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K2 rictor base and edge bevel angles - Page 2

post #31 of 56

Asked them what they meant by the "We recommend lightly detuning them from about 2 inches toward the binding of the contact point all the way to the tip and tail of the ski. "

 

K2 replied as follows.

 

Quote:
Basically if you were to put the ski on a table or other flat surface
with the brake pulled up off of the surface (like it would be if your
boot was clicked in) you will see the front and rear contact point of
the ski on the table.  You would just want to detune from that spot to
the tip of the ski and then get just a little bit extra going toward the
binding.  Basically that will just make the ski feel a little more
maneuverable and easier to get from edge to edge.  Hopefully that makes
sense, but let me know if you have any other questions.
post #32 of 56

Yep, they all say that. That's becasue 99% of the skiers don't know how to ski properly.

 

If your skis are detuned now, next time to tune them, sharpen then tip to tail. If you do like some of us, you will remove a samll amount of the de-tune each time you touch the skis up after a day of skiing. Over a few days you will have learned how to ski the sharp ski and not have any issue with it.

 

I can see if you removed the detune all at once, it might come as a shock to your system.

 

Even when I bought my Kendo's they were detuned, it took about four or five days to get it all out. I could feel they were a bit slow to engage when they were new.

 

Once you learn that you can ski a fully tuned ski and that when you think turn the with the slightest toe pressure the skis begin to turn, you'll never go back.

 

Oh, BTW, how do your boot's fit ? When I stand in mine I can feel the liner slightly pressing on my toes, when I hang my feet off the chair, I can feel the entire foot bed under my feet. BTW my boots are 5 or 6 years old,. I do not have to unbuckle when in the lift line.

 

You may want to find a great boot fitter.

post #33 of 56
Thread Starter 
Thanks for that, I think I will follow max and tune them from tip to tail
post #34 of 56

AS long as the tune is done properly, no burr and an accurate 1 degree, you will love it!

 

Plus that ski has early rise tip, so the normal contact point is farther back on the ski until you get high enough edge angles for the widest part of the tip to hook-up.

 

When you lay the ski up on edge, you don't want the contact point closer to the tip dull. AS Max said, that will really detract from the skis performance.

 

But you also must be sure that the tip and tail areas have a nice clean 1 degree on them .

 

Max is right on the money!

 

A 1 degree base is by no means demanding. And no one makes a professional grade 1.5 side edge beveller.

post #35 of 56

Thanks Atomicman, I should add, it helps for the pilot to be centered on his feet and upper body forward.

 

Pressure the tongues of the boots, driving the tips of the skis.

 

For those new to this concept, I heard a race coach the other day tell the kids, stand on your toes. Good advice to help you understand getting forward.

 

I hope you guy's can follow this, I'm getting excited talking about it, looking forward to getting back on skis tomorrow morning. It's been 5 days since the last ski day...

post #36 of 56
Is there a particular technique for tuning the tips and tails? I find that at the ends of the skis the guide does not lay flat on the ski and it is difficult to maintain a constant bevel. The stone/edge contact feels very scratchy at the ski's extremities.
post #37 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post

Yep, they all say that. That's becasue 99% of the skiers don't know how to ski properly.

I'm pretty sure I'm not in the top 1% of skiers so I guess I'm not skiing properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post

Oh, BTW, how do your boot's fit ? When I stand in mine I can feel the liner slightly pressing on my toes, when I hang my feet off the chair, I can feel the entire foot bed under my feet. BTW my boots are 5 or 6 years old,. I do not have to unbuckle when in the lift line. You may want to find a great boot fitter.

Great. I've been using SureFoot for last 6 years and have very comfortable boots. Never have to unbuckle. I think the liner in my current pair is starting to pack it in so next year new boots and liners. Current boots are 80 flex, going to move up to 100.

I'll be going back to SureFoot.
post #38 of 56

Eagles, don't be offended, it took me a long time to get where I am. There are many pieces to the puzzle that all have to be in place. Believe me I'm not perfect, but I'm always thinking about where my low body parts are and what they are doing, as well as upper body seperation and hand position. I've help a couple of friends get there PSIA level III, so we have had lots of talk about how to do this.

 

ADKS, you need to use something like the ski visions base flattener to get the bases pretty flat tip tail.

 

Then walk into sharpenineg the tip and tail

post #39 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADKS View Post

Is there a particular technique for tuning the tips and tails? I find that at the ends of the skis the guide does not lay flat on the ski and it is difficult to maintain a constant bevel. The stone/edge contact feels very scratchy at the ski's extremities.

When we say tip to tail it really means contact point to contact point.

 

Just do the best you can in those areas and you can get the guide to somewhat follow the curvature of the ski in the tip. But I do use a hard gummi and slightly dull in front of in the tip and behind in the tail, the contact points.

post #40 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post

Eagles, don't be offended, it took me a long time to get where I am. There are many pieces to the puzzle that all have to be in place. Believe me I'm not perfect, but I'm always thinking about where my low body parts are and what they are doing, as well as upper body seperation and hand position. I've help a couple of friends get there PSIA level III, so we have had lots of talk about how to do this.

