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Detuning a Bonafide- too much?

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 

Ski a Bonafide 180cm-- I'm a strong skier but am still developing my "tuning feel" so need some advice.  Had the ski tuned mid day by a guy that my racer friends say is really good.  Edges sharpened and detuned tip and tail back to the point where the rocker hits the snow.  That is pretty far on the tip, and more than I had ever detuned.  Afterwards, skis felt terrible-- very tip hooky and unpredictable rolling onto the edges, which is very uncharacteristic of these skis.  Admittedly the snow was grabby, but I think it was more than just the feeling of sharp edges.  It was not linear as I bent the ski into the turn.

 

I'm wondering if the ski was detuned too far, so the transition from dull to sharp was right at a transition point as the skis flexed.  The tuner was very willing to work with me, and our final solution was to run a gummy down the whole edge and that got the ski linear again.  But I want my sharp edges back.  I'm thinking that I'll have them sharpen the whole edge and then progressively detune myself if needed.

 

Thoughts?  Thanks.

post #2 of 28

Not a big fan of rockered tips.

 

I never de-tune a shaped ski.

 

I hope the base was flat before the tune was done.

 

I tune my own skis, even when the snow is grabby, my skis never have any issues with edge hold or turning.

 

Yours may have been railed.

 

 

 


I recently demoed the Volkl Mantra, I talked with the Volkl Rep about his tuning, The guy hand tunes his demo skis.

 

He told me he tuned the Mantra's at .75 and 3. He tunes the wider skis at .75 on the bases. I tune all my skis at 1 and 3.

post #3 of 28

IDK... it sounds to me like those rockers are (mis) behaving exactly they way they are supposed to on hardpack..

post #4 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyeballs19 View Post

Ski a Bonafide 180cm-- I'm a strong skier but am still developing my "tuning feel" so need some advice.  Had the ski tuned mid day by a guy that my racer friends say is really good.  Edges sharpened and detuned tip and tail back to the point where the rocker hits the snow.  That is pretty far on the tip, and more than I had ever detuned.  Afterwards, skis felt terrible-- very tip hooky and unpredictable rolling onto the edges, which is very uncharacteristic of these skis.  Admittedly the snow was grabby, but I think it was more than just the feeling of sharp edges.  It was not linear as I bent the ski into the turn.

I'm wondering if the ski was detuned too far, so the transition from dull to sharp was right at a transition point as the skis flexed.  The tuner was very willing to work with me, and our final solution was to run a gummy down the whole edge and that got the ski linear again.  But I want my sharp edges back.  I'm thinking that I'll have them sharpen the whole edge and then progressively detune myself if needed.

Thoughts?  Thanks.

I wouldn't detune quite that far on the Bonafides. 6" in the tip is Max if you're skiing them off groomed most of the time. They shouldn't be dull either just not as sharp as the rest of the ski. Detuning should be progressive, there shouldn't be a dramatic difference. It shouldn't 't go from dull to sharp in the matter of an inch. Dull at the very ends (past fattest part of sidecut) the progressively sharp until you get to the sharpest point (which is determined by the ski and/or personal preference)
post #5 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

IDK... it sounds to me like those rockers are (mis) behaving exactly they way they are supposed to on hardpack..

 

Wrong wrong wrong!!! I just skied a bonafide. They were almost new. They are tuned to a 1/3 from the factory. I measured them with an SVST bevelmeter! You absolutely do not want to detune them. and the skis DO NOT act exactly like that on the groomed. NO early No way, no how! In fact you need the thing sharp tip to tail. When you get the ski up on edge the edge the tip contacts the snow far in front of the contact point when the the ski was flat. This is not the only early rise ski I have skied. None of the skied like the OP described. The tuner F-ed 'em up. Hanging burr is most likely. The Blizzard tune is excellent from the factory and the cause is not due to a concave base. and even if the base was concave in the center if it is flat 10mm in from each edge they would ski fine. If he worked on the base edge (he would have had to stone grind them) then the ski is underbeveled in the tip and tail.Can really be only 1 of 3 things There is a hanging burr, edges not polished thoroughly or wrong too aggressive grind structure that also was imparted into the base edge or underbeveled in the tip and tail. If you were in my local I'd fix 'em for ya!
post #6 of 28
Thread Starter 

Thanks all; appreciate the perspective and the help.  You confirmed my thoughts and gave me some possible solutions. Straight out of the wrapper they were just fantastic, so I don't think it is the design.  I'm going to get them retuned, sharpened to 1/3 tip to tail and tweak from there. 

