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Kneebinding: off-topic from "I'm the person with the first ACL tear on a Knee Binding" - Page 4

post #91 of 265
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

 

Here are the facts so far:

Kneebinding has only 400,000 days of use maximum, the real number is likley much much lower.

Kneebinding is known to have caused or contributed to at least 10 ACL injures, with an additional 5 suspected ACL injuries attributed to them

Kneebinding has not been proven to reduce incidences of ACL injuries, at best it is no worse then the other brands.

 

800 ski instructors/patrollers, 100 days a year, five years would be 400,000 days for just 10% of Knee Bindings

 

Add in the other 7200 users, 20 days a year, five years that would be 720,000 days of use.

 

Likely more as we are now in year six and the 8000 number has gone up and another year and another 224,000 days of use.

 

As for Knee Bindings causing or contributing to ACL injuries while skiing, that's a bit upside down as all Knee Bindings would do would not prevent the ACL injuries.

 

But "known" ACL injuries with Knee Bindings are not known other than the one posted here in detail which seems clear it was not an ACL tear that Knee Bindings would have prevented.  Given the nature of Knee Binding customers, one would think they would be very vocal about Knee Binding not working when it was supposed to in regard to the backward skiing fall that accounts for 70% of ACL injuries.

 

It would be interesting to see actual data but then no binding mfg provides the injury data on their bindings.  Knee Bindings has certainly done way more than most on being transparent.

post #92 of 265

I am not buying this binding because of : unclear ownership issues, reliability issues, design issues, marketing issues, business ethics issues, "gondola not going to the top" issues, issues, issues, issues ... 

Concept is worthy of exploring and advancing.

Execution (all aspects of business cycle) needs advancing.

Carry on.

post #93 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by goranmilos View Post

I am not buying this binding because of : unclear ownership issues, reliability issues, design issues, marketing issues, business ethics issues, "gondola not going to the top" issues, issues, issues, issues ... 

Concept is worthy of exploring and advancing.

Execution (all aspects of business cycle) needs advancing.

Carry on.


I bought this binding because of design issues and manufacturing issues, it has good evidence it does help prevent the cause of 70% of ACL skiing injuries and customer service issues, Knee Bindings worked with my local ski shop, they provided personal service on mounting questions and when binding broke after two years, they provided a free new and upgraded product under warranty which has worked flawless for two years.

 

And last but not least, they have worked well for me on two sets of skis, have been skied hard with lots of crashes, released reliably.

post #94 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post


I bought this binding because of design issues and manufacturing issues, it has good evidence it does help prevent the cause of 70% of ACL skiing injuries and customer service issues, Knee Bindings worked with my local ski shop, they provided personal service on mounting questions and when binding broke after two years, they provided a free new and upgraded product under warranty which has worked flawless for two years.

 

And last but not least, they have worked well for me on two sets of skis, have been skied hard with lots of crashes, released reliably.

I am glad that your buying decision works for you. And it shows in your passionate responses about KneeBindings. It is just that it is too questionable to put my money and my wellbeing in such a controversial product.  With more positive response from users here on EpicSki i would not hesitate to spend $400 for KneeBindings. Unfortunately, at this point most posters on this thread and other KneeBinding related threads are not positive enough for me to consider KneeBinding product.

Get your Sh.t together and I will buy it. Im the meantime you guys can fight it out to extinction.

post #95 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post


I bought this binding because of design issues and manufacturing issues, it has good evidence it does help prevent the cause of 70% of ACL skiing injuries and customer service issues, Knee Bindings worked with my local ski shop, they provided personal service on mounting questions and when binding broke after two years, they provided a free new and upgraded product under warranty which has worked flawless for two years.

 

And last but not least, they have worked well for me on two sets of skis, have been skied hard with lots of crashes, released reliably.

 

In 15 years of competitive freestyle skiing with multiple pairs of skis for different events, the one thing I never broke was a binding. How did yours break? Did it happen while you were skiing or something you noticed afterwards?

post #96 of 265

Let's see, If I have this right.

KB bindings don't meet minimum ISO safety standards?

KB shipped bindings for a year that had afd's falling off and brakes that didn't deploy at times, but that has been fixed now? 

It kind of makes me wonder what I will learn in 5 years about the bindings they are shipping now.

