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Skiing moguls - some advice needed on issues that I've identified. - Page 2

post #31 of 49

Blake, thanks for the videos.  It's fun to watch you guys rip it up.  You look great.

 

What's the deal with how you are holding your poles in the bumps?   It looks like you are gripping them halfway down the grip.  I've never seen that before.  Is it to effectively shorten the poles for bump skiing rather than use a shorter pole?

post #32 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake Saunders View Post

NEcoach, I'm having a little trouble telling if you mean some of your posts as a counterpoint, or what....

 

I don't think that what you're saying changes anything about what I said. 

 

My version is a high speed version compared to what I wrote to fuzzybabybunny.  I am saying that fuzzybabybunny should localize the turning as much as possible on the top of a bump.  The top of the bump should be the place to try to do most of the turning.  Of course it might be happening some before the top and some after... it depends on speed (but I am trying to describe what should happen when going really slow since speed control is an important theme here). 

 

I have skied with world cuppers too.  I wrote a little about that on the other thread (Heluva's freeskiing video thread). 

 

 

NEcoach's point is to let you know that you can't possibly know as much about skiing as he does, particularly what's 'right'. That's pretty much all there is to it.

post #33 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

NEcoach's point is to let you know that you can't possibly know as much about skiing as he does, particularly what's 'right'. That's pretty much all there is to it.

 

Blake's post was a little confusing because the description didn't match the example video. I took the time to provide a description that matched the example. Why is that a problem?

post #34 of 49

Because you have so little substantive to add to anything you post in while managing to offend nearly all. Antics is all you're offering.

post #35 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Because you have so little substantive to add to anything you post in while managing to offend nearly all. Antics is all you're offering.

 

If a description of mogul specific turn timing technique used by all top WC bumpers is not substantive I don't know what qualifies. 

post #36 of 49

For me, the real secret to mogul skiing is to do it where nobody can watch.biggrin.gif

post #37 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by NECoach View Post

 

If a description of mogul specific turn timing technique used by all top WC bumpers is not substantive I don't know what qualifies. 

 

you don't tell us anything about skiing bumps, you only link a video. How about acknowledging that both zipper line and examples like Mike Rogan's are both valid.

post #38 of 49
tball:

Blake, thanks for the videos.  It's fun to watch you guys rip it up.  You look great.

 

What's the deal with how you are holding your poles in the bumps?   It looks like you are gripping them halfway down the grip.  I've never seen that before.  Is it to effectively shorten the poles for bump skiing rather than use a shorter pole?

 

Thanks : )

 

I did some experimenting with hands this year to figure out how to get them to be quiter, more easily.  I have always thought of hands as a real annoying thing to try to hold still in the bumps.  Gripping lower like that helps me to keep my hands in the right position relative to my body, when my body is absorbing super low.  It allows me to pole plant in a 'less than perfect' spot in the bumps without having my hand end up by my ear or something.  Holding the regular grip it's more important for me to get the plant on the right spot on the back sides.  Holding below the grip makes it so that I don't have to pay as much attention and if I land a plant on the top of the bump, it matters less. 

 

The idea is about effectively shortening your poles, but keeping them long enough to still be usable outside of the bumps when I move my grip up.  I think Jonny Mosely used to hold below his grips. 

post #39 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

you don't tell us anything about skiing bumps, you only link a video. How about acknowledging that both zipper line and examples like Mike Rogan's are both valid.

 

 

I gave a specific WC mogul technique description. It is so specific it only applies to bumps and it is rarely talked about. I also linked a video that has the best bump poling example I have found. But you don't consider these to be substantive posts that relate to bumps.

 

And what does Mike Rogan have to do this?

post #40 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by NECoach View Post

 

If a description of mogul specific turn timing technique used by all top WC bumpers is not substantive I don't know what qualifies. 

 

NECoach, your desire to help is commendable. That said, zipperline is way beyond the OP's capabilities right now. If you'd like to help the OP, I would recommend posting videos of skiing that the OP could actually achieve. In the past at epicski we've covered topics like the green line, blue line and black line in bumps. This skier's probably ready to start taking the green line (IE planting on the backside, turning on the top, and gliding to the next bump).

post #41 of 49

NE, I'll refrain from comment on your posts. 

post #42 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

That said, zipperline is way beyond the OP's capabilities right now.

 

I have not seen the OP ski so it is possible that you are right. But at some point he will be ready so I will provide a path for learning the type of mogul skiing that Blake demonstrates in his video.

