EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Mountain/Resort Related Forums › Resorts, Conditions & Travel › Going to College...Need fellow skiers advice!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Going to College...Need fellow skiers advice! - Page 3

post #61 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

Eyup...because they cost less.

 

With job depression affecting education as much as any job, community colleges are able to get a lot of great teachers who need jobs.  You get Phd's actually teaching the classes vs. grad student teachers at the big university teaching the core 1st and 2nd year courses.

 

You get the basic freshmen and sophomore classes done at a community college and then move on to the more costly state university to graduate.  You get the same state university degree and you save a lot of money.  It looks good on your resume as it shows commitment, planning, financial sense and motivation that employers will find attractive.

 

Community colleges have more flexible class schedules so if you need to work (or ski) you can do that, putting away money for the higher cost state school.

Not a bad idea but also not great for everyone. I think at_nyc nailed it in saying that community colleges aren't necessarily good for kids with little to no direction. They'd be better served by having access to the full spectrum of degrees and courses from the very beginning so they can better figure out what they want to major in.

 

Where I went to college (in a large state university that was affordable at the time, just as you suggested), business degrees were part of a separate school that you had to apply separately to by the end of your freshman or sophomore year. I believe there were other degrees and sub-schools like that, too. So if you went to community college and realized that you wanted to pursue a business degree at the flagship state university, you'd be out of luck or end up having to go to school longer, which obviously isn't saving you any money. 

post #62 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by at_nyc View Post

Like I said, if your objective is to take courses, community college is an inexpensive way to get them done. 

 

But undergraduate education is more than taking specific courses. It's also about self-discovery for a teenager. A lot of people don't understand why would any parent pay top dollar to send their kid to MIT and Standford, or for that matter Penn State and Taxas A&M, when undergraduate classes are 200 student in a big hall. Well, you don't meet the future Bill Gate, Mark Zukerberg or their lessor equivalent in a community college!  

 

Granted, not everyone gets so lucky, nor every kid smart enough to reach that level. But college is more than just a collection of courses. That's the biggest difference between colleges, whether it's community, or nitchy liberal art school, or big world class universities. Each kid will fit in a different type. Cheap isn't always cheap when you waste a couple years of the best learning age when the mind is the freshest and most receptive (to ideas, not just book knowlege).  

 

Paying $400,000 to attend Harvard in hopes of meeting Bill Gates (who dropped OUT of Harvard) is a terrible decision.  Study after study (by Harvard MBA's) has shown that getting a good education at local state university is much more cost effective education with equal benefits over the long term.  I'd rather have Western Civ taught by a real PhD in a hall of 100 vs. taught by inexperienced grad student with no teaching skills in a hall of 200.

 

You assume  there is no "self discovery" at a Community College which is wrong and more than a bit arrogant and elitist.  That single mom sitting next to you, working her way through school to get that nursing degree knows a LOT more about life than Richie Rich.

 

There is WAY more life experience in attending a Community College AND a State University than attending a rich kid cocoon and coming out owing $200K and never meeting that rich prince who was going to take you into his retinue.

 

If you've got the money, by all means, go for it but if you don't, don't incur a life's debt. You'll get as good an education and likely more exposure to real life via Community College and State University.

post #63 of 82

Another space where a reality check may be in order.

 

First, most top tier private universities and colleges are a bargain. No one pays "rack rate" unless they can afford it. The average debt coming out of a "top 25" private school school is often a fraction of that carried by someone coming out of many state schools. And it is not because those private schools accept only "rich" kids. Many of the upper tier schools use the power of their endowments and annual giving cash flow to further their social mission of leveling the playing field.

 

Second, do not discount the power of a high quality liberal arts education. Good liberal arts programs offer a good way to explore a range of departments and to graduate with a broad based education. Something likely to be increasingly important IMO.

 

Third, you do not need to go to a name brand school to get a solid education. But picking a school with a great reputation for delivering a great education matters. No matter what, you are investing a lot (time + money) in going to college. It is worth making it a good investment - both academically and experientially. One interesting perspective can be found here.

