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Technical Free Skiing Videos - Page 14

post #391 of 495
Superb skiing Heluva. Very motivating for most of us to try and aspire too. You' be taken some shots from some posters. But I haven' t seen video from those who think your skiing is deficient.

I give you a ton of credit for the videos you contribute. You are extremely transparent by showing us your skiing. I will concede that a trained MA eye can still have credibility without the ability to demonstrate, but I 'm of the opinion that if you take a super aggressive tone of negativity you need to illustrate the corrections.

When I watch your skiing It looks like HH's , but I stand corrected he' s a has been that can't ski! You're a tremendous skier the lines in the snow prove it.
post #392 of 495

   Perhaps everyone that provides MA should first have to prove their abilities via video, which first would have to be approved via  MA...but only from people who have already had MA on their vids.........ad infinitum!!  ROTF.gif

 

 

   zenny


Edited by zentune - 4/21/13 at 6:06pm
post #393 of 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Round turns View Post

Superb skiing Heluva. Very motivating for most of us to try and aspire too. You' be taken some shots from some posters. But I haven' t seen video from those who think your skiing is deficient.

I give you a ton of credit for the videos you contribute. You are extremely transparent by showing us your skiing. I will concede that a trained MA eye can still have credibility without the ability to demonstrate, but I 'm of the opinion that if you take a super aggressive tone of negativity you need to illustrate the corrections.

When I watch your skiing It looks like HH's , but I stand corrected he' s a has been that can't ski! You're a tremendous skier the lines in the snow prove it.

 

 

I don't think there's anyone who's claimed Mr. Harb can't ski, but whatever... this is getting pretty worn out.

post #394 of 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
Well said.  Rotary skills are not natural to me either, full body pivots may be, but UB/LB separated rotary movements take a lot of practice, as you say.

 

Try this experiment. Ask someone in your household to turn in a 360 with their feet very close together. Then ask them to make the same 360 but with a bigger turn. I just did it with my wife and she showed precise ILS without a 2nd thought. The first move was always to twist the leg in the direction of the turn separated from UB movement at the pelvis. Throughout the day we make independent leg rotary movements. Cross your legs, sit on the john, or show your best dance moves. Rotary movements are so natural we don't even think about them on dryland.

 

Something happens to hinder this natural lower body rotary movement on skis. What could it be?

post #395 of 495
There are a lot of very bad dancers.... I'd say most. I think James Brown had the rotary down!smile.gif
post #396 of 495

I do have to say... having watched one of the original videos again, some of the stuff written in this thread is a bit much.  Clearly Heluva is a good skier, even if his style (or methodology or whatever) isn't your cup of tea.  I seriously doubt he would fall apart in steep terrain and/or more difficult conditions.

post #397 of 495
Thread Starter 

...Been watching the conversation... if those interested are going to do a comparison MA between Josh and I, please get his permission. I have absolutely nothing against him, and consider him a friend who I hope to share a beer and a burger with again someday. We differ on technique and probably skiing goals, but I don't alienate people because of something so trivial. He's a strong skier who skis very well in the terrain he chooses. Very few here can match his strength on any terrain. Don't pit our skiing against each other to serve your own motives. We skied together 5+(?) years ago and both have improved drastically since then. We were both strong skiers then, and are even stronger skiers now.

 

Also... Those who question my resolve to improve; shouldn't. I listen to every comment, and more importantly the criticisms, and learn from them, regardless of the source. I've received a lot of really negative, malicious feedback... and used it all. SkiDude, I don't question your observations, just your delivery and your motives for the delivery you have chosen... which I think is fairly clear. That said, SkiDude, if you actually do want to educate me, which I am very receptive of, send me a PM/email and we can carry on from there. Perhaps I can gain another mentor; if not I will use what I can.