 

 

The student should have good skiing fundamentals and be capable of skiing a blue slope in control with parallel turns.
 
Skiing a tighter mogul line also requires - 
 
1 - quick short turns
2 - foot containment skills
3 - excellent pole skills
 
All of these should be practiced on groomers. 
 
After you have that list perfected on groomers find a green or blue slope with moguls to work on absorption & extension skills which are critical for mogul skiing. About 50% of speed control in moguls comes from absorption & extension.
 
Drill 1 - traverse across the moguls absorbing them by bending your knees when the ski tips touch a mogul. Progressively bend the legs so you reach maximum knee flexion at the top of the mogul. During the absorption you use strong foot containment by pulling your heels up towards your rear. This will point the ski tips down the back of the mogul. Next step is driving your feet down the backside of the mogul and into the trough by extending your legs so they are very long like standing straight up. Try to keep the skis on the snow as you traverse across the run. 
 
Drill 2 - The bottom of a mogul run can be a good place to practice fall line absorption & extension if you have a flat run out. Start with one or two mogulss. If you can absorb one or two moguls add another on the next pass. Keep doing this until you can handle 4 or 5 at a time. This is a good drill for increasing the speed of absorption & extension and foot containment.
 
After you have absorption & extension working start skiing 2 to 3 moguls at a time. You start the new turn when you hit the front of the next bump. By the top of the bump your skis are pointed directly down the fall line and then you finish the turn on the backside of the bump. This turn timing is a well kept secret within mogul coaching. If you wait to start the turn until you are on the top of the bump you will be too late. When you can ski 3 moguls in control, double it, and double it again, and again always focused on staying in complete control. If your short turns aren't fast enough go back to the groomed and practice to make them faster. If your absorption & extension isn't working go back to traversing moguls until you can smoothly traverse the run. 
 
Tip 1 - Concentrate on absorbing the moguls with your legs instead of your upper body by keeping a straighter back and using full retraction and extension of the legs. 
 
Tip 2 - Don't let the moguls dictate your turn rhythm. Turn when you need to in order to maintain speed control. That might mean making two turns on a large mogul or throwing in an extra turn between moguls.
 
Tip 3 - Look 2 to 3 moguls ahead and let your peripheral vision take care of the mogul right in front of you.
 
Tip 4 - Learn to jump over deep rutted troughs and misshaped mogul faces. When skiing a tighter line there are times when jumping over an obstacle will save the run.
post #43 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by NECoach View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake Saunders View Post

 

I am convinced that all aspects of skiing are mental.  The mind controls movement, and confidence, and know how etc... 

 

If you're trying to stay in a line, you need to control your speed.  Try standing (still) on the highest point on a mogul, in the line, where you would go over it if you were skiing the line.  If your boots are at the top then your tails and tips will be in the air.  Notice how if you put both poles in the snow to hold yourself in place you can rotate without friction and without edges catching from left to right as long as you keep your tips and tails pretty much in the air (pivot and keep your feet together).  For a begginer trying to stay in a line, you need to do all of your turning at this point where your boots are on top.  Since speed control is the main concern here, get your skis really sideways at this point and slide down the backside of the bump sideways into the deepest part of the hole (the deepest part of the rut line).  Then when your boots get to the highest point again, reverse direction.  Spend most of your time on one set of edges or the other.  Your skis should only point down the hill for a split second. This will maximize speed control and maximize your chance of making through the line for more than just a bump or two.  As you improve, the pivot should become less extreme and your turns should have a little more time of skis going down the hill and less time with them strcitly accross the hill. 

 

I don't mean to post this too much, but I think it's relevant... and I like going for a lot of youtube hits LOLsmile.gif

 

You can see a high-speed example of what I am talking about if you go to 4:14 in this video.  Those turns are pretty strict form and stuff and you can see where my turn takes place and you can also see my skis go sideways after that point especially on the last couple bumps

 

You start the new turn when you hit the front of the next bump. By  the top of the bump your skis are pointed directly down the fall line and then you finish the turn on the backside of the bump. This turn timing is a well kept secret within mogul coaching. If you wait to start the turn until you are on the top of the bump you will be too late.

 

WC mogulists are skiing at 35MPH and any delay leads to blowing out of the course.

Lest you overlook that little Jewel, I must point it out.  