 

Not offended but it does provide a perspective that the advice given here is sometimes not applicable to 99% of skiers.  Some of the people I ski with are FIS rated top 1000 in the world, the top 0.00017%.  I have to "detune" their advice also.  All good information.  Skiing with them this year in PC on my K2's, not holding them up and they noticed I was skiing better and I feel like I moved up a notch or two this year with my skiing progress.  Only difference was the new K2's...just able to ski better on them.

 

I'm probably good with K2's tuning specs.  Probably what skis had before the bad tune.

post #41 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

Not offended but it does provide a perspective that the advice given here is sometimes not applicable to 99% of skiers.  Some of the people I ski with are FIS rated top 1000 in the world, the top 0.00017%.  I have to "detune" their advice also.  All good information.  Skiing with them this year in PC on my K2's, not holding them up and they noticed I was skiing better and I feel like I moved up a notch or two this year with my skiing progress.  Only difference was the new K2's...just able to ski better on them.

 

I'm probably good with K2's tuning specs.  Probably what skis had before the bad tune.

You are over thinking the side edge bevel.

 

Base bevel is the heart and sole of how demanding  a ski will be. In other words, more base bevel = more latitude before your edge engages. A clean 1 degree is the Gold standard. More than that and you must get inside your turn a lot farther to get the ski up on edge. The less base bevel, they get to edge extremely quickly with very little latitude for sliding or skidding.

 

Start with no detuning. It is easy to slightly dull the edges a from contact point towards the binding if you realy find you need it. But a 1 degree done properly is not going to be an issue. Your FIS folks are on a 0, .5 or .7 and/or a one depending on discipline (1 would be Super G & Downhill)

 

 

The 3 degree side edge bevel only comes into play once your ski is on edge and gives superior edge hold on hard snow. This is very confidence inspiring and afterall isn't it all about the mental game and confidence.

 

 

Since your ski has early rise tip anyway, the tip is not in contact with the snow until you get on a high enough edge angle to engage the tip. Again a 1 degree is not in anyway considered aggressive and should need no detuning regardless of you ability. I would never detune anyway. If the felt to reactive in the tip I would add slightly more base bevel from the contact point maybe a couple of inches towrd the binding.

post #42 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

 

The 3 degree side edge bevel only comes into play once your ski is on edge and gives superior edge hold on hard snow. This is very confidence inspiring and afterall isn't it all about the mental game and confidence.

 

It's also about getting the skis around to give you the confidence and the mental edge.   Practice, practice, practice and good equipment is what has worked for me to get better at skiing and gain confidence.

 

In this case, whatever the shop did to the skis had a real physical, not mental, effect on getting the skis around.

 

Hopefully the shop tuned the skis to the specs you provided (thanks) and I'll notice a difference. If those specs prove a bit aggressive for me, I've got specs and advice from K2 ("Basically that will just make the ski feel a little more maneuverable and easier to get from edge to edge") to step it down a notch.

post #43 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

It's also about getting the skis around to give you the confidence and the mental edge.   Practice, practice, practice and good equipment is what has worked for me to get better at skiing and gain confidence.

 

In this case, whatever the shop did to the skis had a real physical, not mental, effect on getting the skis around.

 

Hopefully the shop tuned the skis to the specs you provided (thanks) and I'll notice a difference. If those specs prove a bit aggressive for me, I've got specs and advice from K2 ("Basically that will just make the ski feel a little more maneuverable and easier to get from edge to edge") to step it down a notch.

But if your skis are performing properly and predictably it gives you the confidence necessary to ski effortlessly. You think and the skis do!

 

An analogy would be if your were always worrying about your bindings releasing when they should not. you would ski tentatively not effortlessly.

post #44 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

You are over thinking the side edge bevel.

 

Base bevel is the heart and sole of how demanding  a ski will be. In other words, more base bevel = more latitude before your edge engages. A clean 1 degree is the Gold standard. More than that and you must get inside your turn a lot farther to get the ski up on edge. The less base bevel, they get to edge extremely quickly with very little latitude for sliding or skidding.

 

Start with no detuning. It is easy to slightly dull the edges a from contact point towards the binding if you realy find you need it. But a 1 degree done properly is not going to be an issue. Your FIS folks are on a 0, .5 or .7 and/or a one depending on discipline (1 would be Super G & Downhill)

 

 

The 3 degree side edge bevel only comes into play once your ski is on edge and gives superior edge hold on hard snow. This is very confidence inspiring and afterall isn't it all about the mental game and confidence.

 

 

Since your ski has early rise tip anyway, the tip is not in contact with the snow until you get on a high enough edge angle to engage the tip. Again a 1 degree is not in anyway considered aggressive and should need no detuning regardless of you ability. I would never detune anyway. If the felt to reactive in the tip I would add slightly more base bevel from the contact point maybe a couple of inches towrd the binding.

