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GS length for 10-year old

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 

My 10-year old daughter is about to end her first season in a race club. She's only been on a SL-ski (Elan RCX Plate 130 cm), but I'm planning to get her GS-skis for next season. My orginal idea was to wait until fall and buy a pair of used GS-skis. But I just got a good end of season-offer on the 2012/13 Elan RCG GS ski, and I'm trying to decide on length--they come in 152 and 160. She's 141 cm/33 kg now, and it is off course hard to tell how much she'll grow, but she'll probably be a centimeter or two taller and a few kg heavier after the summer. Anyone that have some advice?

post #2 of 29

If you are set on those the 152 for sure......even at 152 they are likely too big.

post #3 of 29
Thread Starter 

I'm not set on those, but it's a good offer. But I'm completely sure 152 isn't too long, I'm worried they'll be short by the end of next season. Ideally I'd get a 155-ski, but this offer doesn't come in that length. What makes you think a 152 will be too much? Many of the kids in her group has been on 155's and some of the physically bigger boys and girls even on 160's already this season.

 

Christian

post #4 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlsson View Post

I'm not set on those, but it's a good offer. But I'm completely sure 152 isn't too long, I'm worried they'll be short by the end of next season. Ideally I'd get a 155-ski, but this offer doesn't come in that length. What makes you think a 152 will be too much? Many of the kids in her group has been on 155's and some of the physically bigger boys and girls even on 160's already this season.

 

Christian

 

But she isnt physically bigger.....even Lindsey Vonn's GS skis are roughly to a little over head height. 

 

Have a look:

 

http://www.zimbio.com/Lindsey+Vonn/articles/vMYem-YLbnP/Lindsey+Vonn+Audi+FIS+World+Cup+Women+GS+Slovenia

 

http://www.theskichannel.com/news/featured/20121125/nature-valley-aspen-winternational-womens-giant-slalom/

 

 

 

 

 

Skiing has moved on from "longer is better" about 20 years ago.

post #5 of 29
Thread Starter 

By physically bigger, I'm talking about 145 cm kids skiing 160s. The norm here seem to be +10-15 cm for GS skis for that age group.

About the WC skiers, don't know if you've noticed, but the skis they have at the podium is never the same as they use in the race. I've even seen skiers holding GS skis after a SL race at the podium.


Edited by Karlsson - 3/15/13 at 3:35am
post #6 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlsson View Post

Don't know if you've noticed, but the skis they have at the podium is never the same as they use in the race. I've even seen them holding a GS ski after a SL race. The GS length is fixed for women by FIS at 188 cm.
 


Fair enough...it was 180 in 2011/2012, Vonn is about 180cm tall.  I havent coached at the WC level since 2001 (and for clarity I never coached Vonn) so I am abit out of date.  But I stand by my reccomendation...160cm for a 141cm 33kg child, is too long.  152 is also likely too long.

 

 

 

http://alpine.usskiteam.com/sites/default/files/documents/athletics/compservices/2011-12/documents/2012AlpineEquipmentChart.pdf

 

 

I should add...my intent of using LV, was not to suggest a 10 year old, should follow her...but to point out, that even the best female ski racer on the planet doesnt run skis 20cm/13% over her head height for GS.....for LV that would be 203 (13%).

 

Ligety - 180cm tall on 195s. (8% over head height)

So at 141 that is a 152 to be equivalent.  And lets not forget that the move to 195 for WC was highly controvestaill!


Edited by Skidude72 - 3/15/13 at 4:02am
post #7 of 29

Couple comments.

 

Are you sure you aren't applying male ski length suggestions to a female?

 

Did you use the "Ski Selector" at the Elan site?

 

I did and maxed everything out for your daughter; race, expert and very fast.  I then put her down for 145cm to account for growth.  The manufacturer recommends a 144 in the ski you are looking at.

 

 

You asked for advice and received expert advice from skidude.  The manufacturer recommends going shorter even if she grows 4 cm.  In order to get to the 152 cm on the ski selector, she'll need to meet the above criteria (race, expert and very fast) and be 150cm tall.  She's only been race training for one season.  Putting her on a ski that is too long can hold her back.  The ideal ski for her should be based on more than her height, a good deal and what the other kids are on.

 

If the deal on the skis is that great, buy them and put them away for a year or two until she's bigger.  The skis she has now probably are too short for her but jumping from a 130 to a 152 (22cm) is pretty steep, especially for a ten y/o.