 

I hesitated to give advice in a mogul thread, since I suck at bump skiing, especially since you say you have been skiing a lot of bumps lately, and I seldom get the chance to ski bumps (blind leading the blind, teaching you grandmother how to suck eggs, etc.).    However, as has been mentioned above, maybe if you are really not ready for the zipper line, you can relate to my recent experiences.

 

There are a lot of ways to ski bumps, and I've tried many of them.   When you are good, you can do whatever you want, but there are easy roads to getting good and hard roads too.

 

Thirty years ago, when I was forced (yes forced to go through them because they were between where I was and where I wanted to be, or because the only steep runs had been bumped up) to ski moguls, I just skied through them the same way I skied everything else, either ignoring the bumps or attempting to miss the bumps and stay in the smoothest line.  For a strong atheletic adrenaline junky with good reflexes, this works, but it has its downside.  You end up bouncing off the bumps like a pin ball at great speed, until you have to brake (which can be quite challenging in big icy bumps at speed) or until you reach the bottom with your legs really feeling the burn.  Even though it can give one quite a feeling of accomplishment, I decided that skiing moguls carving from the back seat on the tails of my SG skis is not the best approach. 

 

Using Slalom skis did improve things - a bit.

 

Eventually I got the idea that maybe I was doing it all wrong, and took a look around at what other ways of skiing there were that might be more applicable to moguls.  The first thing I thought was I had to slow down, so I tried that.   It worked well enough for soft bumps, but skiing in between the bumps in steep ice moguls illustrated that my speed control still needed a little work.  I have to mention that when they say ski slowly they mean slower than slowly; they mean start out learning to ski moguls at a pace similar to a brisk walk, certainly no more than a comfortable running pace.

 

Next came the idea that instead of carving I should be pivoting my skis.   That was just too hard on my old knees.

 

Next came the idea of carving my turns, but not making a clean (as in arc-2-arc) railroad track like turns,  carving the turns to kill speed with the front of the ski well weighted but scraping and smearing the turn.  That helped - a bit.

 

The next advance came when I read something here on Epic, I think it was Nail, not sure what the school method was, but one of his main themes was to ski right over the tops of the moguls instead of in between them.   Although there may have been a lot to argue about in regards to Nail and Co.'s "method" and their prostelitzing of it (and arguments abounded here on Epicski),  I have to give them credit for enlightening me by introducing me to that way of skiing moguls.  With that approach, speed control was easy-peasy: make a speed control turn on the way up the mogul, forget about trying to control speed on the way down, just get your tips down when you crest the bump, and make sure to get the tips well down into the hole between it and the next bump, and line up for the turn you're about to make going up the next bump.  

 

I have since noticed, when skiing some tight icy moguls that were really spaced too close together to really follow my chosen path over every top with rhythm, I would sometimes slip into my old ways and spend some time on a different line -skiing between bumps for a while, but even when skiing in the rut line I was blending in some of what I leaned by skiing over the tops with that speed control turn on the way up; I would go partially up the next mogul absorbing speed.  The way I was using the next bump to kill speed, by partially riding up it sideways in kind of a smeared turn, is something I probably would not have done without first spending some time skiing up every bump in a speed controlling turn instead of skiing around the bumps.

 

So there you have it, ski S  L  O  W  L  Y,   get your skis well on edge and do a not-locked-in turn that is carved in the sense that you are really digging in the edges, but not carved in the sense of a railroad track arced turn,  make a speed-control turn as you go up the mogul,  stuff your tips down the hole on the other side of the mogul.   Practice that enough, and THEN you can forgetaboutit and ski moguls any way you like without getting knocked around.

 

These experts are probably right about the pole planting, I'm not really big on pole plants, and, come to think of it a lot of my skiing lately, including mogul skiing, was done without poles.

 

Disclaimer: I still suck at mogul skiing.

post #44 of 49

Or you could try this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAOOqzqcO3Y

 

or this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUN_HK0cR8A

 

The guy in yellow's pretty good, eh? smile.gif

post #45 of 49

markojp, Moseley's advice of jumping to the outside ski on each turn comes across as bizarre to me since you're destroying your pressure control and causing abrupt changes to your stance/balance on each turn. Also not aligned with his advice that you can't ski slowly in bumps (though perhaps that's simply because his tactics don't allow for it). That micro-lesson doesn't really align with all the tactics I've worked with in CSIA...