   What A-man said!!!  beercheer.gif

 

   zenny

post #45 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

But if your skis are performing properly and predictably it gives you the confidence necessary to ski effortlessly. You think and the skis do!

 

Your FIS folks are on a 0, .5 or .7 and/or a one depending on discipline (1 would be Super G & Downhill)

 

Exactly.  Not just a mental game, the equipment has to be set up right.

 

Just picked the skis up, no charge for the "fix".   Looks like we'll get 5-9 inches tonight so I'll test them out tomorrow.

 

Have no idea how the FIS kids have their skis set.  They are out of racing now, mostly skiing fat skis in UT powder and back country stuff.  Their Revelstoke trip.

 


Edited by Eagles Pdx - 3/16/13 at 6:08pm
post #46 of 56
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

  

Looks like we'll get 5-9 inches tonight so I'll test them out tomorrow.

 

 

We got the 9" but we got 50 mph wind and just two lifts open so I won't know about the ski tune until Whistler end of the week.

post #47 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

We got the 9" but we got 50 mph wind and just two lifts open so I won't know about the ski tune until Whistler end of the week.

And it is only going to ultra apparent on groomers!

post #48 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

And it is only going to ultra apparent on groomers!


Whoa.  It was off piste that they were misbehaving after the first tune.  Groomers were fine or at least no noticeable difference.  Now you have me wondering.  Up to Whistler Friday so we'll see how they do.

post #49 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post


Whoa.  It was off piste that they were misbehaving after the first tune.  Groomers were fine or at least no noticeable difference.  Now you have me wondering.  Up to Whistler Friday so we'll see how they do.

      Hi there Eagles..I'm new to this thread, so bear with me...What type of off piste conditions were they misbehaving in after your tune? There are many: Soft bumps, hard/icy bumps, "blower" pow, heavy pow, windblown, etc...trees?? Were they different conditions (typically) than BEFORE your tune?

 

   zentune

post #50 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

      Hi there Eagles..I'm new to this thread, so bear with me...What type of off piste conditions were they misbehaving in after your tune? There are many: Soft bumps, hard/icy bumps, "blower" pow, heavy pow, windblown, etc...trees?? Were they different conditions (typically) than BEFORE your tune?

 

   zentune


It was post dump NW liquid cement off piste steeps with icy underbelly.   It was truly normal ski conditions for us and the skis were acting like they had a mind of their own after the tune. Usual conditions but AtomicMan's comments make me wonder if I was just out of practice and getting beat up by deep, heavy chopped up snow vs. the tune.

 

Whistler will tell all.

post #51 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post


 Usual conditions but AtomicMan's comments make me wonder if I was just out of practice and getting beat up by deep, heavy chopped up snow vs. the tune.

 

Whistler will tell all.

   If ya dont mind me sayin', that's what I was thinking. BTW, I'm ski in the outer rim of the PNW...those ARE normal conditions!!  beercheer.gif

 

   zenny

post #52 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post


It was post dump NW liquid cement off piste steeps with icy underbelly.   It was truly normal ski conditions for us and the skis were acting like they had a mind of their own after the tune. Usual conditions but AtomicMan's comments make me wonder if I was just out of practice and getting beat up by deep, heavy chopped up snow vs. the tune.

 

Whistler will tell all.

AS you know I am her in the great PNW too! The inconsistent off piste with icy  underneath could be difficult with a funky tune (mostly the ice underneath). , but you would really notice it on groomers.

 

In soft snow of most flavors it is not going to be much of an issue. although a nasty hanging burr can play some havoc, usually not in soft chop or untracked conditions, unless like you say it has a hard icy base you get down to.

 

If the groomers were icy and hard, you should have  been miserable on them with a messed up tune.

post #53 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

In soft snow of most flavors it is not going to be much of an issue. although a nasty hanging burr can play some havoc, usually not in soft chop or untracked conditions, unless like you say it has a hard icy base you get down to.

If the groomers were icy and hard, you should have  been miserable on them with a messed up tune.

First day on the new tune at Whistler. Fine off piste. The groomers down low where it thawed and froze were icy and hard, skis were fine there, worth my life to get an edge but that was me vs. the ice not the skis. Up higher, packed powder and they skis were fine.
post #54 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post


First day on the new tune at Whistler. Fine off piste. The groomers down low where it thawed and froze were icy and hard, skis were fine there, worth my life to get an edge but that was me vs. the ice not the skis. Up higher, packed powder and they skis were fine.

 

Bravo! Lucky Bastard! I love Whistler! But I had a hell of day at Crystal today!
post #55 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

 

Bravo!Lucky Bastard! I love Whistler!But I had a hell of day at Crystal today!

Whistler is so huge...forget everytime until I ski it...I like the international atmosphere..French, Japanese, Chinese chatter...and the near 100% Ozzie work force.  Park the car and forget it.

 

Did I mention how big the mountain is?

post #56 of 56

Glad to hear you got the skis fixed.

 

I also enjoyed Whistler/Blackcomb the week we were there.

 

Your lucky to get to ski there.

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