 

No thank you, I'll stick to my Tyrolias and Marker Comps set at 3+ on the chart and try not to have any slow twisting backward falls. 

I'm supposed to believe anecdotal evidence over engineering tests?

As an engineer I'll go with the physical testing.

post #97 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by goranmilos View Post

I am glad that your buying decision works for you. And it shows in your passionate responses about KneeBindings. It is just that it is too questionable to put my money and my wellbeing in such a controversial product.  With more positive response from users here on EpicSki i would not hesitate to spend $400 for KneeBindings. Unfortunately, at this point most posters on this thread and other KneeBinding related threads are not positive enough for me to consider KneeBinding product.


More logical than "passionate".  Having researched it after an injury the Knee Binding makes sense.  That is pretty much the same pattern you hear from most Knee Binding customers.  Experienced skiers who put in much more than average time skiing who want to avoid one of the most frequent and major skiing injuries which is due to binding design.  Those who buy are happy with the product and have no issues. The engineering makes sense, the product history is good, the company's customer service is excellent.

 

As for the "posters" here, there seems to be a small, vocal group on Epic Ski who have no experience with the product or the company but for some reason doe have "issues" and voice a "passionate" dislike for both product and company but no experience with either. It almost seems like they are afraid it does work or it would invalidate their choice of products.  You see that with all kinds of products, cars, skis etc.

post #98 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by rx2ski View Post

 

In 15 years of competitive freestyle skiing with multiple pairs of skis for different events, the one thing I never broke was a binding. How did yours break? Did it happen while you were skiing or something you noticed afterwards?

I've broken skis (bent a Head Monster in Blowhole at Whistler...I'd still buy Heads), poles, helmets and bindings.  Had some internal thing go on Markers.  Looked fine but would not lock down.  Broke the knee binding on a backside bowl in some steep terrain in trees.  Crashed and I think one ski came down on the other ski binding hard enough to break the end.  Hard to really tell on a crash though.  Emailed Knee, got a call back as did ski shop who installed them two years prior and had brand new carbon fiber version of binding installed the next day, no charge.  Knee Bindings work fine.  Release when they should. Never had them come off when they shouldn't. The flexing on steep terrain is the main cause for pre-release on most bindings.

post #99 of 265
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Let's see, If I have this right.

KB bindings don't meet minimum ISO safety standards?

KB shipped bindings for a year that had afd's falling off and brakes that didn't deploy at times, but that has been fixed now? 

It kind of makes me wonder what I will learn in 5 years about the bindings they are shipping now.

 

No thank you, I'll stick to my Tyrolias and Marker Comps set at 3+ on the chart and try not to have any slow twisting backward falls. 

I'm supposed to believe anecdotal evidence over engineering tests?

As an engineer I'll go with the physical testing.


BTW, Ghost, I can sincerely assure you that not one pair of actual KneeBinding brand ski bindings was shipped (or contemplated being shipped) while I was president, CEO, secretary, and / or treasurer of KneeBinding, Inc.   The truth (my lawyers and I have it all documented by the emails and by solid witnesses) is that I was squeezed-out by "Chairman" and his wife expressly because I fought so hard to get it right BEFORE shipping product.   I was squeezed-out on September 15, 2008.   First product was shipped (after failing at TÜV in December, 2008) at the end of Dec, 2008.

 

(( Also, the only other person that I remember voting for "Chairman" to be Chairman of the BOD was his wife. ))

 

And to finally answer Chairman's wife's good question about which end of the binding the toe of the boot goes into — the toe of the boot goes into to the toe piece of the binding and the heel of the boot goes into the heel unit of the binding.

 

Rick Howell

Stowe, Vermont

 

(( PS —  I literally pray thanks to God EVERY day ... that I kept ALL of the emails from when I was President, CEO, secretary and treasurer at KneeBinding, Inc.   That's right, John, I have ALL of them  :)   Have nice day.  ))

 

.


Edited by Richard Howell - 3/27/13 at 4:59am
post #100 of 265
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISfromRI View Post

I have skied on KneeBindings for 285 ski days so far and have so far had a good experience. They ski well and just don't pre-release. These 285 ski days included countless conditions, terrain up to the pitch of the Tuckerman Ravine, hundreds of timed race runs, hundreds of gate training runs, and a real lot of falls from all matter of things including hooking my ski tip on gates to just me misjudging terrain or being clumsy. One time departing a chair lift I tangled with another skier and I fell with a slow backwards fall that I am confident would have re-injured my reconstructed ACL, had my KneeBinding not released with a lateral heel release. Thankfully I was fine.