 

I'll try it Thursday/Friday. duck.gif

post #46 of 49
I thought it was pretty interesting as well for the same reason you mention, Met. We don't know who he is teaching. There's always a 'why' of doing a specific progression for a group or individual client. we can guess of course, but i Just thought it was an interesting take on things, In the end, I'm sure he'll get the 'simultaneous yet independent' footwork that I'm assuming he's working toward with his group.
post #47 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

markojp, Moseley's advice of jumping to the outside ski on each turn comes across as bizarre to me since you're destroying your pressure control and causing abrupt changes to your stance/balance on each turn. Also not aligned with his advice that you can't ski slowly in bumps (though perhaps that's simply because his tactics don't allow for it). That micro-lesson doesn't really align with all the tactics I've worked with in CSIA...

 

I'll try it Thursday/Friday. duck.gif

 

My guess is that he is exaggerating to get his students to commit to transferring balance and weight to the outside ski. If he is teaching WC mogul skiing technique than his comment on speed rings true to me. Slow to a WC mogul skier is fast to a recreational skier. 

post #48 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake Saunders View Post

 

Thanks : )

 

I did some experimenting with hands this year to figure out how to get them to be quiter, more easily.  I have always thought of hands as a real annoying thing to try to hold still in the bumps.  Gripping lower like that helps me to keep my hands in the right position relative to my body, when my body is absorbing super low.  It allows me to pole plant in a 'less than perfect' spot in the bumps without having my hand end up by my ear or something.  Holding the regular grip it's more important for me to get the plant on the right spot on the back sides.  Holding below the grip makes it so that I don't have to pay as much attention and if I land a plant on the top of the bump, it matters less. 

 

The idea is about effectively shortening your poles, but keeping them long enough to still be usable outside of the bumps when I move my grip up.  I think Jonny Mosely used to hold below his grips. 

 

Interesting.  Do you keep your straps adjusted the same all the time?  If so, they would need to be pretty loose in your upper grip position I'm guessing.   You've obviously thought about this and practiced a lot and the end result is fantastic.

 

Another question if you don't mind: If you had just used shorter poles, where do you think that hurts you most outside the bumps?   I've always used a little shorter poles for this reason and now you've got me wondering at what cost.

post #49 of 49
tball:

Interesting.  Do you keep your straps adjusted the same all the time?  If so, they would need to be pretty loose in your upper grip position I'm guessing.   You've obviously thought about this and practiced a lot and the end result is fantastic.

 

I keep the straps adjusted the same all the time and they are totally loose when I have my hand up on the grip.  The position of my hands in relation to the grip when I am skiing moguls, is that I have my index finger just over the lowest edge of the grip.  So my index finger is on the grip but the rest of my hand is below the grip.  My hands are still in the straps when in this position.  For what it's worth, I am definitely going to keep gripping my poles this way because it really makes a difference.  I didn't have to experiment much with it at all to realize that it was better in the moguls after moving my grip down. 

 

tball:

Another question if you don't mind: If you had just used shorter poles, where do you think that hurts you most outside the bumps?   I've always used a little shorter poles for this reason and now you've got me wondering at what cost.

 

I'm not sure how ski shops measure poles (whether they include the tip below the basket or not).  I just measured mine from the very bottom tip below the basket to the very top of the handle and it was 45 inches.  I am 6' 3/4" tall. 

 

When I stand up striaght and hold my poles on the regular grip (now not counting the part below the basket as if it were in snow) my elbow is at about a 45 degree angle.  When I then move my grip down to where it is when I'm skiing moguls, my arm is close to being straight.  If I cut my poles to that length, I would be planting with pretty straight arms outside of the bumps, especially when skiing something steep due to reaching downhill to plant.  I think it'd just be too short everywhere except the bumps though.  I think it'd be pretty evenly awkward accross the board through different types of non-mogul terrain. 

 

I use pretty deep absorption in the moguls (especially our moguls).  When I am absorbing an extra-large mogul, I am probably about 4 feet tall or so.  I am messing around with a measuring tape here since I measured my poles.... When I get in an absorbing type of position and I am 4 feet tall or less... if I wanted a pole that would put my elbow at a 90 degree angle while my upper arm is perpendicular to the floor, that pole would have to be about 27 inches long.  The ideal pole size for me skiing moguls might then be like 30 inches long or something.  That's pretty ridiculously short.  If I tried to ski other terrain like that, I would have to bend down to touch my pole to the snow.  It seems kind of crazy to even consider a 30 inch pole, or to consider having 2 pairs of poles, so the moving of my grip is my way of compromising. 

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