I believe someone posted a picture at some point on epicski of a wedge skier--and then posted a picture below where they cut the flat ski into a parallel position. The point was to show that a wedge turn does contain the genesys of good parallel turns. That picture would be relevant now, but I have no idea where it is!
Why no counter in wedge turns? - Page 5
NECoach, you might as well save your time (and sanity). What you are arguing against here is the highest level of PSIA dogma. None of them are ever going to admit the possibility that you might even be partially right. To do so would cause the house of cards to start to crumble. And the foundation is none too solid to begin with.
If the foundation is poor, let it crumble.
Isn't it fascinating that this unskilled picking up of the ski is frequently observed in the top WC SL and GS technicians?
Is it possible that in the context of racing the fastest way to move from one turn to the next is to completely eliminate the current base of support by lifting the current outside ski? Wouldn't this cause an immediate lateral move with zero resistance from the outside leg?
You're speaking of flexing the outside leg. Probably the other leg is going to be extended to some degree. I mean how else are you going to get off your inside edge? I mean this is just a variant of the lateral movement. Say you're finishing a right turn, ready to initiate a left turn. Your body is to the right of your skis (unless you've already initiated the lateral movement) You can pick up your left ski if you want but it isn't going to release your edge and move you onto your left edges.
I think you'll see just about anything that is possible at some time or other in a high level racing event. Just about everything that is "wrong" can be useful at some time or in some situation.
We're way off topic here (counter in a wedge turn?), don't you think?'
With all due respect I don't think you know what a gliding wedge is. I don't think I know any PSIA instructors who are trying to eradicate it from their skiing.
Think about what you just said a moment.
I agree with the above poster. This has drifted way off topic and has become absurd.
- 9,314 Posts. Joined 10/2004
- Location: New England
- Select All Posts By This User
Once again an epic technique discussion has turned into someone trying to prove that they are better and smarter than everyone else. Well "prove" is the wrong word, "claim" is better.
Constructive discussion has gotten more common recently, but it seems it just takes one belligerent know-it-all to derail it.
Funny how they're the one using the "trolling" accusations, when everyone else here is trying to have civil discourse.
So lets go with this is a do over...
I think there is counter. It is subtle compared to more dynamic parallel skiing due to the slower speeds. Many times when people are in a wedge, they are on gentler terrain too.
If leg rotation is used, doesn't that imply at least some degree of counter? I mean if body rotation were such that it cancelled out leg rotation wouldn't that equal...body rotation(?), which I've always felt was a mechanism not to be fostered, particularly at this critical level when habits are becoming ingrained?
- 1,447 Posts. Joined 1/2008
- Location: Massachusetts
- Select All Posts By This User
Please do not resort to personal attacks. Doing so does not help get your point across.
Q: Is a fundamental principal of high level offensive turns parallel skis?
Disagree. Or at least it's a lot less "fundamental" than things like releasing your edges to transition, moving your COM into the new turn, and balancing against the outside ski (or skis) through all phases of the turn. If you feel that having your skis parallel is more important than those things, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Getting back to the original question in the thread:
Depends on how you define "counter". :-)
I've been told the legs should turn more than the upper body. But there shouldn't be an active counter-rotation or muscular twist of the skis -- you should 'ski into' the wedge and/or countered position.
I think that leg rotation is an important skill to develop at this level, particularly since it is so significant in upper level skiing. I've always thought that active guidance was an component of the wedge turn and that it helps to create the wedge christie. There is no active counter rotation as I understand it. The rotation of the two legs in their sockets effectively counteract the rotation of each other. Skiing into a countered position I should think involves leg rotation. Its closer to the role of leg rotation in advanced skiing where the leg rotation does not necessarily guide the skis but instead acts against the upper body to create the countered position.