 

Also applied all the above criteria but selected "boy" at 145cm and the same recommendation came up.

 

I would error towards too short over too long.  Now is about building technique and skills.

 

JMO,

Ken

post #8 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

I should add...my intent of using LV, was not to suggest a 10 year old, should follow her...but to point out, that even the best female ski racer on the planet doesnt run skis 20cm/13% over her head height for GS.....for LV that would be 203 (13%).

 

 

Not yet anyway!

post #9 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post


Fair enough...it was 180 in 2011/2012, Vonn is about 180cm tall.  I havent coached at the WC level since 2001 (and for clarity I never coached Vonn) so I am abit out of date.  But I stand by my reccomendation...160cm for a 141cm 33kg child, is too long.  152 is also likely too long.

 

 

 

http://alpine.usskiteam.com/sites/default/files/documents/athletics/compservices/2011-12/documents/2012AlpineEquipmentChart.pdf

 

 

I should add...my intent of using LV, was not to suggest a 10 year old, should follow her...but to point out, that even the best female ski racer on the planet doesnt run skis 20cm/13% over her head height for GS.....for LV that would be 203 (13%).

 

Ligety - 180cm tall on 195s. (8% over head height)

So at 141 that is a 152 to be equivalent.  And lets not forget that the move to 195 for WC was highly controvestaill!


She's 141 now, and these skis are ment for next season--she will be a little bigger. I appreciate the advice but I know that 152 won't be too long. She tried a pair of 156 Völkl's this week, and they were a tad too much ski right now, but she did very ok on them. So I'm not worried about the 152 Elans being too much ski next season.

post #10 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlsson View Post


She's 141 now, and these skis are ment for next season--she will be a little bigger. I appreciate the advice but I know that 152 won't be too long. She tried a pair of 156 Völkl's this week, and they were a tad too much ski right now, but she did very ok on them. So I'm not worried about the 152 Elans being too much ski next season.


Perfect, then go the 152s.  I appreciate what you say about childrens growth is never certain...and she could be 165 and 50kg by next year...but....she could also not be.  I also acknowledge you know your daughter better then any of us also....but, on the face of it, based on the facts of weight and height and you provided...even with a few cms growth and the subsequent extra kgs...160 is a no goer.  152.

post #11 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

Couple comments.

 

Are you sure you aren't applying male ski length suggestions to a female?

 

Did you use the "Ski Selector" at the Elan site?

 

I did and maxed everything out for your daughter; race, expert and very fast.  I then put her down for 145cm to account for growth.  The manufacturer recommends a 144 in the ski you are looking at.

 

 

You asked for advice and received expert advice from skidude.  The manufacturer recommends going shorter even if she grows 4 cm.  In order to get to the 152 cm on the ski selector, she'll need to meet the above criteria (race, expert and very fast) and be 150cm tall.  She's only been race training for one season.  Putting her on a ski that is too long can hold her back.  The ideal ski for her should be based on more than her height, a good deal and what the other kids are on.

 

If the deal on the skis is that great, buy them and put them away for a year or two until she's bigger.  The skis she has now probably are too short for her but jumping from a 130 to a 152 (22cm) is pretty steep, especially for a ten y/o.

 

Also applied all the above criteria but selected "boy" at 145cm and the same recommendation came up.

 

I would error towards too short over too long.  Now is about building technique and skills.

 

JMO,

Ken


No, I didn't use the Elan ski selector. She's been on a 130cm SL-ski for all practice this season (SL, GS, & SG) and the plan is to add GS-skis for next season. Perhaps move to 135 in SL depending on how much she grows. As I said, I'm not worried that the 152 will be too long for her, the 160 might though.

post #12 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post


Perfect, then go the 152s.  I appreciate what you say about childrens growth is never certain...and she could be 165 and 50kg by next year...but....she could also not be.  I also acknowledge you know your daughter better then any of us also....but, on the face of it, based on the facts of weight and height and you provided...even with a few cms growth and the subsequent extra kgs...160 is a no goer.  152.


Lets hope she doesn't grow that much :)

post #13 of 29

My .02 and a question...

 

What kind of courses is she training/racing on?  Steep and Icy?  If so the longer skis might be ok if she is very strong.  If they train on milder terrain, them she may not be able to arc the ski sufficiently to make the correct movements.

