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Why be patient at turn transition? - Page 7

post #181 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Yes, and the point with that is that it is not skis that absorbs the major part of the force, it is the snow.

Well actually I don't think the snow has anything to do with the question I answered.

 

It takes less force to bend a longer span of ski than a shorter span. The shorter span of ski is stiffer and resists bending more. 

 

No different than a 2X4. Try to bend an 8 foot section. Easily done! Try to bend a 2 foot section. You ain't gonna move it! No snow needed!

 

the closer the contact points are to the middle of the ski the force it takes to bend it.

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post #182 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Well actually I don't think the snow has anything to do with the question I answered.

 

It takes less force to bend a longer span of ski than a shorter span. The shorter span of ski is stiffer and resists bending more. 

 

No different than a 2X4. Try to bend an 8 foot section. Easily done! Try to bend a 2 foot section. You ain't gonna move it! No snow needed!

 

the closer the contact points are to the middle of the ski the force it takes to bend it.

Correct Atomicman, but I was just trying to point out that if you are then able to bend the ski that amount with less than your body weight, the rest will be supported by the snow. In addition to bend a ski that much on hard snow, you would need an extremely high edge angle.

post #183 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Correct Atomicman, but I was just trying to point out that if you are then able to bend the ski that amount with less than your body weight, the rest will be supported by the snow. In addition to bend a ski that much on hard snow, you would need an extremely high edge angle.

beercheer.gif

post #184 of 200

Seems to me a 170 flex plug boot that is flexed by a strong guy could store some torsional energy.

I don't know how to put numbers to this but I think that if I took a stiff boot and clamped a lever in it, I would be impressed if I let go quickly.

This torsion is purely elastic and is not limited by snow contact like skis.

This energy could be released either by letting the skis "squirt" forward or by standing up or both?

How much can a strong skier flex a stiff boot?

Maybe 15-20 degrees?

post #185 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post

Seems to me a 170 flex plug boot that is flexed by a strong guy could store some torsional energy.

I don't know how to put numbers to this but I think that if I took a stiff boot and clamped a lever in it, I would be impressed if I let go quickly.

This torsion is purely elastic and is not limited by snow contact like skis.

This energy could be released either by letting the skis "squirt" forward or by standing up or both?

How much can a strong skier flex a stiff boot?

Maybe 15-20 degrees?

 

 

Isn't the point of a stiff boot so the ski will bend and not the boot.  Wouldn't you have to max out the ski's and snow's flex before the boot would flex?

post #186 of 200
i feel that the point of a stiffer boot is so that any fore/aft/lateral movements made by the skier are more quickly transmitted to the skis than they would be in a softer one. also, a stiffer boot provides more instant terrain feedback from the snow.

zenny
post #187 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

i feel that the point of a stiffer boot is so that any fore/aft/lateral movements made by the skier are more quickly transmitted to the skis than they would be in a softer one. also, a stiffer boot provides more instant terrain feedback from the snow.

zenny

 

I agree and maybe I didn't say it well.  The way you get the immediate feedback to the skis is by the boot NOT absorbing any fore/aft/lateral movement (i.e. no flex) and it going to the ski, which isn't as stiff as the grade of boot mentioned.  Therefore, the ski will react and/or flex, well before the boot does.  With regards to feedback from the ski to the skier, it is the same thing; since the boot isn't really wanting to budge, you should feel it instantly.

 

You might be able to crush a 170 flex boot in the store snapped into your bindings and standing on a hard surface, but I don't see how or why you would want the boot or any boot to be able to be crushed.

 

Also, if it flexes forward, wouldn't it rebound aft?  Isn't that in the opposite direction we're wanting to "squirt"?

post #188 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 I would be impressed if I let go quickly.

 

In a real world model the forward pressure is removed gradually during the release.

post #189 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post

Seems to me a 170 flex plug boot that is flexed by a strong guy could store some torsional energy.

I don't know how to put numbers to this but I think that if I took a stiff boot and clamped a lever in it, I would be impressed if I let go quickly.

This torsion is purely elastic and is not limited by snow contact like skis.

This energy could be released either by letting the skis "squirt" forward or by standing up or both?

How much can a strong skier flex a stiff boot?

Maybe 15-20 degrees?

Doesn't that depend on how fast you are going and how tight the turn radius is compared to the natural sidecut of the ski. Tighter turn, faster speed more ability to flex the boot! 

post #190 of 200

To me this whole thing is about mastering the art of how to subtly apply and release a shit load of pressure while not only maintaining, but picking up speed. Its a glorious feeling. When you do it right or wrong, you immediately feel it. Its the same aspect I use in skateboarding, biking and skiing. To me this subtly is most easy to notice pumping your board around a pool in a skateboard park. But please, don't try skateboarding, there are already to many people in the parks. Also, trust me, surfing sucks, don't try that either.

post #191 of 200

Yah...surfing sucks.

