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2013 Carving Compilation - SL and GS - Page 3

post #61 of 66

Bob how about you identify the frames where Hirscher shows extension out of the turn.

post #62 of 66
NECoach--how about "I'm not going to play your little games of sophistry. Find someone else."

Best regards,
post #63 of 66


Originally Posted by Bob Barnes

The simple fact, though, remains that expert skiing and racing do often require extension out of the turn (even though there may be active flexion through the transition).
A simple fact should be simple to identify in this montage.


post #64 of 66

I agree with a lot of what Bob says. However, in a carved high performance short turn, which is what we are MAing here, I think it is a lot more about resisting then actually extending the leg.

Float is caused by a trajectory of the CoM, going up towards the end of the turn and coming back down into the next turn. This is necessary to keep the snow-ski force to a minimum in transition. 

This up motion of the CoM is caused primarily by vaulting towards the end of the turn. In a high performance turn the forces are really big here, and there is no need to extend the leg, you just need to resist the forces and you can even begin to flex before you retract more aggresively.

During the vaulting you need to time the retraction with accuracy, too late and you will land on the inside ski in the next turn, too early and you get too little float and have to rush the transition. The latter is what 223 is doing quite often IMO.

It is very tempting to give in to the forces and flex when the forces grow rapidly towards the end of the turn, but here is where you need to resist to create powerful turns.

I looked through some montages on Ron´s page and my conclusion is that when you see significant leg extension towards the end of the turn it is usually when the ski slips, that includes the montage up above in this thread.

However there are very few absolutes, and if you are resisting large forces the difference between flexing and extending is quite small. A small difference in terrain may make the difference between extending and flexing. What is important is that you are resisting the pressure, not whether the knee is flexing 2.6 degrees or extending 1.7 degrees.


In a turn with less performance/forces/angles you have more degrees of freedom whether you extend or flex, but what is right and wrong will never be agreed upon. Maybe there is no right or wrong outside of racing, just different kind of skiing :-)

post #65 of 66

 I agree with Jamt in that, DD223's transition is a bit rushed, and that he flexes a little too deeply in some instances--the float needs to be prolonged just a smidge longer. Interestingly, I feel that this is one cause for him to land on his inside later in the new turn--he isn't giving himself enough time or space to clear out his new inside (tip to little toe side/phantom move), so rather than letting his Cm fall into the new turn supported by his new outside in an inclinated stance, he instead begins a lot of his turns with inside bias, often necessitating too early angulation (so that he can maintain snow contact with his under-weighted outside). All of this causes him to exit some of his turns with inside bias, which is evidenced by his overly wide stance in transition.


   So in summation I would suggest he focus on not rushing things in an effort to get more performance out of his turns...instead, he needs to go back to focusing on the phantom move, ideally with some shorter radius/slower drills...also revisit the ideas behind counter acting and counter balancing. Patience in transition is key for all of us!! Of course, I'm definitely not overly familiar with all that is PMTS.


   I don't want to be too negative here though....DD223 is skiing great!! Clearly, he has "a knack for it"...biggrin.gif


   P.s. I think Bob's MA was very good--we should all be so lucky as to have him making montages for us.....



Edited by zentune - 5/19/13 at 8:55am
post #66 of 66
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

Consider the movements of bouncing high on a trampoline. You would "land" on the trampoline with legs substantially extended, and then flex your legs and entire body as the pressure builds, stretching the springs of the tramp as you coil your body in preparation for an explosive extension when the pressure reaches the maximum. The movements you tend to make in your video are just the opposite--when the pressure begins to max out, you flex your legs, effectively absorbing the (more lateral, because your skis are highly tipped at this moment) "push" from your skis. On a trampoline, that timing is what you would use to stop jumping, to prevent the tramp from pushing on you. IMO the trampoline example does not model a high performance retraction turn. Specifically there is no point of explosive extension at the point of max pressure. It would be impossible. The outside leg has reached full extension by this point. You cannot explosively extend if the leg is already at max extension.

So for more "lateral deflection" in your turns, you will need to give yourself permission to extend--often vigorously--when the pressure builds on your skis. Extend out of the pressure phase--not through the transition--when your skis are still tipped on edge and you are still inclined deeply into the turn, so that the extension accelerates you across the hill (not necessarily "up").

Keep in mind that the explosive effort I'm describing, while it may involve literally extending your legs and body at times, may also simply involve "not flexing" as you powerfully resist the forces of your skis pushing against you. IMO holding the outside leg extension to resist the pressure for another tenth of a second should not be called an explosive extension.


Timing is a factor that is forgotten too often. 


Hirscher has only .250 seconds to get from here - extended outside leg 



to here - flexed outside leg



There is no time to pause the retraction and explosively push to extend out of the turn.

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