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ways to communicate, demonstrate, "knee adulation “ - Page 2

post #31 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

But I dont understand why you could not "knee-edge" if you dont tip your feet! Maybe I dont know what knee edging is. Im imagining its "pointing" your knee in some direction. Also, what is the difference between foot and ancle movements? Are not all movements of the foot done at the ancle joint?

Knee angulation, or knee edging, is basically rotating the femur so that the lower leg and knee points to the inside. Unless you do something with your foot this will also rotate the foot in the same direction so you have to point the foot in the counter direction, in relation to the lower leg. In relation to the snow the foot is still pointing the same way. Now since you cannot separate tipping and rotation due to how the subtalar joint is constructed (see the picture I submitted above), that means you HAVE to tip you foot. If you cannot tip your foot, you cannot knee angulation, except the small amount due to knee drive.

 

The ankle joint is the one responsible for dorsi and plantar. However, when you tip the foot the ancle itself moves side to side, maybe that was the confusion.

 

The foot has many joints, of which the ankle and subtalar are the most important for skiing. I suppose in layman terms the "ancle" can be used to represent several joint.

post #32 of 41
Thread Starter 
I was thinking a combination of femur rotation, dorsiflection of the ankle, and knee flex, proceeded by the little but of tipping inside the boot which I hear you saying is from the sub tallar joint. Us this accurate? The desirable movement pattern? I'm talking about the very beginning of the turn before beginning to extend.
post #33 of 41
Thread Starter 
I was thinking a combination of femur rotation, dorsiflection of the ankle, and knee flex, proceeded by the little but of tipping inside the boot which I hear you saying is from the sub tallar joint. Us this accurate? The desirable movement pattern? I'm talking about the very beginning of the turn before beginning to extend.
post #34 of 41

I don't see any real need to link tipping and flexing. You need to be in a somewhat flexed state to tip, but whether you are flexing, extending or maintaining, depends on a lot of other factors as well. If you came from a deep retraction you will be extending, but if you came from a tall centered stance you will likely be flexing a bit. It all depends on what kind of turn you are making.

post #35 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxammo View Post

I was thinking a combination of femur rotation, dorsiflection of the ankle, and knee flex, proceeded by the little but of tipping inside the boot which I hear you saying is from the sub tallar joint. Us this accurate? The desirable movement pattern? I'm talking about the very beginning of the turn before beginning to extend.

 

I do not understand what you are trying to accomplish. What are you trying to communicate? What is your objective in teaching this?

post #36 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxammo View Post

I was thinking a combination of femur rotation, dorsiflection of the ankle, and knee flex, proceeded by the little but of tipping inside the boot which I hear you saying is from the sub tallar joint. Us this accurate? The desirable movement pattern? I'm talking about the very beginning of the turn before beginning to extend.

 

 

One body part, one movement, one desired outcome... simplify the HELL out of what you're trying to say. Good skiing is good skiing. You're just trying to shine a light on one possible take on getting there. As soon as you start talking about multi-variable ski calculus, you've lost most of your audience and yourself as well. How about this... can you think up a simple progression that you could physically demonstrate? I know you say you're having trouble articulating things, but you have to try... break it down into VERY simple steps. 

 

Just curious, but do you have any teaching certification? 

post #37 of 41
Thread Starter 
Marko, yes, and I feel very confident on many subjects, this is something I'm trying to work through and I know it sounds unpolished our uninformed but I'm more concerned with gaining understanding than how I'm perceived and readily admit I may be off the mark here but, I feel something happening with my skiing and I want to understand it. I think perhaps I am making it too complicated.perhaps what I feel is accurate use of two our more basic skills working together not something separate. I think you got miffed with me when I said you didn't make sense to me but,I tried to express that was likely due to my poor description. I do understand what you were saying now but, I think Jamt is closer to the subject I was trying to discuss.
post #38 of 41

pdxammo - In order to keep talking on the snow as simple as possible I would rather talk about the "ancle" as one joint. And I would demonstrate how cranking my knees from side to side tips my skis from one pair of edges to the other. And as we do this together with our students in our skiing outfits with boots and skis on I would ask how it feels at the ancle. I did this the other day and a young woman could rotate her femures quite a lot without any problems. Me on the other hand just a bit. An older man could not do it at all. Completely stiff ancle. Then I would have my students evert and invert their feet inside their boots from side to side and see how much their knees move. These both demos should be enough for the students to get into the movements needed for "knee angulation".

post #39 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxammo View Post

Marko, yes, and I feel very confident on many subjects, this is something I'm trying to work through and I know it sounds unpolished our uninformed but I'm more concerned with gaining understanding than how I'm perceived and readily admit I may be off the mark here but, I feel something happening with my skiing and I want to understand it. I think perhaps I am making it too complicated.perhaps what I feel is accurate use of two our more basic skills working together not something separate. I think you got miffed with me when I said you didn't make sense to me but,I tried to express that was likely due to my poor description. I do understand what you were saying now but, I think Jamt is closer to the subject I was trying to discuss.

 

pdx, make no mistake, I'm not miffed about anything at all! smile.gif  The reason I asked about certification is you could use some of the PSIA terminology to parse the skills you were talking about:

balance, rotary, edging, pressure. What body part/movement did you address and how did it change any of the four skills mentioned? Any change of duration, intensity, rate, or timing? It's a useful framework. 

post #40 of 41
Thread Starter 
Maybe using pivot slips to short turns then rhythm changes (nw tasks) would transfer the rotation of the femur so evident in pivot slips to the less obvious medium radius turns.
What I see is a skier moving inside with the hip at the very start of the turn, the legs do not change length very much especially through the top third of the turn. The ski is not bent in the to third of the turn as a result, its performance is diminished.
I would like to see turning movements start in the feet, the shins contact the cuff forward and laterally to engage edges then the body may stay more over the feet and balance to the outside and ski performance will increase.
I would use pivot slips to shorts to mediums to extend the movement, rotation of the femur in the hip socket, throughout all radius of turns, then edging movements can start in the feet and be supported by the knees hips and spine. The result will be a decambeted ski slicing and steering through the snow.
I feel that is still too dense but, I'm trying to be more concise. This its a challenge for me.
post #41 of 41

Excellent! Now you're getting there! smile.gif

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