 

I am truly sorry to hear of your injury Valli and sincerely wish you a speedy and full recovery! I am also very happy that I haven't suffered another knee injury myself. I know that nothing is guaranteed, and I'm using KneeBindings in an effort to tilt the statistics a bit further away from getting re-injured. I am looking to mitigate the likelihood of another knee injury because the last one cost me most of a ski season, $20 thousand, and 8 months of recovery. I also use a helmet to reduce the likelihood of a head injury (and that it's required by USSA), yet I have still been knocked unconscious while wearing a helmet. However, I could have been injured worse had I not been wearing it. All of this is simply managing risk and trying to mitigate the chance of injury as there are no guarantees. The only guarantee is that we are eventually all going to get hurt if we put ourselves out there enough, since this is all about statistics and the law of large numbers.


That's a bald-face lie.

post #101 of 265

I am just another "Joe" wanting to find out if KneeBinding's should be my next binding.  Something about "mitigating" ACL injuries appeals to me.

However, there is certainly a world of flack surrounding this product on EpicSki.

One side is trying to prove/refute historical data about knee injuries as they relate to KneeBinding's products.

Another side is a whole lawsuit that has some apparent basis in the lack of safety of these bindings.

 

You certainly have to pay attention when the designer says they are unsafe.  Then the question becomes whether or not that statement supports the litigation of not.  Just saying.

 

So as suggested, I tried to look up the TUV site to see what has been certified or not.

No one has answered the real question of whether or not the bindings are now TUV certified.

Here is the link to the TUV website that I found http://tuvamerica.com/tools/clientlists/certs.cfm and I cannot find anything regarding KneeBinding.

Am I looking in the wrong place?  Anyone have proof of TUV Certification of this binding?  If so, post the link please.

I did find Certification for the Rossi's I am using now however.

 

So far, I have not found anything or anyone that says these bindings are worse than anything else under your feet.  However, the number of postings on EpicSki by the proponents doesn't instill a lot of confidence that they do not have an agenda.

 

One also has to ask what is considered unsafe versus not being TUV Certified.  There are obviously a lot of Certified bindings out there that based upon the number of ACL injuries, might be considered unsafe?

 

The designer I believe indicated that with a few hours in the shop, he personally resolved all the issues he seemed to feel were of concern.

One of these is apparently the AFD molding coming up higher than the Teflon.

 

So what else might a person look to ah,  "adjust to suit them better"?

 

All else being equal, any chance at mitigating an ACL injury seems like a plus.  OBTW, the ramp angle adjustment feature is appealing as well.

 

So how "unsafe" are these bindings?  I mean compared to any others?  Or that said, is there another binding that is "safer"?

 

Cheers and perhaps unrealistically hoping for better clarity on this foggy topic.

post #102 of 265

hmmmm. I wouldn't say it's a bald faced lie... that one's not going to get you far in convincing anyone of anything. What I would say is that Chris's experience is anecdotal. I've also had a couple of slow backward falls and the bindings I ski didn't release... guess what? I'm fine.  Rule one, hands forward in that type of fall.  I've also fallen with and without a helmet. You guessed it again. I'm still fine. That's anecdotal as well, but I'm happy with my choices.

post #103 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

I've broken skis (bent a Head Monster in Blowhole at Whistler...I'd still buy Heads), poles, helmets and bindings.  Had some internal thing go on Markers.  Looked fine but would not lock down.  Broke the knee binding on a backside bowl in some steep terrain in trees.  Crashed and I think one ski came down on the other ski binding hard enough to break the end.  Hard to really tell on a crash though.  Emailed Knee, got a call back as did ski shop who installed them two years prior and had brand new carbon fiber version of binding installed the next day, no charge.  Knee Bindings work fine.  Release when they should. Never had them come off when they shouldn't. The flexing on steep terrain is the main cause for pre-release on most bindings.

"flexing on steep terrain", really? What are you talking about?