 

Those who know me will attest to my commitment to improve my skiing. I didn't take 30+ minutes of video this season for no reason. Trust me, it is likely that I have watched it more times and more critically than anyone here. My most regular outside feedback comes from current and former FIS/NCAA coaches, very recent former US ski team coaches (interestingly, not the one you're all thinking), and occasionally an Aussie d-team member who I have the utmost respect for... and they don't blow sunshine up anyone's ass. As I said in earlier posts I haven't spent any time in a course in years, that is the next challenge, and it will get the same focus as technique has. Bumps... trees... powder... I adapt as they come. I don't focus on them - just ski them when they get in the way.

 

I'm not really into mudslinging over systems... nor am I into labels (which is why I didn't use any in the OP). There are a lot of GREAT skiers who have come up through many different avenues. Despite the differences in origin, they all have a lot in common - something I have learned from my non-PMTS colleagues/coaches. I used PMTS to combat the deficiencies in my skiing several years ago to put my skiing closer to the realm of world class skiers. I don't intend to abandon that method either, as I feel it fits well into extremely high level skiing. What I want is to be a very good skier, and I'm working to get there with the help of a lot of knowledgeable people, who actually want to see me improve, as opposed to those who are knowledgeable who only want to attack and discredit me. 

 

If there is anyone here who doesn't respect, or at least understand that, then we don't have much to talk about. I will continue to improve regardless.

post #398 of 495
Quote:

Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

 

Also... Those who question my resolve to improve; shouldn't. I listen to every comment, and more importantly the criticisms, and learn from them, regardless of the source. I've received a lot of really negative, malicious feedback... and used it all.

 

 

I am glad to have been wrong on that.

post #399 of 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by NECoach View Post

 

Try this experiment. Ask someone in your household to turn in a 360 with their feet very close together. Then ask them to make the same 360 but with a bigger turn. I just did it with my wife and she showed precise ILS without a 2nd thought. The first move was always to twist the leg in the direction of the turn separated from UB movement at the pelvis. Throughout the day we make independent leg rotary movements. Cross your legs, sit on the john, or show your best dance moves. Rotary movements are so natural we don't even think about them on dryland.

 

Something happens to hinder this natural lower body rotary movement on skis. What could it be?

When you put skis on for the first time don't feel steady.  The natural thing to do when feeling unsteady is to stop moving until everything calms down, even brace yourself somewhat.  Freeze even*.  Eventually you manage to slide and not fall over so the last thing you want to do is change anything about how you are standing because your instinct tells you that's going to throw off balance, again. So to point the skis in a new direction the natural instinct is to use your entire body as the least disruptive thing to do.

 

Is suspect most people here have been skiing since they were walking so it all seems natural.  It's no more natural than hitting a golf ball, trust me!

 

*Which is the natural response most people have when encountering a patch of ice when walking.

post #400 of 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLF7 View Post

Is suspect most people here have been skiing since they were walking so it all seems natural.  It's no more natural than hitting a golf ball, trust me!

 

Rotary is natural. Skiing is not! 

post #401 of 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by NECoach View Post

 

Rotary is natural. Skiing is not! 

Ergo rotary on skis is not natural.

post #402 of 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLF7 View Post

Ergo rotary on skis is not natural.

Agree, rotary with little friction fore-aft is not natural. However, I suspect that a reaction to try to rotate the skis is natural.

post #403 of 495

   Upper rotary is natural. Upper/lower separation takes some amount of training to get it right. Whether on skis or not.

 

   zenny

post #404 of 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
 On the second thou...wether i ski like Hoji, Ligety or a total schlep....it wont change the analysis of Helvua's skiing....regardless of how I ski, Heluva's skiing, is still his skiing.
 
This statement is dubious. If an observer cannot ski like the subject then he must rely are external observations and information to analyse the subject's internal muscle movements that result in the outcome seen in the video. This course of action often results in inaccurate analysis. If the observer cannot make the turns then he cannot state with authority what it takes to do it. The best he can do is guess or parrot what someone else has said. 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

Its true that in real race courses the VB changes......but the question was directed at a skier like Heluva, where it never changes.  Its because in a race that turns change, that makes Heluva's skiing weak...and not what a real racer looks like or is trained like.  I already raised this need for versatility by racers.