 

Good learning experience for me.  Thanks again for the insight.

post #7 of 28

   I would like to add...significant detuning is a thing of the past--special circumstances such as unexpectedly hard, chalky (DRY) snow being a possible exception. Seems to be a lot of this still being put into practice nowadays by shops...ask them NOT to detune...then, if they seem grabby in the tip, you can do it yourself, incrementally, with a gummi at home or on the slope.

 

   zenny

post #8 of 28

I got new skis and the shop that mounted the bindings convinced me to do "new ski prep". They detuned them, not as much as in the case of Eyballs, and it was progressive. But they didn't feel as good and predictable on hard pack and ice as the demo that I had done. I could manage it, but it just wasn't as good. This supports the Atomicman's theory – don't detune bonifide.

I wish I had seen this post before I took my skis to the shop. I just wonder if I should take them back to have them sharpened now.

post #9 of 28
I've been having a tough time getting used to early rise and the difference between contact point when flat on the snow and contact point on edge. When I had the bindings put on, the shop wanted to detune about eight inches down. I never detune any of my other skis and I had a fight with them about it. Picture two young shop guys fighting with an old lady.. Anyway, took them out the first run, not the ideal conditions, got on a firmly-buffed cat track, and the skis suddenly engaged rapidly and I took off up an embankment. So, I took them in, had the side bevel changed to what I normally ski, still no detuning, and went out again. Same issues, but better. It was end of season, so I just changed to my old skis and decided to do a complete tune on them myself before the next season so at least I would know the results of each change.

Sharpened them myself and then initially detuned then back to the contact point when flat, but lightly. Thought about it a bit more, and above the contact point when on edge, increased the base bevel a bit because that hooking really worried me. Took them out this season and discovered:

1 - Main issue is they are just DIFFERENT from my old skis. They like a slightly different balance point and they turn totally differently from my other skis. It took me weeks to get it right, while I LEARNED to love them.

2 - I'm gradually moving the sharpness forward and no longer detuning them.

3 - I am now having almost as much trouble going BACK to my other skis as I have adapting to these.

I think some of us have issues adapting to new skis with radically different technology, shape, stiffness, width, length, and tuning from what we are used to, and we have to spend time with a ski before we should blame our problems on the ski. And personally, I wouldn't trust a guy in a shop unless he/she was my clone. In fact, based on what I've heard on this forum, they may not do what you tell them to do or even what they tell you they did. I could tell when I started working on these things that the guy who changed my bevel had winged it free hand as the bevel wasn't constant along the edge, for instance.. I'm in search of a shop I can trust again.
post #10 of 28

I had the exact same experience with K2 Rictors,   Got them and they performed so well my skiing definitely jumped a notch or two. Not just my imagination as some FIS rated friends I ski with commented and thought I had been taking lessons.  

 

Mid year, get a full tune and suddenly I can't ski them.   Atomicman gave me some suggestions on specs to retune, took them too the shop which retuned them with a smile for no charge.

 

They seemed better after that.   K2 also replied with the factory specs on the skis. 

 

If you search for "K2 Rictor" that thread should show up, lots of good info on general tuning and "restoring" ski to regain the magic.

 

I think I'm going to get the full tuning kit gear and do them myself next year, starting with K2 specs at one end and Atomicmans's at the other and see how they ski.

post #11 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

I had the exact same experience with K2 Rictors,   Got them and they performed so well my skiing definitely jumped a notch or two. Not just my imagination as some FIS rated friends I ski with commented and thought I had been taking lessons.  

 

Mid year, get a full tune and suddenly I can't ski them.   Atomicman gave me some suggestions on specs to retune, took them too the shop which retuned them with a smile for no charge.

 

They seemed better after that.   K2 also replied with the factory specs on the skis. 

 

If you search for "K2 Rictor" that thread should show up, lots of good info on general tuning and "restoring" ski to regain the magic.

 

I think I'm going to get the full tuning kit gear and do them myself next year, starting with K2 specs at one end and Atomicmans's at the other and see how they ski.

   Atomicman knows his stufficon14.gif

 

   zenster

post #12 of 28

It's personal preference. 

 

My Bones skied great right from the wrapper.