 

I've been skiing for close to 60 years on all kinds of terrain including the super steep, have taught a number of years, become certified, raced etc. I have certainly experienced pre-release on various Marker bindings, never thank god on the steeps. Funny, I never associated the steep terrain with flexing particularly or with pre release.

 

I have bent skis, broken skis, ripped the bindings out of skis but I can't recall ever breaking a binding. The fact that one ski falling on another may have broken your binding is astonishing, and you still think these are great bindings?

post #104 of 265

Mr. Howell is really damaging the reputation of this binding before it has a chance.  AFD and brakes are fixed, no?  The silence from jsm or knee bindings is deafening.   What a crazy situation.   

post #105 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by PetwJE View Post

Mr. Howell is really damaging the reputation of this binding before it has a chance.  AFD and brakes are fixed, no?  The silence from jsm or knee bindings is deafening.   What a crazy situation.   


I think JSM and EaglesPDX are really to blame here.  Wild claims, made up "data". argumentative with potential customers.......crazy indeed.

post #106 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhawk View Post

Another side is a whole lawsuit that has some apparent basis in the lack of safety of these bindings.

To be clear there in no lawsuit involving safety of Knee Bindings. As far as litigation. Knee Binding has won the only case to date on the facts.
post #107 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post


To be clear there in no lawsuit involving safety of Knee Bindings.

So far.  However at least 1 class action suit is pending, and possibly several other individual suits. 

post #108 of 265

Rick,

 

You must have me confused with someone else. I am indeed a paying customer and do indeed have the cancelled check for the pre-order I made at full price for my initial order of 5 units while I was still recovering from ACL reconstruction surgery over 5 seasons ago. I also have receipts for the subsequent units I purchased for the additional skis that I later added. The things you're saying are fiction, and the people whose initials you're saying are my friends I don't even know. Furthermore, I have never had a website that has had anything about skiing or ski equipment on it as you're saying I have.

 

I guess I touched a nerve when I asked if you were the engineer that chose self-stick to attach the low friction, slippery Teflon AFDs. I didn't actually know it was you that made this decision, but I suspected so since you were still there at the time when I ordered the first 5 and I briefly spoke with you on the phone back then to follow-up on the status of my pre-paid pre-order. That order arrived shortly after we spoke, though I was already 14 ski days into that 58 ski day season. That the units were shipping late was the cause for my concern and my phone call. That you were there at that time could mean that making the decision to use self-stick to attach Telfon would have been within your purview. From your reaction I can see that this was case, though it's water under the bridge for many years now.

 

I do sincerely hope that you can suppress your self-destructive tendency, and maintain your composure rather than lashing out at paying customers. Remember that I paid for my first 5 units while you were still an employee there, and I was your customer back then. Keep your chin up, Chris

post #109 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

So far.  However at least 1 class action suit is pending, and possibly several other individual suits. 

Well do share them with us. Vailli posted "the first ACL tear on knee bindings." As a Knee Binding customer I would have to included and legally notified of a class action suit. We have to discount Howell's suits as being business and personal in nature and having been dismissed by the court based on the facts.
post #110 of 265
Thread Starter 

Dear Eagles Pdx:

 

The matter concerning the lawsuit that I'm involved in with KneeBinding is hardly over and your view of a winner at this stage is incorrect and outrageous.

 

Rick Howell

Stowe, VT

post #111 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post


Well do share them with us. Vailli posted "the first ACL tear on knee bindings." As a Knee Binding customer I would have to included and legally notified of a class action suit. We have to discount Howell's suits as being business and personal in nature and having been dismissed by the court based on the facts.

These dont include RHs, these are saftey related.  And "no" you dont need to be "legally" notified...rolleyes.gif......people can join or not (its how they work)....you dont even need to be epidemilogically notifed biggrin.gif.

 

 

Seems you know as much about law, as you do epidemology, stastics, data and Kneebindings.


Edited by Skidude72 - 3/27/13 at 5:48pm
post #112 of 265

Everything I stated in my post is absolutely honest and true, or what I believe to be true! 