 

IMO the most difficult demonstration of technical skills needed for carving is to consistently bend a ski into a much tighter radius through precise movements.  The ability to demonstrate the same turn shape size and speed while going for maximum ski performance is the test. The outcome shows that the OP can make any size or shape carved turn because he has mastered the most difficult test or carving skill


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

Because the VB will constant (identical) in size/shape and relative postion within the turn, turn after turn for a given radius/pitch/speed....where as with real bumps each one is different in size, shape and position within the turn....hence you cant just have 1 memorised movement pattern that you repeat over and over.  You need to have your edging working idnepently of your F/A, rotational/lateral balance, pressure control etc....so all can be adapted as required. 

 

If you developed each of these skills independlty, then doing this is not as hard as it may sound.  However if you developed these as one move, or a "Primary Move"...then it is very difficult to uncouple these things....as you dont have the basics....lots of work to build those basics up.

 

This statement is one example that supports my hunch that you do not understand how the OP is training. The other program teaches edging F/A pressure control and the upper body stuff independently. They do not teach one primary move as you state above but multiple primary movementS with supplementary upper body movements to support those multiple primary movementS.

post #405 of 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

Stick with it, you'll get there.

 

Heluva claimed to be awesome when I joined here...8 years ago....he joined Epic in 2000, so he has been skiing at least twice as long as you....most likey much longer then that.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

 

You could say that about me too though, having gone through the CSIA approach. I'm on my seventh year of skiing, have taken a zillion lessons/clinics, put blood/sweat/tears (figuratively) into my skiing, and still haven't passed my level 3. Is it really better to ski everything at a mediocre level than to be able to just rip on groomers? I dunno, I'm just putting it out there. Also not trying to have a pity party--I'm just saying that progress seems pretty slow in all systems. 

For most progress is slow.  Unless you are consistently receiving good coaching (weekly basis) combined with extensive mileage it's very difficult to make quick changes/improvements to one's skiing.  Terrain, snow conditions and equipment also factor into this mix and are not to be underestimated.

 

Skiers such as myself and Heluva use video as a medium to converse with our coaches but it's not the same as skiing with them on a routine basis.  There's a big difference between skiing with a good coach who can tell you on the spot when you are doing something correctly/incorrectly vs. uploading video at the end of a day and sending it off for review.  With the latter, the entire process will take longer to see results.

post #406 of 495

Great attitude, keep it up and you'll improve!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

Also... Those who question my resolve to improve; shouldn't. I listen to every comment, and more importantly the criticisms, and learn from them, regardless of the source...
post #407 of 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbm13 View Post

There's a big difference between skiing with a good coach who can tell you on the spot when you are doing something correctly/incorrectly vs. uploading video at the end of a day and sending it off for review.  With the latter, the entire process will take longer to see results.

 

Very important observation here. Working with a talented coach supercharges the learning cycle. Add video during the day and its like pouring gasoline on the fire. There is a feedback loop that is solidly reinforced when the athletes can see themselves during training. The most rapid changes I have seen were during sessions where coaching feedback and video is delivered between each run. It is incredible how quickly racers make changes when they see exactly what they are doing while they are on the snow.

post #408 of 495

Which is why the $30 and a book will never be a valid solution.

post #409 of 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Which is why the $30 and a book will never be a valid solution.

 

A great $30 book plus posting video online for feedback is a million times better than no instruction or instruction from an ineffective instructor.

 

And a $30 book in the hands of a good coach is a treasure chest.

post #410 of 495

Indeed. It's always easy to argue all sides of an issue if that's your thing. smile.gif

post #411 of 495

The point is that in person instruction isn't the only valid approach even though some instructors and coaches may wish it was. Distance learning works with sports when student video is submitted to enhance the feedback loop. Learning is not as rapid but it is a heluva lot cheaper!

post #412 of 495

Indeed... there are infinite ways to skin a cat.

post #413 of 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by NECoach View Post

 

Rotary is natural. Skiing is not! 

