I think most of that was between me and bsather, and I apologize for my part in that. Other than that I think it was a level headed discussion that was pretty useful.
If someone is serious about understanding this, I suggest to read the following which is from another thread (It is a discussion between me and another poster, slightly modified for clarity):
Regarding the title of this thread I don't really like to put number on things. I might end a turn with 100% on my inside, e.g. OLR or ILE, or I might end the turn with 100% on the outside (dynamic SL turn with weighted release). They are both fine. Similarly I might initiate the turn with 100% on my inside because I needed to make a balance adjustment due to the previous release.
OLR with 100% on your inside means you already initiate the new turn at that point - same as the third option?
Is the weighted release just like OLR but with the old inside ski lifted?
Only if the CoM does not go up. If you unweight by "vaulting" the CoM will go up and you will we weightless for a while, when the weight comes back it doesn't need to be the same leg.
The weight distribution is much more important to view in the time domain IMO. Bear with me...
When an edge is engaged in the snow you can divide the force that the edge affects the snow with in two major components.
1. The force component that is tangent to the snow surface. This force is given by the instantaneous turn radius. If you are going straight (or free-fall "straight”) this component does not exist. If you are doing tight SL turns at WC speeds this force is huge. It is proportional to the square of the speed and inversely proportional to the turn radius. This can also be called the centripetal force.
2. The force component perpendicular to the slope. The time average of this component is given by the steepness of the slope and the weight of the skier. If the slope is flat the average is proportional to the weight
Very nice decomposition of the components for visualization
Now you may have noticed that I used the term "average". The interesting thing about the second component is how it is distributed in time throughout a turn. In a static "park and ride" turn the size of this force is quite constant and proportional to your weight x cosine(slope angle).
On the other side of the spectrum we have a highly dynamic turn, like a WC SL racer that flies through the transition with very little pressure on the skis and has a short by very intense engagement of the edges. Say for example and simplicity that he has no noticable pressure for 2/3 of the turn and that he has a high but constant pressure during 1/3 of the turn. This means that the second force component will be proportional to 3 x weight x cosine(slope angle) during this 1/3 of the turn.
Typically where in the turn does a racer use high and low pressure using the clock face as reference? I understand why you use time, but it is much easier for me while skiing to think spatially rather than temporally.
I am guessing from videos that to a large extent, the pressure at the top (12 o'clock) and bottom (6) are lowest on the skis and highest at the apex. Therefore weight distribution at these points doesn't affect the turn shape or dynamic much? But as pressure develops toward the apex, it becomes critical and racers by and large have their weight very predominantly on the outside ski as Skidude72 and CTKook indicated? WC SL racers appear to spend no time at 12 at 6 o'clock.
Usually the max force will be somewhere after the fall line. You want it as early as possible to be fast, but that is very difficult.
Now if we consider the following facts:
-The steeper it becomes the less is the average of the second force component (due to the cosine(slope angle), if you don't know your trigonometrics you just have to trust me on this one)
-The steeper it becomes the faster we go if we carve
-The faster we go the higher the first force component will be due to higher speed and tighter radius
-The resultant force vector of the combination of the two force components compared to the edge angle is what largely determines if the edges hold or not.
Now this means that to hold an edge in the steeps you either have to increase the edge angle OR increase the second force component (off course the best is to do both).
Up to moderate speeds and steeps and on grippy surfaces it works pretty good to just increase the the edge angles, but pretty soon you will reach a limit, for example:
-in soft snow the resultant force is too much along the snow surface and the ski will break loose because of "shaving"
-On ice the ski can very easily break out and skid.
-If you are going very fast the edge angle is larger than what you can handle (read hip to the snow angles)
Yes, nice and clear
Now, it easy to realize that if the second force is larger the edge hold will be better. If we take the example with the WC racer above it is like making the force pushing the skis down into the snow three times larger.
I understand the first part but the only way I can think of to increase this second force component, and only possible for a brief moment, is to push or stomp on the ski. But doing so will likely upset balance or launch me somewhere I don't want to be by the same but opposite impulse from the snow surface to the ski which would defeat the purpose of increasing edge hold. If you consider the skier as a point object then all the dynamic of the turn parallel to the slope only affect the first force component. Changing the second would require dynamic perpendicular to the slope like pushing the COM up, dropping down, or retracting the legs - all of which are possible but only the first option increases ski pressure. Do racers push their COM up? Or is it indeed a NO NO as some people very strongly say?
Pushing is a big NO NO, although sometimes you cannot avoid it.
What you are missing is dynamics. As an example, imagine that you are going fast and you are highly inclinated, with you hip close to the ground i.e. the COM is far inside the turn. You are in a more or less balanced state. If you now angulate more, e.g. with feet/knee and hip, the radius will go down and you have disturbed the balance. The centripetal force from the edge will go below the CoM, and this will start a rotation which brings the CoM upwards. The only thing that can push the CoM upwards is a force acting on the ski, because there are no other upward external forces. The force must be larger than your weight otherwise it cannot push upwards. So, the ski is pushed down into the snow because of the upwards acceleration of the CoM.
The CoM will accelerate upwards also if you push into the turn, but then you have wasted the CoM acceleration early in the turn, and you will skid at the end of the turn if the conditions are tricky.
Another example, imagine that you are riding a bicycle at speed and someone puts a pump in your front wheel. You will fly up and forward. What force caused the upward movement?
So, the core of this is simply, that if you want your edges to hold under tricky circumstances you need to have more dynamics in your skiing,i.e. a short but intense edge engagement followed by a longer "float" with very little pressure.
Where and how? This is of much practical interest to me because I flail badly when the combo is steep, smooth and icy
See above. In practice some mental ques that are e.g. Flex intensely in transition. Delay edge engagement as long as possible by angulating.
There is a bit of strange thing here, delaying edge engagement gives you pressure in the high-C!
The difference here is whether you consider things spatially or temporally.
In the time domain, if you delay engagement, it means that the CoM is going "straighter" (ignoring free-fall) for a longer time. You are going in the same direction, and since you have delayed the engagement the edge angles will be higher which means that the forces will build higher and faster, and thus spatially you have more engagement in the high-C.
In racing this is exactly what you want, a straighter line with tighter turns and better grip.
If you instead maintain a constant level CoM you will engage early in the time domain, but you will not get any big forces in the spatial domain until much later.
When you see a racer that gets passive, this is often what has happened. You need the dynamics to be strong in order to be fast.
It is quite a common mistake to try to get early pressure by hurrying. That is partly why a common remedy is to have more patience. If you are doing things right it feels like you have all the time in the world, even if the turns are fast.
How you get the dynamics is a whole new subject, but some examples are:
-Old school push edge set where you push down on you edges short and abruptly with muscular effort to get a float into the next turn
-Modern SL turns where you float through transition, delay the edge set instead of pushing, set the edges by "landing" with more or less extended legs. Continue increased edge angles and counter until the vaulting effect starts to throw you upwards and into the next turn. Retract at exactly the right moment to get a float into the next turn.
-A longer GS turn where the float is longer so that the body is more upright in the middle of the transition, but there is still a float similarly to the SL turn (This is like Svindal in this thread)
A related subject is how the distribution of the second force component affects your speed, applicable both in mogul skiing and gate racing, but that is also another subject. It is relatively easy to learn how to hold an edge, but to do that and not loose you speed in the gates is what is really difficult.
I will be very happy for now just to hold an edge and not skid