 

In my experience, it is less important for kids this age to have the "fastest" appropriate ski and more important for them to be on boards they can REALLY carve and bend.  What you are developing at this age is confidence in the ability to drop the hip into the hill and make quick edge to edge transitions.

 

I have seen kids on skis they "can grow into" have their confidence seriously eroded and development of bad "park and ride" habits.

 

IMO, put her on skis she can really roll on edge and get the FEEL for a pure carve and short enough that she can make quick correction to maintain line.  :)

post #14 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pat View Post

My .02 and a question...

 

What kind of courses is she training/racing on?  Steep and Icy?  If so the longer skis might be ok if she is very strong.  If they train on milder terrain, them she may not be able to arc the ski sufficiently to make the correct movements.

 

In my experience, it is less important for kids this age to have the "fastest" appropriate ski and more important for them to be on boards they can REALLY carve and bend.  What you are developing at this age is confidence in the ability to drop the hip into the hill and make quick edge to edge transitions.

 

I have seen kids on skis they "can grow into" have their confidence seriously eroded and development of bad "park and ride" habits.

 

IMO, put her on skis she can really roll on edge and get the FEEL for a pure carve and short enough that she can make quick correction to maintain line.  :)

 



It's usually pretty icy after a few runs, and moderately steep (what the heck does that mean?). She did very ok on a borrowed pair of GS Völkl 156's earlier this week. They were perhaps a little too much at this point, but I suspect with 1-2 extra cm:s and kg:s, they would be just right. I believe the Elan RGC:s (speculation from my side) are a little easier going. That's why I figured 152:s might be on the shorter side for next season. Thanks for the input. I'll stay away from the 160's and go with the 152's if I decide to jump on this offer. Or wait (and see how much she grows over summer) and get a used pair in the fall.

post #15 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

 

But she isnt physically bigger.....even Lindsey Vonn's GS skis are roughly to a little over head height. 

 

Have a look:

 

http://www.zimbio.com/Lindsey+Vonn/articles/vMYem-YLbnP/Lindsey+Vonn+Audi+FIS+World+Cup+Women+GS+Slovenia

 

http://www.theskichannel.com/news/featured/20121125/nature-valley-aspen-winternational-womens-giant-slalom/

 

 

 

 

 

Skiing has moved on from "longer is better" about 20 years ago.


FYI,

 

The skis the held on a World Cup podium are not what they race on. They swap out the race stocks for production skis, usually cheater GS, for the photos. A version of the car racing "What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday" marketing. Lindsey races GS on a minumum 188 cm ski, and she has even been known to race on mens length if it is a fast, open course.

 

As far as the OP daughter, it is hard to say without seeing her ski, and how her coaches set the course. I've seen some 12-13 year old boys shred a GS course on 170 cm GS skis, while other less skilled (but physically bigger) 12 year olds have trouble on a 155 cm ski in the same course.

 

I would also add that the "longer straighter" FIS mentality for GS is more than likely here to stay. We will probably see the increased length and reduced radius rules moved down to the U16 and U14 groups in the next year or two, so many of these kids will be forced to ski longer lengths no matter what.


Edited by CaptainKirk - 3/18/13 at 3:43pm
post #16 of 29
Thread Starter 

Yeah, it's never the same skis. I've even seen athletes holding GS skis after a SL race! Almost seems like the lengts of podium-skis are adjusted for optimal camera framing.

 

She'll be U12 next season as well and I had sort of decided to wait, but I went ahead and ordered the 152's this morning. She did a really nasty crash in GS practice last night on her 130 cm RCX:s, because she has become way too fast in that type of course for those skis. She bounced for 15-20 meters and was then caught by the net--luckily just a few bruises. I just can't let her ski a GS or SG course again w/o a proper speed ski. The RCX:s, as pleasant as they are, will be SL only from now on.

 

Her coach reccomended +10-15 cm for her (that seams to be the norm for her group here). The RCG:s will most probably be +10-11 when they start the next season and then if she grows more than 3-4 cm during Nov-Feb, I'll just have to get her a new pair.

 

Cheers
 

post #17 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainKirk View Post


FYI,

 

The skis the held on a World Cup podium are not what they race on. They swap out the race stocks for production skis, usually cheater GS, for the photos. A version of the car racing "What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday" marketing. Lindsey races GS on a minumum 188 cm ski, and she has even been known to race on mens length if it is a fast, open course.