 

They skied better-- both on and off piste-- with a fresh base grind, base 1 edges 3, and detuned via stone + gummi tips and tails from the very end to the beginning of the relatively short taper. So not that much detuning, but enough to make sure only the skiable radius of the ski was sharp and the inward taper not. If you detuned all the way to the contact points of the camber (where the rocker starts)... you'd be detuning a lot. 

post #13 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyeballs19 View Post

Thanks all; appreciate the perspective and the help.  You confirmed my thoughts and gave me some possible solutions. Straight out of the wrapper they were just fantastic, so I don't think it is the design.  I'm going to get them retuned, sharpened to 1/3 tip to tail and tweak from there. 

 

Good learning experience for me.  Thanks again for the insight.


 i just got mine back from starthaus w/ the 1/3 and grind and it's so nice. 2 years of abuse and now a new lease on life. The key is finding the best possible shop,and then avoiding rocks

post #14 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by natrat View Post


 i just got mine back from starthaus w/ the 1/3 and grind and it's so nice. 2 years of abuse and now a new lease on life. The key is finding the best possible shop,and then avoiding rocks

 

Especially with a 1 and 3. smile.gif

post #15 of 28

Is there any pro/con to a 1/3 tune on a Bonafide or similarly-waisted ski?  Would the extra degree make much difference on the hardpack for a 1/2 tune with a wider ski?  I use a 1/3 on my skinny carvers, but not so sure about a 98mm ski.

 

Any advice/explanation?

post #16 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnerbob View Post

Is there any pro/con to a 1/3 tune on a Bonafide or similarly-waisted ski?  Would the extra degree make much difference on the hardpack for a 1/2 tune with a wider ski?  I use a 1/3 on my skinny carvers, but not so sure about a 98mm ski.

 

Any advice/explanation?

Absolutely,

 

Give a lot more edge grip on hard snow, just like on a carver and the Bonafide needs all the help it can get in this area!

 

The Bonafide comes with a 1/3 from the factory. I recently measured a new pair.

 

A 3 degree side edge transformed my Head Mojo 94 and Monster 88 into excellent hard-pack skis, with no negative effect in soft snow. In fact if you get variable off piste conditions with hard areas or hard bumps underneath it is a huge plus!

post #17 of 28

I tune my Bonafides myself at 1/3, sharp from tip to tail.  It took a little while to learn to ski them, mostly due to the way the effective edge elongates when tipped on edge, not due to excessive sharpness.  Since I'm light, I need all the help I can get on hard/icy snow.  I would never consider dulling the edges.

post #18 of 28

I had a bitter feud with my shop, taking my beloved Bodacious in for a full tune to repair to a major core shot at the edge, the shop insisted that the Blizzard "recommendation" at 1 and 2 be ground while I specifically requested the 1 and 3 EVERY good tuner knows so well.  The shop clerk put up a hissy fit and charged me an extra $10 for my "special request", he even asked if i wanted three on the base?!?

 

Sure enough the next day the edges were much thinner and the side looked way too square to my liking.  After bitching out the manager I swore to never leave my skis ANYWHERE they ask if I want the 3 on the base, I would have been unbelievably infuriated if my boards came back like that.

 

Perhaps I need to get my own edge guides.

post #19 of 28

Interesting.  I brought in a pair of 67mm carvers to a local shop and asked for a 1/3.  He looked at me and asked "1/3 ?!" and I said "YES".  He agreed, though I got the impression he thought I was either crazy or a gaper.  A 1/3 on a slalom ski is not unusual, wow.

 

I'm wondering if a 1/3 on a 98mm ski, like the Bonafide, Mantra, Experience 98.....would be a smart move or if a shop tech would have a heart attack.  I honestly can't see a 1/3 hurting on the hardpack in Vermont or out West, which is where I'd pretty much use them.  I have the SL skis for local ice hills.

 

Phil, Dawg, Whiteroom, anyone else in the tuning business......what about a 1/3 on a 98mm ski?  Crazy or not???

post #20 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnerbob View Post

Interesting.  I brought in a pair of 67mm carvers to a local shop and asked for a 1/3.  He looked at me and asked "1/3 ?!" and I said "YES".  He agreed, though I got the impression he thought I was either crazy or a gaper.  A 1/3 on a slalom ski is not unusual, wow.

 

I'm wondering if a 1/3 on a 98mm ski, like the Bonafide, Mantra, Experience 98.....would be a smart move or if a shop tech would have a heart attack.  I honestly can't see a 1/3 hurting on the hardpack in Vermont or out West, which is where I'd pretty much use them.  I have the SL skis for local ice hills.

