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Need opinions on ski vehicle choices, thank you :) - Page 3

post #61 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickg View Post

You should really take a look at a Subie Outback from around 2007 or so.  Should be able to find one in your price range with moderate miles.  It fits most of your requirements and is available in both 6 and 4 cyl versions both of which get 20+ on the highway and tend to be pretty reliable.  The interior size of an Outback is comparable to most mid size SUV's and is actually larger than some.

 

I am on my 4th Outback (5th Subie) and they have proven to be quite reliable for me.

 

Good Luck

 

Rick G


Rick any issues ever with your subarus?  My sister has a 2010 forrester, loves it, looking into possibly getting a subaru, they are just a weird company u really dont even hear anything good about them but then again i never hear anything bad about them.

post #62 of 232
@PDX

Dude. Silica is used to reduce rolling resistance and to keep the tire pliable at lower temps. You really have no idea what you are talking about.
post #63 of 232

and silicas  lower rolling resistance came at the expense of lower durability, decreased traction in wet weather
 

post #64 of 232

but some people think adding it to rubber increases its hardness and make it less susceptible to deformation thereby increasing the rolling resistance.

post #65 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by NayBreak View Post

@PDX

Dude. Silica is used to reduce rolling resistance and to keep the tire pliable at lower temps. You really have no idea what you are talking about.


Silica and the soft rubber in the snows increase rolling resistance. 

post #66 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post


Silica and the soft rubber in the snows increase rolling resistance. 

No wrong. They increase the coefficient of friction which is not at all the same as increasing rolling resistance. IN fact I'm not even sure there is such a thing as rolling resistance. Kina like how centrifugal force is a made up thing

post #67 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

Need for AWD is way over rated.  I FWD with traction control and killer snows will beat a FWD with all seasons.

Depends on what kind and condition of all seasons.  What it really boils down to is that it depends even more on the driver.  I've passed flailing 2WDs rockin' chains in my AWD Forester when I have brand spankin' new winter rated all seasons.

post #68 of 232

Question for Subaru folks: do any of the vehicles mentioned have a 3rd row seat (and room for gear)?  I don't know if I've ever seen one and it would be a must-have for me if I were routinely hauling a family of five.   For four people Subaru would be at the top of my list too.

post #69 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevez33 View Post


Rick any issues ever with your subarus?  My sister has a 2010 forrester, loves it, looking into possibly getting a subaru, they are just a weird company u really dont even hear anything good about them but then again i never hear anything bad about them.

 

 

Out of the 5 Subies that I have owned, here is my list of serious problems that I can remember.

 

1990 Legacy LSi AWD wagon, a/c compressor went our while still under warranty.  Took that one to about 95,000 miles.

 

1997 Outback 2.5 5sp.  There was a defect in the transmission which would cause the car to jump out of gear at crawling speeds.  Surfaced during the first month of ownership.  Transimission was rebuilt under warranty and had no further issues.  Took that on to about 80,000 miles.

 

2000 Outback 2.5i limited.  No problems that I can recall other than routine maintenance.  Took that one to about 75,000 miles

 

2007 Outback 2.5i 5sp.  No problems that I recall.  Took it to about 50,000 miles.

 

2011 Outback 2.5i Limited.  No probelms at all.  Currently at 29,000 miles.  My favorite Outback to date.

 

As you can see, very few problems with my Subies.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Rick G

post #70 of 232

The only Subie with a 3rd row seat is the lameduck Tribeca.  It never really caught on.  Very little storeage if 3rd row is used.  Even with the 3rd row stowed, not much more room than an Outback,  MPG is not really good as well plus it has some quirky interior and exterior stying.  Tried to get my wife to look at one when it was time to trade her Honda Pilot but she couldn't get past the homely looks.

 

The current version of the Outback has decent room for 5 with good if not exceptional storeage space.  The current version is the widest to date and also has the most rear seat room but at the expense of losing a few cubic feet of storeage in the rear.

 

Rick G

post #71 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

Depends on what kind and condition of all seasons.  What it really boils down to is that it depends even more on the driver.  I've passed flailing 2WDs rockin' chains in my AWD Forester when I have brand spankin' new winter rated all seasons.


Driving in snow country is just like skiing.  It's all about skills, but drivers with skills understand that they need the right tires, just as the best skiers understand that they need to tune their skis.  I will never beat Ligety in a race course, even if he uses old rental skis, but he still sharpens his skis for every race.  

People who say they don't need winter tires are as ridiculous as skiers who think say don't need good edges.