 

Rick has unfortunately switched to self-destruct mode and is now lashing out at paying customers. This poor fellow is a paranoid schizophrenic and this episode demonstrates his Mr. Hyde personality delusion.

post #113 of 265
Thread Starter 

@ CHRISfromRI :     Sorry, Chris, you are patently incorrect.   I was squeezed-out of KneeBinding, Inc. exactly on Sept 15, 2008.  The first products shipped by KneeBinding, Inc. were at the end of December 2008.   Pls stop your wrongful statements.

 

Rick Howell

Stowe, Vermont

post #114 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

These dont include RHs, these are saftey related.  

 

 

I'm curious about this, Skidude.  What's this about, and where can I read more.

 

Thx.

post #115 of 265
Thread Starter 

@ CHRISfromRI,    Your comment to me is incorrect and your history of your utilization of the product conveniently forgets that you told all of us here on Epic that you had no problems during the 2008/09 season, but when a number of other Epic bloggers posted at the end of the 2008/09 season that they did have problems on KneeBinding, you then switched your story to admit that you had problems.    Sincerely,  Rick Howell

post #116 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post

 

 

I'm curious about this, Skidude.  What's this about, and where can I read more.

 

Thx.


As I understand its related to false safety claims.  If you read another thread on this site, about Atomic bindings being recalled and some not, you will see how this stuff goes.  When Class Actions are taken, there will usually be some form of an advertising campaign seeking people to participate in the action (obvioulsy you would need to meet the criteria as a person eligable)....however these things are expensive to run, and you cant get money from a stone, so things might not go ahead if the litigants beleive there is little chance of recovery of monies awarded.  Which since KB is so small is likley. I dont know any of the particulars.

post #117 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Howell View Post

@ CHRISfromRI :     Sorry, Chris, you are patently incorrect.   I was squeezed-out of KneeBinding, Inc. exactly on Sept 15, 2008.  The first products shipped by KneeBinding, Inc. were at the end of December 2008.   Pls stop your wrongful statements.

 

Rick Howell

Stowe, Vermont

Cancelled/Paid check was October 23, 2008, and my first 5 units were received and mounted by early 2009.

post #118 of 265

Trying to piece together various conflicting statements it seems to me that there ought not necessarily be a conflict here. The fact that people appreciate the attempt to provide a binding that protects against ACL injuries and that at least anecdotally they may provide at least some protection seems to be a vindication of the original design concept. Howell's claim seems to be that the product that was pushed into production contained flaws in detailling and manufacture, if I understand this correctly. It would seem that the binding's failure to pass TUV testing is evidence of that. I'm still waiting for a refutation of those assertions. The objective evidence seems to support his statements in other words. Even the binding's supporters acknowledge there have been failures. PDX says his binding broke from a ski falling on it! All of the passion evidenced here does not make much headway against the facts as we've heard them.

 

The thread was originally about an individual's injury while using the bindings. I don't pretend to know the whole story about these bindings but I have to say that, objectively speaking, significant doubt has been introduced that they are what they are intended to be.

post #119 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by PetwJE View Post

Mr. Howell is really damaging the reputation of this binding before it has a chance.  AFD and brakes are fixed, no?  The silence from jsm or knee bindings is deafening.   What a crazy situation.   


I think Mr. Howell is more damaging his own reputation with content and tone of his messages.  If you mean Howell Binding Inc, you may be right.  It would certainly scare off future investors for his new product.  As for Knee Binding, due to the exaggerated nature of Mr. Howell's posts, they likely get dismissed in regard to Knee Bindings.  We don't really see an negative comments about Knee Bindings from Mr. Howell, likely due to his losing the first lawsuit and the judges orders, just innuendos and rhetorical questions.

 

As for Knee Bindings posting here, they did extensively on another thread when the topic was technical and performance issues, but getting into a flame war with small clique on a blog is pointless. When Mr. Howell stalks those conversations and injects himself, doubly so due to Mr. Howell's legal issues with Knee Binding.

post #120 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

These dont include RHs, these are saftey related.  And "no" you dont need to be "legally" notified...rolleyes.gif......people can join or not (its how they work)....you dont even need to be epidemilogically notifed biggrin.gif.

 

 

Seems you know as much about law, as you do epidemology, stastics, data and Kneebindings.

 

So you don't know of any lawsuit by users of Knee Bindings. Thanks for the clarification.

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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Après-Ski › Kneebinding: off-topic from "I'm the person with the first ACL tear on a Knee Binding"