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Effect of binding in forward/rearward location?

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
Just wondering, what would be the effect of having binding moved forward/rearward a few cm? Many skis comes with demo style binding lately it's pretty easy to move them forward/backward a bit.
post #2 of 17

Usually, forward makes turning easier and rearward give more stability.  It should only b e done if needed.  If you move them forward and it isn't needed, you will have to reposition your body rearward.

 

i had always been a believer of setting the bindings position on ball of foot (bof) over center of running surface of the ski, and have found it rewards back sear skiing, at least for me.  

 

I changed out much of my gear this season and went back to manufacturing recommendations for binding position and I've never skied as well.  Without a doubt, the binding position wasn't the only thing changed, but it was a contributor..

post #3 of 17

A ski mounted forward of the line will be easier to pivot/skid, but will typically lose edge hold and carving ability due to having less ski up front to engage. Flotation in powder also gets reduced.

 

A mount back typically makes a ski more of a carver, but with a heavier, less playfull feeling, as it takes more effort to pivot a turn when needed.

 

A skier looking to make a ski easier to haul over for faster turns in tight trees would look at a forward mount.

 

If skis feel too big and hard to turn, forward mount.

 

If skis feel like they are wadering all over the snow, or will skid out instead of carve, move the mount back.

 

If skitips are diving in soft snow and its tough to get them to float, move the mount back.

 

Demo bindings can be helpful to change around depending on the conditions the ski is going out in.  The downside is they have additional weight, additional slop in the assembly, additional stack height, and some have reliability concerns- I'd be pretty hesitant to ski a demo binding at any higher than DIN 10, and even there, I wouldn't put demo bindings on a ski that was going to see regular cliff hucks, big time park, or other high-impact skiing.

post #4 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post

A ski mounted forward of the line will be easier to pivot/skid, but will typically lose edge hold and carving ability due to having less ski up front to engage. Flotation in powder also gets reduced.

 

A mount back typically makes a ski more of a carver, but with a heavier, less playfull feeling, as it takes more effort to pivot a turn when needed.

 

Is that right?  I haven't experimented but I thought it would be the opposite...less ski in back would make pushing tails and skidding easier and less ski in front would make leading with the tips and carving easier.  No?

post #5 of 17

Anachronism is correct, not everyone is going to have the same experience, but in general more shovel makes a ski perform better for someone who get's forward on the ski and drives it. More centered is easier to skid and pivot, the ski may feel more 'balanced' and it will initiate turns easier. It will also feel better if the skier skis with more weight on his/her heels.

post #6 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abox View Post

 

Is that right?  I haven't experimented but I thought it would be the opposite...less ski in back would make pushing tails and skidding easier and less ski in front would make leading with the tips and carving easier.  No?

The additional ski in front creates more opportunity for the tips to catch, which is usually what interferes with a pivot/skid turn.

post #7 of 17

How much movement fore/aft are we talking here?  mm?  or cm? 

I'm interested b/c I'm trying to maximize my NOS Dynastar CrossTi.  They seem oddly wrong for me -- I feel unbalanced and lose confidence, esp moving from groomed to ungroomed territory.  I've pondered ramp angle AND binding placement.  I'm still trying to work this out.

post #8 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by tch View Post

How much movement fore/aft are we talking here?  mm?  or cm? 

I'm interested b/c I'm trying to maximize my NOS Dynastar CrossTi.  They seem oddly wrong for me -- I feel unbalanced and lose confidence, esp moving from groomed to ungroomed territory.  I've pondered ramp angle AND binding placement.  I'm still trying to work this out.

 

For MOST skis used in TYPICAL conditions, we are talking about a mounting range 2 CM in front or behind the recommended mount line.

 

Skis that were designed with some park use in mind can have a huge swing in mount locations. My K2 Kung Fujas has mount marks on the ski from "Traditional" to 7.5CM in front of that, and the +7.5 is the recommended mount location for a pure park ski.

 

Without demo bindings, Marker Schizo bindings, or a system binding where the front and rear toe can be moved independently, changing mount obviously requires a new drill, and there are real limits to how many times you can drill a ski.  Many people start getting hesitant about the impacts to the ski once it has been drilled three times, and past this point you will start to run into problems just finding room for the new holes.