 

BK 

post #72 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post


Driving in snow country is just like skiing.  It's all about skills, but drivers with skills understand that they need the right tires, just as the best skiers understand that they need to tune their skis.  I will never beat Ligety in a race course, even if he uses old rental skis, but he still sharpens his skis for every race.  

People who say they don't need winter tires are as ridiculous as skiers who think say don't need good edges.

 

BK 

Ehh through chains on it and any tire becomes a good snow tire.

post #73 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf210 View Post

Ehh through chains on it and any tire becomes a good snow tire.


Not at all.  Chains will help you climb hills, but they won't help you stop or control the car at highway speeds.  Anyone who ignores tires when they are buying a "ski vehicle" is fooling themselves.  

 

BK 

post #74 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post


Not at all.  Chains will help you climb hills, but they won't help you stop or control the car at highway speeds.  Anyone who ignores tires when they are buying a "ski vehicle" is fooling themselves.  

 

BK 


Not at all.  Anyone driving at highway speeds on anything in conditions where chains or snows are required should lose their license FOREVER!  And FWIW, chains are pretty damn good at stopping any vehicle if you know how to downshift and use the emergency brake.

post #75 of 232
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OzK-oRPCbs

Ment to say you want a good awd vehicle like a Subaru or vw/Audi or something with 4wd (locking center diff). Alot of comapanies make awd vehicles with terrible logic (Honda is a great example) .
post #76 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post


Not at all.  Anyone driving at highway speeds on anything in conditions where chains or snows are required should lose their license FOREVER!  And FWIW, chains are pretty damn good at stopping any vehicle if you know how to downshift and use the emergency brake.

What I find is that once I pass the cluster of slow cars without proper winter tires, I can safely and easily drive nearly double the speed of most traffic until I come up to the next cluster of slow cars.  I've NEVER lost control of a car with good snow tires, and I never stay home because of weather.  In 45 years of driving in Upstate NY and New England I can only recall one time when chains would have saved me from a long detour.  Chains are not a substitute for winter tires.  Do you stay off the highway when snow tires are required, or are you just one of the slow guys I have to pass all day long? 

The annoying and ironic thing is that you seem to think I am irresponsible when in fact the most responsible thing to do is use the best tires for conditions, as I do. 

 

BK

post #77 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post

What I find is that once I pass the cluster of slow cars without proper winter tires, I can safely and easily drive nearly double the speed of most traffic until I come up to the next cluster of slow cars.  I've NEVER lost control of a car with good snow tires, and I never stay home because of weather.  In 45 years of driving in Upstate NY and New England I can only recall one time when chains would have saved me from a long detour.  Chains are not a substitute for winter tires.  Do you stay off the highway when snow tires are required, or are you just one of the slow guys I have to pass all day long? 

The annoying and ironic thing is that you seem to think I am irresponsible when in fact the most responsible thing to do is use the best tires for conditions, as I do. 

 

BK


jk.gif

 

I've also never been stuck in a snowbank along the side of the road after over 30 years of sketchy places.  I have, however seen a lot of wrecks caused by idiots screaming by the line of cars stuck behind the one or two ill prepared, ill equipped individuals.

 

FWIW, most of the signs I see say "CHAINS or 4WD" required..  not "Chains, 4WD, or Snow Tires required".  I prefer an AWD vehicle with good tread AND chains for that glazed ice emergency.  I've never had to throw iron on any of my AWD or 4WD vehicles to get where I needed to.  But, when I did with 2WD vehicles it was only for a few miles.  The main reason chains are not a substitute is they are strictly for emergencies only.   They'll ruin your vehicle if you leave them on beyond the point where you need them, or if you try to go too fast with them.  All I can say, is if you're going DOUBLE the speed of most other vehicles in bad weather it is only a matter of time before you end up in one of the many wrecks you probably have left in your 45 year wake.

post #78 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post

What I find is that once I pass the cluster of slow cars without proper winter tires, I can safely and easily drive nearly double the speed of most traffic until I come up to the next cluster of slow cars.  I've NEVER lost control of a car with good snow tires, and I never stay home because of weather.  In 45 years of driving in Upstate NY and New England I can only recall one time when chains would have saved me from a long detour.  Chains are not a substitute for winter tires.  Do you stay off the highway when snow tires are required, or are you just one of the slow guys I have to pass all day long? 

The annoying and ironic thing is that you seem to think I am irresponsible when in fact the most responsible thing to do is use the best tires for conditions, as I do. 