 

As far as the OP daughter, it is hard to say without seeing her ski, and how her coaches set the course. I've seen some 12-13 year old boys shred a GS course on 170 cm GS skis, while other less skilled (but physically bigger) 12 year olds have trouble on a 155 cm ski in the same course.

 

I would also add that the "longer straighter" FIS mentality for GS is more than likely here to stay. We will probably see the increased length and reduced radius rules moved down to the U16 and U14 groups in the next year or two, so many of these kids will be forced to ski longer lengths no matter what.

 

 

I am not sure about USSA rules, but there are really no mandated lengths and sidecuts below FIS, or at least none that are enforced.

 

To the OP - be very careful about putting your child in too much ski and too much boot to let them grow into them by the second half of the season. By the time they get to the right size/strength to use them, they will have struggle and not developed to the point where it can be used properly. My personal opinion is 160 is over the top for a 10 year old considering most U14s who have started their growth spurts usually run 170-175 GS skis.

post #18 of 29
Get the 160. She will struggle all season and possibly the next, but maybe learn more that way and you'd be more relaxed? Or do what i did and buy all lenghts and radiuses in 5cm increments between 151 and 183 wink.gif you can find great used skis...

Anyways, remember that a short GS ski is very useful in ski-cross, even powder etc. the only difference is the difficulty in swingin the longer ski and it's greater stability at high speed. How fast will she go?
post #19 of 29

Oops - forgot one property of the longer skis: they put more torque on the knee/lower leg in case of a fall.

post #20 of 29

Get the 160. She will struggle all season and possibly the next, but maybe learn more that way and you'd be more relaxed?

 

Ooo Ouch.  Gotta disagree.  2 seasons of frustration and bad habits?  Eroded confidence?  I would rather see an 11 yo making beautifully shaped turns with big angles and aggressive body position than the same 11yo wrestling with equipment that may or may not shave .2 seconds in a drag race.  

 

IMO no 10 yo girl is capable of generating speeds and power to make even a 140cm "unsafe" 

 

Do you have any video of your lil gal?

post #21 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pat View Post

Get the 160. She will struggle all season and possibly the next, but maybe learn more that way and you'd be more relaxed?

 

Ooo Ouch.  Gotta disagree.  2 seasons of frustration and bad habits?  Eroded confidence?  I would rather see an 11 yo making beautifully shaped turns with big angles and aggressive body position than the same 11yo wrestling with equipment that may or may not shave .2 seconds in a drag race.  

 

IMO no 10 yo girl is capable of generating speeds and power to make even a 140cm "unsafe" 

 

Do you have any video of your lil gal?


I think he was being ironic? Anyways the dice is already rolled and I got her the 152's. I think they will serve her well next season as GS and SG-skis, we're not chasing time fragments--allthough she might disagree with me on that. She wants to be faster than her friends.

She's taken quite a leap during the last month and her 130 cm RCX:s are defienetely getting a little too short in the GS courses. Great for SL though. We'll start the next season on them for SL but I suspect 135 will be more correct then.

I don't have any good footage. Only a clip of her free skiing from a couple of months ago, which probably doesn't say much, because she's not really pushing it, and a lot of things has also fallen into place during the last month (the learning curve of kids are just jaw dropping).

 

post #22 of 29

Nice looking lil ripper there.  As you say not really going for it but...

 

Back seat.  Narrow stance.  Preeeetty decent upper lower body separation.  I would like to see her open up that stance and work on long leg short leg. 

 

Yes the curve is mind blowing but is mostly about CONFIDENCE.  I coach U14s currently and this is a great age as they are really starting to get athletic and competitive.  I think 10-u14 are the most fun and formative years for young racers.  You are in for a fine ride.   :)

post #23 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pat View Post

Nice looking lil ripper there.  As you say not really going for it but...

 

Back seat.  Narrow stance.  Preeeetty decent upper lower body separation.  I would like to see her open up that stance and work on long leg short leg. 