 

Finally - in the context of the OP's search, I think UBC was an interesting suggestion. Another lesser known and even closer to Whistler option is Quest University. The academic program looks well thought out and solid - if unconventional. It is, however, small. And like any younger institution, it has faced some challenges - but it looks to be a super interesting program. I recently spent some time chatting with a young woman who is a very serious skier and who had just spent a couple blocks (IIRC) on an exchange program at Quest and she was super stoked on the academic program. Another option I did not see mentioned is University of Puget Sound. Great school in a cool location. Tough to beat the combo of educational opportunity/quality and access to skiing (Crystal). And the birthplace of ON3P. Another often overlooked option is The Evergreen State College. Yeah, yeah - hippy dippy reputation. But the educational program seems to turn out some solid grads - and student teacher interaction seems high. (I took some math classes there a few decades ago and the instruction was genuinely world class at the time). It seems the kind of place that delivers whatever education you choose to make it.


Edited by spindrift - 4/23/13 at 5:12pm
post #64 of 82
Quote: You assume  there is no "self discovery" at a Community College which is wrong and more than a bit arrogant and elitist.  That single mom sitting next to you, working her way through school to get that nursing degree knows a LOT more about life than Richie Rich.

 

There is WAY more life experience in attending a Community College AND a State University than attending a rich kid cocoon and coming out owing $200K and never meeting that rich prince who was going to take you into his retinue.

 

irony.gif

 

Talk about assumptions and arrogant proclamations. It seems like there was an element of "one size doesn't fit all" to at_nyc's point, whereas your post reads more like "My way is the only right way" (despite all the new-rich, successful and intellectual folks that would happily attest to the integrity of their private educations). I ask you: Which one is really arrogant and elitist? 

post #65 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

Another space where a reality check may be in order.

 

First, most top tier private universities and colleges are a bargain.

Study after study, with the focus on the ballooning student loan crisis, has found the opposite. That the lower cost state universities provide equal education, equal economic lifetime benefit at a fraction of the cost of the expensive private schools.

 

That's the reality.

 

To this discussion, going to one of the good state universities or colleges in the ski towns would be the best move for the person who asked for advice. They can get a good, cost effective education and pursue their passion.  If out of state, going to one of the community colleges in ski town to establish residency and then moving to the state university at the same or another ski town would be an excellent strategy.

post #66 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeUT View Post

 

Talk about assumptions and arrogant proclamations. It seems like there was an element of "one size doesn't fit all" to at_nyc's point, whereas your post reads more like "My way is the only right way" (despite all the new-rich, successful and intellectual folks that would happily attest to the integrity of their private educations). I ask you: Which one is really arrogant and elitist? 

The assumption was going $200K in debt in hopes of rooming with Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg.  That's like going $200K in debt buying lottery tickets.  And the assumption was that meeting and hanging out with the rich kids was a better life experience...that pretty much defines arrogance and elitism.

 

Now if you do have $200K to burn there is definitely value in going to a school where you will meet the kids of the power brokers. Networking has real value but going into to debt to do it is crazy.

 

Just as likely to meet the rich and famous at that ski resort.

post #67 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

Study after study, with the focus on the ballooning student loan crisis, has found the opposite. That the lower cost state universities provide equal education, equal economic lifetime benefit at a fraction of the cost of the expensive private schools.

 

 

That is a rather broad generalization. I was trying to be a shade more specific and informative. Look at the financial aid policies of the "top 25" private colleges and "top 25" private universities. Most have extremely generous financial aid policies. Many have things like loan caps. By no means would I suggest that these are the only places you can get a great education (and most do not offer very good skiing wink.gif ). But the myth that "name brand" schools are "expensive" is just that - a myth (see this for some info ). If you have real evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it.  There are lots of reasonable roads. I just hate seeing misinformation cause someone to overlook opportunities that might suit them. This may or may not matter to the OP. But again, there are lots of reasonable paths - and reverse snootiness is no more useful than claiming the Ivies are the only schools worth attending.

