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post #61 of 82

It sure is. And he said "a ski is round and should be tuned round."  As in 3 base bevel and 3 side bevel!

post #62 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

 

Even sadder for the people he shot and for the friends and family of the one who died.

 

He was a friend of a friend of mine, actually taught me to tune skis and was a wonderful guide on the hill.  You'd never want to be around him when he was drinking.  We'd both cut our ties with him a couple of years before he snapped.

It is already a shock when you read about it in the newspapers ( except when your republican I gess...and/or a nra member...devil.gif)

I can't imagine how it is when you know the guy...

post #63 of 82

We did read about it in the paper (well online actually) with great interest.  Very weird seeing photos of him in court, etc.  I have to say I felt safer knowing he was locked up.  I was always afraid he'd see me on the hill and come after me for not being his friend anymore.

 

I'm sure a lot of people in Vail felt safer actually.  I was only there for a week each year, they all knew who he was.

post #64 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bttocs View Post

I would like to chime in on this thread. I have spent the last two seasons sorting out some poorly tuned skis and trying to get my arms around ski performance as it relates to tuning. Here is what I have come to understand:  (I am a East Coast Race Coach for a small hill)

 

1. In soft snow, the ski's side cut radius and the flex and stifness dictate performance for the most part. Edges don't do much for you. Any bevels will do, as long as the bottom isn't extreme, say greater than 2 deg.

 

2. There are many different snow surfaces, the harder it gets, the more edges come into play and dictate performance. Base bevel is very important and really effects the skis performance on hard snow.  A inconsistant base bevel is the worst thing you can have and it will screw up a skis performance. (Zentune's bevel is proggressive, not inconsistant) on hard snow, especially if it is zero in spots.

 

3. I completely agree with the info that Atomicman and Zentune have said, they know what they are talking about.

 

4. The best base bevel for hard snow selected by trying .5-1.0 personally, is the best for you to use all over the mountain. In soft snow it doesn't matter so much, when you hit hard spots, you will have the right bevel to give you grip. Skiing on a slope covered with manmade snow with lots of scraped sections is the best testing ground for tunes. Going from the soft manmade onto the hard surface and back again really shows you how your edges and ski function together.

 

5.  Side bevel angle gives you more grip or bite into a hard surface. It doesn't change the responsiveness of the ski very much. It will help you keep your grip at higher speeds. Bottom bevel controls how quickly your edges engage, and how uniformly they engage along the length of the ski. This translates into how well you can control the slip or drift of the ski. A zero bottom bevel can feel like your edges are a light switch, either on or off, no inbetween. A 1.0 degree bevel is more like a dimmer switch, lots of degrees of slip.

 

6.  The bevels will be a personal preference based on the particular ski, and the conditions you ski most of the time. A 1.0/2.0 works well on a wide ski, say 90-110 mm underfoot in my opinion. These are not designed to be ice carvers, and I want to be able to relax on these skis. A race ski is for groomers only, so why not go with .5/3.0, unless it is a little to responsive.

 

7.  So what you want is an even base bevel from tip to tail, or a progressive like Zentune. Then an even or progressive side bevel, sharp from tip to tail as well. Then ski the ski and if its a little hookey, dull the tip and tail back an inch or two with a gummy stone until the ski feels good. Do not confuse responsiveness with hookyness. If too responsive, increase base bevel at .25 degree until comfortable.

 

8.  My quiver is race skis which have a .5/3.0 tune and a wide ski, which has a 1.0/2.0 tune.

 

9.  One other piece of info. I took all my skis to a shop that rents and tunes skis, and they screwed every ski up. They didin't bevel to the tip and tail, they didn't sharpen to the tip and tail, and the bevel was inconsistant. I am not pleased and they will never touch my skis again. I need to find a shop with a good ski tuning machine and have them stone grind all my skis flat again and then make sure they get the proper bevels. I will watch the machine being used in the shop before I trust a shop to do it right. I watched the original shop use their very old winterstieger machine (after the fact) and I could see this vintage machine could not do a good base bevel. It used a belt on a soft roller and down pressure to create bottom bevels.There was no angle adjustment. I could tell it would never work properly.

OK! I take a break from work...

Here is what I intend to do so far...

1. Change my Radical 9sl from 0.5/2 to 0.5/3  It is nice at 2 for most of the time except in the freezing morning in spring, so...