 

BK

I drive faster then most cars on the highway as well and I have/ had agreessive off road tires and never lost control. However ,I can say I have almost spun out (not my jeep I burrowed a car) pulling on to a cross street in town. I managed to pull it back in but in my experience every time I have come close to losing control it's been at slow speeds in residential areas the highway has never been a problem for me. 

post #79 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuik View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OzK-oRPCbs

Ment to say you want a good awd vehicle like a Subaru or vw/Audi or something with 4wd (locking center diff). Alot of comapanies make awd vehicles with terrible logic (Honda is a great example) .

 

That doesn't apply to Honda Pilot or Acura MDX.   The CR-V in the video has a lesser AWD system than the Pilot and MDX.   My MDX has a switch which will send 50% of the power to the rear wheels.  In lock mode it would climb that ramp in the video no problem.  I believe the Pilot has this switch too.  

 

That said, tires are what matters in the real world.   The effectiveness of the drive system, AWD, 4WD or even FWD, matters far less than having snow tires.  I'd take any car with good snow tires over a Subaru with all-seasons.

post #80 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by tball View Post

That doesn't apply to Honda Pilot or Acura MDX.   The CR-V in the video has a lesser AWD system than the Pilot and MDX.   My MDX has a switch which will send 50% of the power to the rear wheels.  In lock mode it would climb that ramp in the video no problem.  I believe the Pilot has this switch too.  

That said, tires are what matters in the real world.   The effectiveness of the drive system, AWD, 4WD or even FWD, matters far less than having snow tires.  I'd take any car with good snow tires over a Subaru with all-seasons.

Do you know how a switch locks power 50/50 to the front and rear axles in a vehicle that does not have a center differential?
post #81 of 232

Having true snow tires is a "no brainer" for anyone living within 50 miles of the resort or wherever winter conditions prevail.  It isn't such a great choice when your vehicle spends most of the time 200 miles from the resort and spends over 95% of "winter" months actually driving on warm. dry pavement.  And, having spare rims and tires isn't optimal when you only head to the mountains once a month or so.  Are you going to change your rims 10 times a season, or will you go with really good all seasons and a pair of chains "just in case"?

post #82 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by tball View Post

 

 

That said, tires are what matters in the real world.   The effectiveness of the drive system, AWD, 4WD or even FWD, matters far less than having snow tires.  I'd take any car with good snow tires over a Subaru with all-seasons.

I think it's more about knowing how to drive in the conditions. Until my current Subaru Legacy GT, all my cars had good all season tires. I like the Michelin MXV4. My 92 Civic had them and we never missed a ski race the winters I had that car. Got my 1st Legacy GT in March 98, then a 00'GT,  I put the MXV4 on both those cars. Drove thur VT in some pretty bad conditions, white out's ice storms. Never had a issue.

 

My current 05GT wagon with 280whp I put snows on because I want even more traction.


Edited by Max Capacity - 4/2/13 at 10:13am
post #83 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

Having true snow tires is a "no brainer" for anyone living within 50 miles of the resort or wherever winter conditions prevail.  It isn't such a great choice when your vehicle spends most of the time 200 miles from the resort and spends over 95% of "winter" months actually driving on warm. dry pavement.  And, having spare rims and tires isn't optimal when you only head to the mountains once a month or so.  Are you going to change your rims 10 times a season, or will you go with really good all seasons and a pair of chains "just in case"?


That explains a lot.  The road to a ski area is usually the easiest drive in snow country,  The access road and parking lots are always plowed before the lifts open. Their business model depends on zero skill BMW drivers.  If that describes you, you really don't need to give advice to those of us who live here.

 

BK

post #84 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post


That explains a lot.  The road to a ski area is usually the easiest drive in snow country,  The access road and parking lots are always plowed before the lifts open. Their business model depends on zero skill BMW drivers.  If that describes you, you really don't need to give advice to those of us who live here.

 

BK

 

Clearly you have never been to Oregon.

post #85 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

Having true snow tires is a "no brainer" for anyone living within 50 miles of the resort or wherever winter conditions prevail.  It isn't such a great choice when your vehicle spends most of the time 200 miles from the resort and spends over 95% of "winter" months actually driving on warm. dry pavement.  And, having spare rims and tires isn't optimal when you only head to the mountains once a month or so.  Are you going to change your rims 10 times a season, or will you go with really good all seasons and a pair of chains "just in case"?

 

True that. Has OP stated where he's based out of? As much as I'm a HUGE advocate of snow tires, location makes a big difference. If I lived in San Francisco, I'd probably have an AWD vehicle with great all-seasons, such as the Continental ExtremeContact DWS. If I lived around Tahoe, having good winter tires would obviously be a necessity.