 

Furthermore, budget cuts (due to decreased state funding)  at many state schools are having lots of side effects. In addition to rapidly escalating fees to make up for that reduced funding, lots of are cutting classes in order to make their budgets balance. Resulting in a world where graduation is increasingly taking 5 years rather than 4. This is a big deal - and worth being aware of in terms of any specific school one is considering. 

 

Oh yeah - I have not done an in depth look - but I have heard solid things about Bellingham too. They certainly pissed of the gov when they solidly raised faculty salaries a year or so ago. Totally smart call for the long haul IMO. 

post #68 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

Second, do not discount the power of a high quality liberal arts education. Good liberal arts programs offer a good way to explore a range of departments and to graduate with a broad based education. Something likely to be increasingly important IMO.

 

Well said spindrift.  So... I got an English degree from Berkeley, and in the 10+ years since then I've had a number of conversations with d-bags who had degrees in fields like business and poly sci who basically inferred that I wasted my time, completely oblivious to the fact that I was/am making quite a bit more money than they were/are.  Effective communication (often through email) and being able to analyze large documents is an underrated skill in many fields.  And it's only getting worse.

post #69 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeUT View Post

irony.gif

 

Talk about assumptions and arrogant proclamations. It seems like there was an element of "one size doesn't fit all" to at_nyc's point, whereas your post reads more like "My way is the only right way" (despite all the new-rich, successful and intellectual folks that would happily attest to the integrity of their private educations). I ask you: Which one is really arrogant and elitist? 

Eagles Pdx's way is more like "the cheapest way is the only right way"! :D

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

And the assumption was that meeting and hanging out with the rich kids was a better life experience...that pretty much defines arrogance and elitism.

Yet another assumption! 

 

It's the SMART kids that you miss meeting in the top tier school! But you don't think that's a better life experience. So we'll have to agree to disagree. ;-) 

post #70 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

That is a rather broad generalization.

More of a consistent conclusion from study after study of correlation between economic lifetime benefit of education.  The cost was much higher at the prestige private schools while the lifetime economic benefit was equal.  This has been a huge topic with the rapid rise in student debt and the current job market.

post #71 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by at_nyc View Post

 

It's the SMART kid that you miss meeting in the top tier school! But you don't think that's a better life experience. So we'll have to agree to disagree. ;-) 


Or you can BE the smart kid and not go $200K in debt and get as good an education and have as good a job history.

post #72 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post


Or you can BE the smart kid and not go $200K in debt and get as good an education and have as good a job history.

Or you could be the big fish in a small pond with limited room to grow

post #73 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by at_nyc View Post

Or you could be the big fish in a small pond with limited room to grow


Debunked by the studies showing the "fish" grew equally over time.    Berkley is a state university $30K for four years, a bargain.  But that is too "small pond" for you.

 

But back to the topic of person wanting a school that's in or near a major ski area. Those are all going to be state schools typically and the person should not have any concerns about getting a good education at those schools. And, once residency is established, they will be cost effective college choices.

post #74 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post


Berkley is a state university $30K for four years...

 

 

Really? Didn't you mean to say something more like "for state residents, fees averaging about $30K per year for each of four years - and about $50K per year for non-residents...."? Or at least something closer to that?

 

Great school. Not anywhere close to $30K total for four years.


Edited by spindrift - 4/23/13 at 7:13pm
post #75 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

The assumption was going $200K in debt in hopes of rooming with Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg.  That's like going $200K in debt buying lottery tickets.  And the assumption was that meeting and hanging out with the rich kids was a better life experience...that pretty much defines arrogance and elitism.

 

Now if you do have $200K to burn there is definitely value in going to a school where you will meet the kids of the power brokers. Networking has real value but going into to debt to do it is crazy.

 

Just as likely to meet the rich and famous at that ski resort.