 

Yes the curve is mind blowing but is mostly about CONFIDENCE.  I coach U14s currently and this is a great age as they are really starting to get athletic and competitive.  I think 10-u14 are the most fun and formative years for young racers.  You are in for a fine ride.   :)


Internet coaching :)

 

She's been through 12-14 hours of racing practice since that clip was shot in mid Feb--and has developed quite a bit.

post #24 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlsson View Post


Internet coaching :)

 

She's been through 12-14 hours of racing practice since that clip was shot in mid Feb--and has developed quite a bit.

 

 

Yeah but you put it out there to make your point, so of course people are going to comment.

 

I agree with Pat, and that 10yr olds can't really "work" the skis and generate speed out of of every turn the way older, more developed athletes can. They can tip them over but generally ride them through the turn. Hell, a lot of U14s, 16s, and 18s struggle with it. It's an advanced a skill so I feel that most kids that age aren't going to really overpower a ski. Overestimating your child's ability is very common, and I am as guilty of it as anyone, and wanting to put them into more advanced <whatever>, as is trying to save a buck or two.

post #25 of 29

Yes - sorry, was being a bit of an a$$ about the 160s, but I know that, as a parent, those thoughts were on my mind at the time...

 

Don't sweat 5cm, like between 130 to 135 - wait until she's able to move to a 140 or 145, whatever you find. Also - don't get stuck with the length: the flex pattern and the way it bends are probably more important. I got my 10 yr old on a 130 cm SL hand-me-down that he can't bend yet - the length is fine, but he just can't bend the thing into a short turn. He is ripping on his 151 GS skis though - so there you have it.

 

As an example, I got a 171cm/20m D2 GS ski for myself and a 165/18 strait GS for my son, thinking that it's too much to move him from a 151 to a 171.... but my 12 year old absolutely dominates on my ski, with the angles he's getting, so I ended up getting another 171/20m... so we have one each. Now he has the 165 as a training ski at the beginning of the season, shorter GS for fluff or ski-cross...

 

I have the luxury of having a 12 yr old and a 10 yr old and i don't have a big issue buying lots of sizes, I know I'll get 3-4 seasons out of them. Still, I initially kept buying second hand stuff, if you can get over the perception hurdle, I would recommend that you sample more equipment that way: buy used, see how it works and sell it if it doesn't. Now I can sometimes find great deals, where a new ski costs a little more than a used ski, so I go for new, whenever I find those deals.

 

Also, long term: take this to heart: race results are irrelevant before say 14-15 years old. If she is not on the podium, they don't even make her feel great. Focus on the training... that's what matters.

 

cheers,

Razie

post #26 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlsson View Post


I think he was being ironic? Anyways the dice is already rolled and I got her the 152's. I think they will serve her well next season as GS and SG-skis, we're not chasing time fragments--allthough she might disagree with me on that. She wants to be faster than her friends.

She's taken quite a leap during the last month and her 130 cm RCX:s are defienetely getting a little too short in the GS courses. Great for SL though. We'll start the next season on them for SL but I suspect 135 will be more correct then.

I don't have any good footage. Only a clip of her free skiing from a couple of months ago, which probably doesn't say much, because she's not really pushing it, and a lot of things has also fallen into place during the last month (the learning curve of kids are just jaw dropping).

 

 

SG at 11?
post #27 of 29
Thread Starter 
Actually they've had at couple of SG sessions already this season, at 10, and one race. My girl didn't participate in the race though.
post #28 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlsson View Post

Actually they've had at couple of SG sessions already this season, at 10, and one race. My girl didn't participate in the race though.


Are you in Sweden... just guessing based on the surname. Sounds like your setup is pretty similar to Norway. My boy is 11 (U12 class for now). Raced SG at Ål last year and two weeks ago. Off to Kvitfjell in two weeks for SG/Super Combined. Currently skiing Elan FX 181cm (jr. SG skis).

 

So yep, Atomicman, SG at 11. On courses that really do need long, stable, big radius skis.

post #29 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squawker View Post


Are you in Sweden... just guessing based on the surname. Sounds like your setup is pretty similar to Norway. My boy is 11 (U12 class for now). Raced SG at Ål last year and two weeks ago. Off to Kvitfjell in two weeks for SG/Super Combined. Currently skiing Elan FX 181cm (jr. SG skis).

 

So yep, Atomicman, SG at 11. On courses that really do need long, stable, big radius skis.


Yes. We're in Sweden. Was hoping to get over to Norway (Trysil) Easter weekend when we're out west, but I couldn't find any lodging.

 

Lycka till i Kvitfjell!

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