2. Change my Salomon Mustang ( cross ski) from 1/2 to 0.75/2 The edge grip is si wicked, I don't need more...and I won't change 2 things at the same time...anyway, my side bevel will gain 0.25

3. Keep my Hell & Back at 1/2   it is for when it snowed anyway and I already love it that way...

 

For my carvers ( like rx12 or FA84edt):

4.ski all of them and decide wich one I want to experiment with...

 

For the rest of the bunch, all mountain skis in the 72 to 90 area...

4. Choose 1 all mountain ski hardsnow bias (carver all mountain like the outland87) and 1 all mountain off-piste bias ski (like the 88xti) ( after having skiing them and deciding wich ones to experiment with...)

 

5. Start at 0.5 for all of them and see what hapens...then...with the skis that I don't like this way...

6. go progressive: 0.7 / 0.5 / 0.7   see what happens...then...

7. go at 0.7   see what happens...

8. go progressive: 1.0 / 0.75 / 1.0   and so forth until I reach 1.0

 

For the side bevel, I'll keep it at 2 during all the experimentation... After, maybe go with 3 for carvers...

 

So, a little gambling??? What will be the bevels I will finish with for the carvers, the all mountain carver and the all mountain off-piste bias???yahoo.gif

post #65 of 82

Sorry to hear that Mango..

 

Mogsie, sounds like a good plan.

 

I tried the radial tune recently, aka progressive base bevel. (Though maybe it should be regressive)  .75, .5, .75. It was done on one of those $300k+ machines, but you could do it by hand.

 

On firm snow, It feels like the center of the ski, the part underfoot, is glued to the snow or as if it had downforce like on a racecar. It's a bit odd. I'm not sure I liked it, and then the snow softened up so it didn't really matter.

 

I'm sure someone is going to come on here and say "what's all this crap about base bevels!" but if you ski firm snow it does matter. The feel of the ski is very different. Even if you do rails it matters, because you definitely don't want a 0.5deg base bevel. (I don't know what you want tbh, but it's probably 1 +) One of the reasons that you don't see the park people free skiing with their feet way out from under them on firm snow is that they have no edges they can rely on.

If you're doing a lot of half pipe also, I don't think you'd want a small base bevel. You want to be able to control the ski when you come down, not have it instantly lock into a carve.

 

It's kind of amazing it matters because we're talking about very small amounts of metal that is the difference between 1 degree and 0.5 degrees, and yet the ski reacts very differently.
 

What you think you're skiing on and what the actual base bevel is are most likely two different things. If you think you're on a 0.75, it's probably more like 1 to 1.5 degrees. Hopefully Atomicman will comment because he measures them all the time. I was surprised recently when the same thing happened to me when I had it measured using a bevel gauge.

 

A real 0.5 degree base bevel is a very grabby ski. It takes a little while to get used to it. By that I mean when you get to the point when you can slide and smear the ski comfortably. If your boots are two sizes too big, it is definitely a bad idea to have a 0.5 base bevel. Again, this is with hard snow. If you're dropping cliffs in powder, yeah it doesn't matter all that much.  If you're going to Chamonix or wherever and will ski with real exposure and consequences for falling, it does matter as you'll encounter ice or hard snow.

 

It's really up to preference, and how you like the ski to feel, but a true 1 degree base bevel is probably the way to go for all mountain. It would be interesting to know what Chris Davenport or some of those other ski mountaineering guys use.

 

Almost no, (there's always someone right?), high level recreational skier would want to ski a world cup, tuned for injected snow, slalom ski on firm snow. It would be an absolute nightmare. They're using very little base bevel, 0.5 and less, and massive side edge angle, 4 to even 7 degrees. They want the ski to hook up instantly on snow that is extremely hard. They are extremely strong, quick, have boots that are super tight, and a lot of experience.They get on and off the edge very quickly. A ski that sharp offers little room for recovery when something goes awry and it always does.

 

Base bevels also increase with time skiing. Maybe Atomicman has measured it over time. That would be interesting to see.

There are few shops that can properly tune a ski if you're talking to this level of precision. Unless you're dealing with a well known precision race tuning shop, never have your skis ground during Christmas or President's week when it's real busy.

 

One reason to ask for 0.75 is to gauge the reaction. Though it's far more common than a few years ago, if the shop thinks you're nuts, then definitely move on.

post #66 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Sorry to hear that Mango..

 

Mogsie, sounds like a good plan.

 

I tried the radial tune recently, aka progressive base bevel. (Though maybe it should be regressive)  .75, .5, .75. It was done on one of those $300k+ machines, but you could do it by hand.