 

So serious question here.

 

Lets say for the sake of "not argument" that I agree with you that rotary is natural.  And lets say you get this student/athelete that comes to you, but for whatever reason has in effective rotary control.  What do you do?  Seriously...do you just ignore it, and say "rotary is natural, ergo its your probelm?", or do you address the issue?

 

I can speak for the CSIA, and with a fair degree of confidence the PSIA as well, when I say, if there is an issue with rotary, we would address it.  I can also say that if we came across one of these "naturals" were the rotary was fine...we would ignore rotary, and work on what needed to be worked on.  th_dunno-1[1].gif  Where I come from, we don't worry about it if its natural or not....we just work with the athlete that is in front of us...and work on what needs to be worked on, to build on, what they do have...whatever that maybe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NECoach View Post
 

This statement is dubious. If an observer cannot ski like the subject then he must rely are external observations and information to analyse the subject's internal muscle movements that result in the outcome seen in the video. This course of action often results in inaccurate analysis. If the observer cannot make the turns then he cannot state with authority what it takes to do it. The best he can do is guess or parrot what someone else has said.

But I can state with authority what it takes to make those turns.  th_dunno-1[1].gif

 

You have obviouvsly never coached at the WC level.  I assure you, the athletes ski better then the coaches....this is even true at Europa and Nor Am in a lot of cases.  The coaches thou, are still effective, and the athletes still develop.  Having said that, I agree with you, that someone who gained their knowledge from "wrote learning" is not very effective.  We had a person here years ago, who when they first started posting here (making many of the same arugments you make), where cleary just stating lines from a $30 book.  It was obvious he had no clue, althought to his credit, over time he wrote learning moved to actual experience...when that happened he started to see the flaws in the $30 book too. 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by NECoach View Post
 

IMO the most difficult demonstration of technical skills needed for carving is to consistently bend a ski into a much tighter radius through precise movements.  The ability to demonstrate the same turn shape size and speed while going for maximum ski performance is the test. The outcome shows that the OP can make any size or shape carved turn because he has mastered the most difficult test or carving skill

 

Well its up to you what you consider to be the ultimate test.  But in the real world, the ultimate test of carving ability is a race course which has a variety of turn shapes and sizes as well as pitches, which of course leads to a variety of speeds.  The one who gets from the top of the course to the bottom the fastest si considered the winner.  Then on top of that, they add up the result from a seasons with of races, in different locations and courses from all over the world, and indeed different discplines (SL/GS/SG/DH)...and the one who did the best of that, is considedred the "Grand Champion" so to speak.  th_dunno-1[1].gif

 

Seriously....I cant beleive you even wrote that.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by NECoach View Post
 

This statement is one example that supports my hunch that you do not understand how the OP is training. The other program teaches edging F/A pressure control and the upper body stuff independently. They do not teach one primary move as you state above but multiple primary movementS with supplementary upper body movements to support those multiple primary movementS.

Yet they clearly do, train it as one move.......rolleyes.gif  Maybe you should get your $30 back?  rolleyes.gif

post #414 of 495
Quote:

Originally Posted by SkiDude72

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by NECoach View Post
 

This statement is one example that supports my hunch that you do not understand how the OP is training. The other program teaches edging F/A pressure control and the upper body stuff independently. They do not teach one primary move as you state above but multiple primary movementS with supplementary upper body movements to support those multiple primary movementS.

Yet they clearly do, train it as one move.......rolleyes.gif  Maybe you should get your $30 back?  rolleyes.gif

 

 

eek.gif  Yikes!  Apparently I've been taking lessons from imposters masquerading as HH's staff!  Thank God you have opened my eyes to this fraud.....