Cost me a tooth last summer.

JJ is right about the thrill of controlling big forces with small movements.

It wouldn't be thrilling without the chance of it going wrong.

 

I'm thinking that the energy stored in the boots as you compress at the apex helps pick you back up as you (carefully) release.

I have two pair of Atomic B Tech boots for my ultra wide feet.

One is 90 flex and one is 120 flex.

When it is warm the 90 flex ones feel like I could telemark in them without pivoting bindings and don't help at all at the end of the turn.

At least that's my story until somebody like Jamt or Atomicman convinces me I'm wrong.

A 30 year career as a professional engineer has taught me the value of being willing to change a theory if better data becomes available.

This ain't religion!

 

I think one equipment upgrade that I would be willing to pay a lot for is boots that don't radically change their flex with temperature.

My old magnesium Daleboots controlled the flex with steel springs and I loved that aspect of their performance.

Fit?....not so much!

post #192 of 200
dakine, i think what "picks you back up" is the fact that the skis travel faster than our cms, and pass us during transition...our ankles open as a result. the boots return to their neutral position during this, but i feel they play a smaller role in extending the joints when the turn dynamics are considered in their totality....

zenny
post #193 of 200

Yah, given some of the recent threads I should have said something about extension, maintaining ski contact with the snow and shin pressure on the boots.

Nevertheless, boot stiffness plays a role in the dorsiflection process so discussed in the "Do racers flex their ankles" thread.

When I ski my 90 flex boots on a warm day I'm very conscious of using my calf muscles to keep my ankles from flexing too much.

With my 120 flex boots I can "relax" into the boots without having to keep from overflexing.

When it is zero out and the boots get really stiff I get a whiff of real plug boot country.

post #194 of 200
lol! i heard dat!!! 0* outside + my 140 salomon x3 medium plugs=rigidity... biggrin.gif

zenny
post #195 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post

Yah, given some of the recent threads I should have said something about extension, maintaining ski contact with the snow and shin pressure on the boots.

Nevertheless, boot stiffness plays a role in the dorsiflection process so discussed in the "Do racers flex their ankles" thread.

When I ski my 90 flex boots on a warm day I'm very conscious of using my calf muscles to keep my ankles from flexing too much.

With my 120 flex boots I can "relax" into the boots without having to keep from overflexing.

When it is zero out and the boots get really stiff I get a whiff of real plug boot country.

NO you don't!  Just think of a Plug at that Temperature!  Basically an Ice Sculpture!

post #196 of 200

Quote:I don't agree with the statement at all. I believe one of the marks of a truly expert skier is someone who can and does control the duration of "neutral" at will.  There are times I want instantaneous hoiokup of the new outside ski inside edge and there are many times I want to float an progressively engage the edge and extend the time I stay "neutral "

the ability to vary this is an advanced skill and is extremely useful.

 

I see the main reason to be patient at transition is to avoid rotary movements of the feet/skis, if the goal is to carve the next turn. Most folks who rush the transiton and the beginning of the new turn have difficulty not rotating the feet and ski and therefore can't engage the edge progressively which causes skidding.

 

Beautiful turn in the photo.

 

very

Sorry...I am still getting the hang of adding images, clips and quotes to this site. To my mind, this might be one of best advanced turns ever caught by a camera. The skier is Casey Bouius, TD at Sunshine Village and a member of the CSIA Demo Team. This montage appears in the new CSIA manual released last year. I use it to show other instructors and very advanced skiers what happens just before, during and just after the transition from turn to turn. Respectively, that would be the 2nd, 3rd and 4th images in the montage. Personally I think it is important to move from "edge to edge, arc to arc" as the Canadians like to say in one movement. Too many skiers pause for a split second in the middle which leaves them on flat skis at what can be pretty high speeds. The skiers I help seem to do much better when they make the entire transition movement in one fell swoop.

post #197 of 200

Very nice skiing.

Nothing like gates to teach you to get from one edge to the other quickly.

In a gliding section though with some room between the gates that extended  float at neutral is fast.

post #198 of 200

wow- that says it all...

post #199 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post

Yah, given some of the recent threads I should have said something about extension, maintaining ski contact with the snow and shin pressure on the boots.
Nevertheless, boot stiffness plays a role in the dorsiflection process so discussed in the "Do racers flex their ankles" thread.
When I ski my 90 flex boots on a warm day I'm very conscious of using my calf muscles to keep my ankles from flexing too much.
With my 120 flex boots I can "relax" into the boots without having to keep from overflexing.
When it is zero out and the boots get really stiff I get a whiff of real plug boot country.
why..... would you.... ski a 90 boot....?
post #200 of 200

@razie...

Plenty of really soft snow.

I used to really like my Flexons on those days.

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