 

Phil, Dawg, Whiteroom, anyone else in the tuning business......what about a 1/3 on a 98mm ski?  Crazy or not???

    I have volkl mantras upon which I promptly imparted a 1/3 once getting them home....NOT crazy!

     

 

    zenny

post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnerbob View Post

Interesting.  I brought in a pair of 67mm carvers to a local shop and asked for a 1/3.  He looked at me and asked "1/3 ?!" and I said "YES".  He agreed, though I got the impression he thought I was either crazy or a gaper.  A 1/3 on a slalom ski is not unusual, wow.

 

I'm wondering if a 1/3 on a 98mm ski, like the Bonafide, Mantra, Experience 98.....would be a smart move or if a shop tech would have a heart attack.  I honestly can't see a 1/3 hurting on the hardpack in Vermont or out West, which is where I'd pretty much use them.  I have the SL skis for local ice hills.

 

Phil, Dawg, Whiteroom, anyone else in the tuning business......what about a 1/3 on a 98mm ski?  Crazy or not???

No faith in my advice , aye!words.gif

 

My slaloms have a .7/4rolleyes.gif

 

And again, dude, the Bonafide comes from the factory with a 1/3

post #22 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

    I have volkl mantras upon which I promptly imparted a 1/3 once getting them home....NOT crazy!

     

 

    zenny

Zenny, ur not on the preferred list!duel.gif

post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnerbob View Post

Interesting.  I brought in a pair of 67mm carvers to a local shop and asked for a 1/3.  He looked at me and asked "1/3 ?!" and I said "YES".  He agreed, though I got the impression he thought I was either crazy or a gaper.  A 1/3 on a slalom ski is not unusual, wow.

 

I'm wondering if a 1/3 on a 98mm ski, like the Bonafide, Mantra, Experience 98.....would be a smart move or if a shop tech would have a heart attack.  I honestly can't see a 1/3 hurting on the hardpack in Vermont or out West, which is where I'd pretty much use them.  I have the SL skis for local ice hills.

 

Phil, Dawg, Whiteroom, anyone else in the tuning business......what about a 1/3 on a 98mm ski?  Crazy or not???

 

Yeah, Gunner... crazy, since as Atomic and others have mentioned-- that's how the Blizzard's come from the factory. And their goal is to make you ski poorly and have your local techs laugh at you. 

post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by justruss View Post

 

Yeah, Gunner... crazy, since as Atomic and others have mentioned-- that's how the Blizzard's come from the factory. And their goal is to make you ski poorly and have your local techs laugh at you. 

Exactly!icon14.gif

post #25 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnerbob View Post

Interesting.  I brought in a pair of 67mm carvers to a local shop and asked for a 1/3.  He looked at me and asked "1/3 ?!" and I said "YES".  He agreed, though I got the impression he thought I was either crazy or a gaper.  A 1/3 on a slalom ski is not unusual, wow.

 

I'm wondering if a 1/3 on a 98mm ski, like the Bonafide, Mantra, Experience 98.....would be a smart move or if a shop tech would have a heart attack.  I honestly can't see a 1/3 hurting on the hardpack in Vermont or out West, which is where I'd pretty much use them.  I have the SL skis for local ice hills.

 

Phil, Dawg, Whiteroom, anyone else in the tuning business......what about a 1/3 on a 98mm ski?  Crazy or not???

 

For the east, I'd think 1 and 3 or even .75 and 3 would be pretty normal. It's certainly what I'd do to my skis, and of course, if I'd do it, it must be really kuuul...  wink.gif


Edited by markojp - 4/3/13 at 9:14am
post #26 of 28

LOL, must be the local shop techs who only see skinny skis for little frozen Ontario, race-oriented hills.

 

Looks like 1/3 is the magical combo in my future.....for my skinnies and fatties alike!  biggrin.gif

post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnerbob View Post

LOL, must be the local shop techs who only see skinny skis for little frozen Ontario, race-oriented hills.

 

Looks like 1/3 is the magical combo in my future.....for my skinnies and fatties alike!  biggrin.gif

 

Funny, most race skis even out here in the PNW are 1 and 3. I'm wondering about your tech at this point. For fat skis, (100+) I'd do 1 and 2... there's no point to that much edge if you'll be using it primarily in soft snow/powder days. Just MHO of course! smile.gif YMMV

post #28 of 28

Yeah, I think most fat skis (meaning 110+ to me) have something like "2 on the edge, and let it dull itself down to whatever over time" as a common philosophy. 

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