 

On firm snow, It feels like the center of the ski, the part underfoot, is glued to the snow or as if it had downforce like on a racecar. It's a bit odd. I'm not sure I liked it, and then the snow softened up so it didn't really matter. Maybe 1.0 , 0.75 , 1.0 would have feel better for you?

 

I'm sure someone is going to come on here and say "what's all this crap about base bevels!" but if you ski firm snow it does matter. The feel of the ski is very different. Even if you do rails it matters, because you definitely don't want a 0.5deg base bevel. (I don't know what you want tbh, but it's probably 1 +) One of the reasons that you don't see the park people free skiing with their feet way out from under them on firm snow is that they have no edges they can rely on.

If you're doing a lot of half pipe also, I don't think you'd want a small base bevel. You want to be able to control the ski when you come down, not have it instantly lock into a carve.

 

It's kind of amazing it matters because we're talking about very small amounts of metal that is the difference between 1 degree and 0.5 degrees, and yet the ski reacts very differently.

Yeah I know, it amaze me too...
 

What you think you're skiing on and what the actual base bevel is are most likely two different things. If you think you're on a 0.75, it's probably more like 1 to 1.5 degrees. Hopefully Atomicman will comment because he measures them all the time. I was surprised recently when the same thing happened to me when I had it measured using a bevel gauge.

 

A real 0.5 degree base bevel is a very grabby ski. It takes a little while to get used to it. By that I mean when you get to the point when you can slide and smear the ski comfortably. If your boots are two sizes too big, it is definitely a bad idea to have a 0.5 base bevel.You get me thinking about when I tried the legend 85 at 0.5 ( from 1.0) ; I didn't like it at all but I was in Atomic Hawk 90 that were way too big for me. I'm now with Lange xt130...a world of difference! Again, this is with hard snow. If you're dropping cliffs in powder, yeah it doesn't matter all that much.  If you're going to Chamonix or wherever and will ski with real exposure and consequences for falling, it does matter as you'll encounter ice or hard snow.

 

It's really up to preference, and how you like the ski to feel, but a true 1 degree base bevel is probably the way to go for all mountain. It would be interesting to know what Chris Davenport or some of those other ski mountaineering guys use.Called him but he didn't return my call yet...

 

Almost no, (there's always someone right?), high level recreational skier would want to ski a world cup, tuned for injected snow, slalom ski on firm snow. It would be an absolute nightmare. They're using very little base bevel, 0.5 and less, and massive side edge angle, 4 to even 7 degrees. They want the ski to hook up instantly on snow that is extremely hard. They are extremely strong, quick, have boots that are super tight, and a lot of experience.They get on and off the edge very quickly. A ski that sharp offers little room for recovery when something goes awry and it always does.

 

Base bevels also increase with time skiing. Maybe Atomicman has measured it over time. That would be interesting to see.

There are few shops that can properly tune a ski if you're talking to this level of precision. Unless you're dealing with a well known precision race tuning shop, never have your skis ground during Christmas or President's week when it's real busy.

 

One reason to ask for 0.75 is to gauge the reaction. Though it's far more common than a few years ago, if the shop thinks you're nuts, then definitely move on.

Absolutly no problems there! I've found a really nice ski shop near my place where all the guys know what they are doing ( or talking about) and they also are nice skiers too!!! They tune the skis of almost all the racers around here and they're always ready for a nice discussion about skis and maintenance!!! They even give me some advices and help me with my technique of skiing and my  learning about maintenance...They know I do it at home and they encourage me...And they have nice prices for when I want to change bevels or grind the base... I've learn a lot being in contact with them...

post #67 of 82
Thread Starter 

Thinking about it... would you think that a progressive bevel would have the same effect on a classic single radius vs a dual radius or a progressive radius???432.gif

post #68 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogsie View Post

Thinking about it... would you think that a progressive bevel would have the same effect on a classic single radius vs a dual radius or a progressive radius???432.gif

Sweet emoticon...wish I had that! All I got is  nonono2.gif and spit.gif! I cant imagine there being any issue regarding your question, but remember, the effects felt from the degree of base bevel is usually relegated to the "Realm of the Groom"...and firm.

 

   zenny

post #69 of 82

Progressive tuning: the micro rocker for your edges biggrin.gif, even less rocker than marketing rocker, but still has a noticeable effect (on icy and hard-packed snow).

post #70 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Progressive tuning: the micro rocker for your edges biggrin.gif, even less rocker than marketing rocker, but still has a noticeable effect (on icy and hard-packed snow).