 

Of course the "other program"  teaches the movements separately with a focus on fine independent control of them.  Sometimes they use the word segmentation to describe this (since the more logical word, separation, is already laden with meaning in ski jargon.)  When you falsely make authoritative statements like this, Dude72, your ignorance shines through clearly for all to see.  You appear positively radiant.

 

I do feel sympathetic toward your plight ... after all what's a WC luminary and Canadian ski titan like you to do to alleviate boredom between seasons.  But EpicSki already has one Chaos and his trolling is more endearing than yours biggrin.gif

post #415 of 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post

 

I do feel sympathetic toward your plight ... after all what's a WC luminary and Canadian ski titan like you to do to alleviate boredom between seasons.  But EpicSki already has one Chaos and his trolling is more endearing than yours biggrin.gif

 

Well I agree with you there.

post #416 of 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 
Yet they clearly do, train it as one move.......rolleyes.gif   Maybe you should get your $30 back?  rolleyes.gif
assuming I know who you're talking about - no, they don't really - in fact there is an emphasis on training each separately and "owning" each before putting them together... In accordance with the latest practice principles: decompose, own then re-compose. It's fine actually. I didnt get any training, but own pretty much all the books and DVDs... at... I assure you, a lot more than 30$... add a zero maybe. Decent value there though...

Having been through CSCF up to level 2, there are some (perhaps could call them deficiencies) that I see now in their approach (but arguable - I also misunderstood a lot), but no major faults.

Cheers.
post #417 of 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

You have obviouvsly never coached at the WC level.  I assure you, the athletes ski better then the coaches....

 

I did not say WC coaches had to ski BETTER than the athletes. Not that it matters but I have skied with USST WC coaches D1 coaches WC and D1 athletes including Ted Ligety.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
But in the real world, the ultimate test of carving ability is a race course which has a variety of turn shapes and sizes as well as pitches, which of course leads to a variety of speeds.  The one who gets from the top of the course to the bottom the fastest si considered the winner.  Then on top of that, they add up the result from a seasons with of races, in different locations and courses from all over the world, and indeed different discplines (SL/GS/SG/DH)...and the one who did the best of that, is considedred the "Grand Champion" so to speak.  th_dunno-1%5B1%5D.gif

 

Seriously....I cant beleive you even wrote that.

 

Speed is only one facet of technical carving ability. Watch some of the Japanese technical competitions.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

Yet they clearly do, train it as one move.......rolleyes.gif 

 

Good grief. Stop making stuff up.


Edited by NECoach - 4/22/13 at 6:33pm
post #418 of 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post


assuming I know who you're talking about - no, they don't really - in fact there is an emphasis on training each separately and "owning" each before putting them together... In accordance with the latest practice principles: decompose, own then re-compose. It's fine actually. I didnt get any training, but own pretty much all the books and DVDs... at... I assure you, a lot more than 30$... add a zero maybe. Decent value there though...

Having been through CSCF up to level 2, there are some (perhaps could call them deficiencies) that I see now in their approach (but arguable - I also misunderstood a lot), but no major faults.

Cheers.


Thats good if its true.  But what I hear alot from those who follow the $30(0) book/DVD is they work on the "movment" or even "movements"...but that is not a skill.

 

Skills includes the movement...but also adds rate of movement, timing of movement, amount of movement.  All variables...that can be altered to suit.  AND done independtly of the other skills.  When you get there...you're a true all round expert.  And with the right coaching its not as hard as it may sound...as believe it or not, when these things are taught the right way, putting them together is fairly natural.

post #419 of 495

Heluva I found some visuals that demonstrate the CSIA and PSIA advice. Compare to your video.

 

CSIA Level 4

 

 

PSIA Level 3

 

 

 

post #420 of 495

   Those are some great videos, NECicon14.gif. Looks like those skiers are getting primed for fun on the mountain...thanks for postingsmile.gif

Now who's fishing??

 

   zenny

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