That is a purposeful simplification of what was an example and not an entire argument. I believe the point was that going to a prestigious university offers you opportunities that you won't find at the community college down the street, and in some cases, the state college a couple hours north.

 

Forget about other students, studying under and working with professors that are at the cutting edge of their fields is certainly better than working with someone with much less knowledge and experience - not that you have to go to a private university for that, but it may be the best way. 

post #76 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

 

That is a rather broad generalization. I was trying to be a shade more specific and informative. Look at the financial aid policies of the "top 25" private colleges and "top 25" private universities. Most have extremely generous financial aid policies. Many have things like loan caps. By no means would I suggest that these are the only places you can get a great education (and most do not offer very good skiing wink.gif ). But the myth that "name brand" schools are "expensive" is just that - a myth (see this for some info ). If you have real evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it.  There are lots of reasonable roads. I just hate seeing misinformation cause someone to overlook opportunities that might suit them. This may or may not matter to the OP. But again, there are lots of reasonable paths - and reverse snootiness is no more useful than claiming the Ivies are the only schools worth attending.

 

Furthermore, budget cuts (due to decreased state funding)  at many state schools are having lots of side effects. In addition to rapidly escalating fees to make up for that reduced funding, lots of are cutting classes in order to make their budgets balance. Resulting in a world where graduation is increasingly taking 5 years rather than 4. This is a big deal - and worth being aware of in terms of any specific school one is considering. 

 

Oh yeah - I have not done an in depth look - but I have heard solid things about Bellingham too. They certainly pissed of the gov when they solidly raised faculty salaries a year or so ago. Totally smart call for the long haul IMO. 

So, wait. You mean, just saying "study after study" over and over again isn't real evidence? 

post #77 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

Berkley is a state university $30K for four years, a bargain.

 

To clarify, Berkeley is a UC and not a state school (public none-the-less), but even so it's crazy how much things can change in a decade.  In the early 2000's my tuition per semester was $1800 - $2400 ... and now it's like $7500 per semester.  Pretty remarkable increase in a relatively limited period of time, eh?  Which only re-inforces the potential value of community colleges in this day and age.

post #78 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post


Debunked by the studies showing the "fish" grew equally over time.    Berkley is a state university $30K for four years, a bargain.  But that is too "small pond" for you.

 

Berkely a community college???

 

I believe that "fact" has been "debunked"! ;-) 

post #79 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

   Berkley is a state university $30K for four years, a bargain.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by at_nyc View Post

Berkely a community college???

 

I believe that "fact" has been "debunked"! ;-) 


Yes..your claim that University of CA at Berkely is a "community college" is totally debunked. 

post #80 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeUT View Post

I believe the point was that going to a prestigious university offers you opportunities that you won't find at the community college down the street, and in some cases, the state college a couple hours north.

Absolutely hanging out with the smartest and richest folks in plushest surroundings certainly presents opportunities and if one can afford it and meet the entrance requirements, one should go for it. But it will, per the studies, not have much effect on your lifetime earnings and you should not incur debt to do it.

 

In this case, all the ski town schools are pretty much state universities and good bargains especially once residency has been established.

post #81 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

 


Yes..your claim that University of CA at Berkely is a "community college" is totally debunked. 

 

Hahaha! That's trademark Eagles Pdx!!! Twisting words to suit his argument!

 

 

Well, let's level the playing field! :D 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

You'll get as good an education and likely more exposure to real life via Community College...

 
post #82 of 82

I'm very late into this thread but you might also want to consider the University of Nevada in Reno.  It is within an hour of Squaw Valley, Alpine Meadows, Sugar Bowl, Heavenly Valley, Mt. Rose and a host of smaller areas.  When I was in college, I would go to class in the morning, ski some afternoons when time allowed and teach skiing on weekends.  Although not prestigious, their engineering, geological sciences and business schools are very good.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Resorts, Conditions & Travel
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Mountain/Resort Related Forums › Resorts, Conditions & Travel › Going to College...Need fellow skiers advice!