   Exactly.

 

   zenster

post #71 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

 

What you think you're skiing on and what the actual base bevel is are most likely two different things. If you think you're on a 0.75, it's probably more like 1 to 1.5 degrees. Hopefully Atomicman will comment because he measures them all the time. I was surprised recently when the same thing happened to me when I had it measured using a bevel gauge.

 

A real 0.5 degree base bevel is a very grabby ski.

 

This is very true!

 

This season I was skiing some slalom gates with some friends and one of the guys who's very competitive said his slalom skis were set to 0.5 base bevel. A week later he had his slalom skis tuned professionally to re-set his bevels for an upcoming race, and when he got back on them he immediately admitted they were a handful to ski on at a fresh 0.5 and they were probably much more like 1.0 or greater before they had been redone.

 

It seems that a bottom edge bevel doesn't stay set at 0.5 for very long, and especially after you touch your edges up a couple of times. For this reason I only generally touch up the side edge bevels, and just leave the bottom edge bevel alone...

post #72 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Progressive tuning: the micro rocker for your edges biggrin.gif, even less rocker than marketing rocker, but still has a noticeable effect (on icy and hard-packed snow).

What do you think of " bevel rocker" ???

post #73 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISfromRI View Post

 

This is very true!

 

This season I was skiing some slalom gates with some friends and one of the guys who's very competitive said his slalom skis were set to 0.5 base bevel. A week later he had his slalom skis tuned professionally to re-set his bevels for an upcoming race, and when he got back on them he immediately admitted they were a handful to ski on at a fresh 0.5 and they were probably much more like 1.0 or greater before they had been redone.

 

It seems that a bottom edge bevel doesn't stay set at 0.5 for very long, and especially after you touch your edges up a couple of times. For this reason I only generally touch up the side edge bevels, and just leave the bottom edge bevel alone...

So this could mean that when I first skied my 9sl at 0.5 and was thinking: "WOO! I think it will take a little time to get used to them!" they really were at 0.5 and now, at the end of the season, even if I didn't skied them every time and all day long, they could now be (let's say) a 0.75??? How much time does it take for a 210 pounds who ski agressively to do that?

 

So, maybe my first step next year should be to take my sl skis to the shop to redo my base bevel at 0.5...

post #74 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

   Exactly.

 

   zenster

 


Edited by mogsie - 4/11/13 at 6:47am
post #75 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogsie View Post

 

 

 

Is it a plane? NO! Is it a train? no!

 

 

Hey Zentune! I think I've found one of your source of inspiration!!! and your real identity...

http://www.pezwinter.blogspot.ca/2012/01/understanding-applying-variable-base.html

 

   Dave IS one of my sources....but that guy ain't me!! Iksnay on identitya-abiggrin.gif

 

    z

post #76 of 82
Thread Starter 

...


Edited by mogsie - 4/11/13 at 6:46am
post #77 of 82

mogsie if he wants to be anonymous you should respect that and edit your previous post.

post #78 of 82
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

mogsie if he wants to be anonymous you should respect that and edit your previous post.

You're right!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

   Dave IS one of my sources....but that guy ain't me!! Iksnay on identitya-abiggrin.gif

 

    z

Sorry! I don't know if it would upset you so I did what Ski mango suggested... You have to delete your last one too!

post #79 of 82

   No biggie...many here know my true identity anyway. The feds quit looking for me long ago AND I'm impervious to Kryptonitewink.gif. I only have one weakness, as far as I know...

I've made several references to Dave's website since joining Epic...it's a FANTASTIC wealth of knowledge written by a former WC tech. I also enjoy the writings of Thor Verdonk, Willy Wiltz, and others.

 

    zenster

post #80 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

   No biggie...many here know my true identity anyway. The feds quit looking for me long ago AND I'm impervious to Kryptonitewink.gif. I only have one weakness, as far as I know...

I've made several references to Dave's website since joining Epic...it's a FANTASTIC wealth of knowledge written by a former WC tech. I also enjoy the writings of Thor Verdonk, Willy Wiltz, and others.

 

    zenster

 

 

I'm sure there's a picture of me in a federal database somewhere from the 60's!

post #81 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

 

 

I'm sure there's a picture of me in a federal database somewhere from the 60's!

Shhhhhhh!!! They're listening......eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif cool.gif

 

    zentastic

post #82 of 82
Thread Starter 

That's what I tought but must admit that skimango pushed my panic button...and I felt like that:

 

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