 

For most popular skis, you can find an online discussion about what mount location people are using and how they like it. Give more credence to people that are happy with their mounts that weight around the same as you, ski in similar regions and similar snow conditions, and pay attention to what they want the ski to do.

post #9 of 17

I am trying to figure out if there is an easy way to determine if the mount line on a twin tip is set for switch or uni-directional skiing.  Switch and park skiing uses a much farther forward mounting position, but how do I tell if that is where they put the mount line on my twin tips so that I need to mount them considerably father back for regular skiing? 

post #10 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot View Post

I am trying to figure out if there is an easy way to determine if the mount line on a twin tip is set for switch or uni-directional skiing.  Switch and park skiing uses a much farther forward mounting position, but how do I tell if that is where they put the mount line on my twin tips so that I need to mount them considerably father back for regular skiing? 

 

Google it, and find a thread. Most skis designed for park will have at least two different mount lines for park and traditional, and failing that, the manufacturers website usually will show recommended mounts.  Failing all of this, give the manufacturer a ring and ask.

post #11 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot View Post

I am trying to figure out if there is an easy way to determine if the mount line on a twin tip is set for switch or uni-directional skiing.  Switch and park skiing uses a much farther forward mounting position, but how do I tell if that is where they put the mount line on my twin tips so that I need to mount them considerably father back for regular skiing? 


Measure, park skiers for the most part all want to be 'true center'. If the line is anywhere near dead center move back 4cm or so, or find center of running surface (for a rockered ski I'd measure contact point of sidecut to contact point of sidecut) and place the ball of foot there... then just eye ball if it looks 'right'.

post #12 of 17

Seems like the best thing to do is buy a pair of Marker Schizos since you can move them 3cm front and 3cms back from mount position.

post #13 of 17

Generally:

 

Forward mount will make it easier to intiate turns.

 

Rear mount will make it easier to end turns.

 

 

 

 

This is why forward mount skis might seem "squirrly"....and rear mount skis seem "stable".  Forward wants to turn (ie intiate)...rear wants to turn less (ie end a turn).

 

 

Hence put another way:  Forward is more manevourable...rear is more stable.

post #14 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

Usually, forward makes turning easier and rearward give more stability.  It should only b e done if needed.  If you move them forward and it isn't needed, you will have to reposition your body rearward.

 

i had always been a believer of setting the bindings position on ball of foot (bof) over center of running surface of the ski, and have found it rewards back sear skiing, at least for me.  

 

I changed out much of my gear this season and went back to manufacturing recommendations for binding position and I've never skied as well.  Without a doubt, the binding position wasn't the only thing changed, but it was a contributor..

Interesting, I have two pair of skis with adjustable bindings (and one set non adj.)  I occasionally play around with mounting positions but always end up at roughly bof mounting as being the best for me.  I can switch between skis and I like that they feel similarly balanced for carving (I'm not a jib park skier).  FWIW my skis range from +17mm, -1cm, and -1.5cm.       

post #15 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarloafer321 View Post

Seems like the best thing to do is buy a pair of Marker Schizos since you can move them 3cm front and 3cms back from mount position.

 

I love the idea, but I'm really not sold on the Schizo's durability, it seems like they can be very finicky, especially trying to move them mid day on the slope when they are packed with snow and ice.

 

If I really wanted to change mount on the fly, I'd probably lean towards a demo binding- they can be had for less than the Schizo, and I trust them a bit more (although less than a standard drilled and bolted in place binding).

 

The only downside to a demo vs. the Schizo is that you have to reset forward pressure after moving the binding around, but even that can be done on-slope in a few moments with just a screwdriver.

 

I think people overestimate how often they will want to move stuff around.  I had a set of Apache Recons with demo Sally Z12's, I started with them on the recommended mount, then after two seasons found the ski felt too short for me and moved them back, which felt better. My wife has a set of k2 Missbehaveds with Z12 demos, smae thing- after a year she found she was going over the handlebars in deep snow, so we moved them back, which helped but didn't solve the propblem (she needs a longer ski).

 

I've never found a need to adjust the skis for specific conditions.

 

Of course, this probably goes out the window for a park skier, where a guy would want to spend 3 hours in the park with the skis +3, then would like to move them back for traditional skiing on the rest of the mountain.  However, I suspect nobody in this thread is really looking at binding mounts for park purposes.

post #16 of 17

I like the Head PRD12's for quick adjustability.  They seem durable, not heavy and aren't that expensive .

post #17 of 17

I just proved the info in this thread is true.  I've got some fairly soft 186 cm twin tip skis with early rise in the tips and tails. I loved them in soft snow, but they totally sucked on anything hard and would not carve to save my life.  Moved the bindings 1 cm back behind the factory mount line, which now puts them over 7 cm behind the middle of the ski.  It completely changed their performance on hard snow and allows me to pressure the front of the ski without them immediately washing out.  The small change resulted in a huge improvement in performance.

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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › Effect of binding in forward/rearward location?