 

If you go the AWD/All-season route because you live in a warmer place that's not by the mountains, then at least pay attention to your tire's condition on a regular basis. Don't be one of those cheapskates who is running up to the ski area on balding tires that were original equipment on his Subaru. I've seen that all too often. Had to go extract a friend's Forester a few weeks back. Dude had his crappy stock Kumho tires on it. Car would've been just fine had it been wearing some decent rubber.

post #86 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by NayBreak View Post


Do you know how a switch locks power 50/50 to the front and rear axles in a vehicle that does not have a center differential?

 

I think it's a clutch pack that sends power to the rear wheels.   Here's a good description of the three AWD systems offered by Honda/Acura, and why the "Real-time AWD" system stinks in the snow but the VTM-4 and SH-AWD systems work great:

 

http://www.piloteers.org/forums/67-performance/30386-pilot-vtm-4-awd-vs-mdx-sh-awd.html#post388679

post #87 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinFromSA View Post

Has OP stated where he's based out of?

The OP has fled, which it is time for all of us to do biggrin.gif

The context missed on this thread can be found in post #34 where the OP says one of his desired uses will be off road. This eliminates almost every recommendation made on this thread about vehicle type, drivetrain, or tire type.

It also makes things easy.

1) 4WD SUV with low range transfer case. OP is looking into 2 Toyotas for this purpose.

2) All terrain light truck tires with excellent winter traction characteristics. Goodyear Duratrac, Hankook Dynapro ATM, Toyo AT2, Nitto Terra Grappler are all excellent choices that eliminate the need for a dedicated winter tire.

I know point 2 above will inspire PDX to talk about his sandpaper silica tires again, and other people to talk about no season tires, and I would encourage all of you to let it be unless you have actual experience driving this type of vehicle with this type of tire in severe winter conditions.
post #88 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post

I think it's more about knowing how to drive in the conditions. Until my current Subaru Legacy GT, all my cars had good all season tires. I like the Michelin MXV4. My 92 Civic had them and we never missed a ski race the winters I had that car. Got my 1st Legacy GT in March 98, then a 00'GT,  I put the MXV4 on both those cars. Drove thur VT in some pretty bad conditions, white out's ice storms. Never had a issue.

 

My current GT wagon with 280whp I put snows on because I want even more traction.

 

I'm more worried about stopping than going.   Snow tires are going to stop faster and keep your vehicle in better control in an emergency situation, regardless of knowing how to drive in the conditions.  

 

You can probably get there with all-season tires.   You just have a better chance of getting home alive and in one piece with snow tires.

post #89 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post


That explains a lot.  The road to a ski area is usually the easiest drive in snow country,  The access road and parking lots are always plowed before the lifts open. Their business model depends on zero skill BMW drivers.  If that describes you, you really don't need to give advice to those of us who live here.

 

BK

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post

 

Clearly you have never been to Oregon.


Or North Carolina..

 

Wouldn't want to be on the other side of this on a bad day when you are coming the other way.  That is a cliff ahead and right of the backhoe.  Lost half the road two years ago and opted to just leave it one lane for the foreseeable future. Makes Eisenhower pass look like the high school driving school parking lot.

 

 

Thought you'd be the one in a BMW or Volvo.Foresters and Troopers work fine for me.  FWIW I rolled all around Upstate NY, Vermont, and New Hampshire in the late 80s.. all in 2WD rear drive vehicles with no problems either..  These mountain roads here are higher elevation than those are.  But like I said, I travel 170 miles of flat and dry to get to them, hence snows would burn up.


Edited by crgildart - 4/2/13 at 11:01am
post #90 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by tball View Post

I think it's a clutch pack that sends power to the rear wheels.   Here's a good description of the three AWD systems offered by Honda/Acura, and why the "Real-time AWD" system stinks in the snow but the VTM-4 and SH-AWD systems work great:

http://www.piloteers.org/forums/67-performance/30386-pilot-vtm-4-awd-vs-mdx-sh-awd.html#post388679

Right. A clutch pack system is a technical way to describe a type of limited slip differential. The friction force of all clutch systems will be overcome by too much differentiation. They cannot 'lock' power. That fancy VTM-4 diff fluid is a friction modifier so the clutches can engage while swimming in lubricant.

It is a slick way to eliminate a center diff while retaining actual center diff mechanical functionality by essentially using the rear diff as a center limited slip by orienting the clutch mechanics between front and rear rather than side to side. I think VTM-4 is pretty cool...but I have never tested to know if the failure point is typical of clutch LSD systems. Logically it is...google supports the logic...and it is a nice extra feature in the schema of AWD systems that are ditching mechanical traction entirely for VDC.

I'm out, ski trip coming up.
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