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Why skiing tall isn't the answer - Page 5

post #121 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post


A frames are usually due to either alignement or (especially big ones) a too wide a stance. I think his stance is a little too wide, although st these extremes, is hard to judge it, for me. The skis are clearly not at the same angle, which they should and he's not displaced that much inside - he mived the inside ski "up" too early.

Looks like he's on an off-camber? In that case, it may be a one off and you can ignore the following...

As funny as it may sound, I would have him back-off these extreme angles for a while (he's booting out here) and just work on moving inside the turn properly, make sure his butt is well off that inside ski and that he is more patient with moving the inside ski up (or widen the stance). Then keeping his shins parallel / tipping both skis same amount would follow and then he can get back to these extremes.

(Edit)
on second thought, additionally, the extreme angle of the outside ski may be due to his upper body - he's bending forward at the hips too much - his upper body should be more upright. I would also like to see more counter / ca at this part of the turn.

All these conspire, but I would address the stance / inside ski first.

 

Personally, I'd be very careful about offering diagnosis from one frame... literally one fraction of a second of one run.... It's so hard to do, I'm going to re-post a picture below to prove my point. If you didn't know who the skier was, I'm sure there'd be plenty of diagnostic critique. Trouble is, this is but one fraction of a second of the second run of an alpine world championship gold metal effort.

 

 

post #122 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckT View Post

Thanks, Razie. How is the skiing up North at this time of the year? We will be in Montreal the first week of April, and I have half a mind to go check out Mont Tremblant.
We left a lot of snow and cold behind in jay peak, not far from Tremblant and found the same at home, around Toronto, so I would expect a longer season than usual...

The warning about diagnosing a single frame is true - it's up for you to judge which problem is re-occurring. Video is much better and also, corrections and their effect needs monitoring etc.

Cheers and good luck!

P.S. I started the same way, learning to ski to coach my own kids and now ended up almost a level 2 coach, may consider a level 3 attempt as soon as I pass this one, to learn even more smile.gif

P.S. jamt's physics above explain why angulation/cb matters: it helps to both increase the angle of the lower body and also it helps dig in the edges better, by increasing the force down. When you bend forward at the hips, in the direction of the skis, this is decreased and should require more angles at the snow - that's why I think that excessive breaking at the waist is responsible for the boot out, but there may obviously be other causes...
post #123 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post


 that's why I think that excessive breaking at the waist is responsible for the boot out, but there may obviously be other causes...

 

You need to watch some Ted Ligety. While the little guy was achieving a high edge angle, and yes, in that frame it appeared he was breaking at the waist, breaking at the waist has no connection to creating high edge angles. In fact, it usually precludes them in a continuous carve.  His high edge angles were generated by other means. Again, without 'time' on our side, we have no idea how he regularly skis transitions, but if were a coach, I'd be wildly please that a young skier can generate big edge angles in a carved turn. The rest of the tweaking, etc... would be highly 'doable'. Those edge angles are something many racers and most all rec skiers never learn how to do. 

post #124 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

 

You need to watch some Ted Ligety. While the little guy was achieving a high edge angle, and yes, in that frame it appeared he was breaking at the waist, breaking at the waist has no connection to creating high edge angles. In fact, it usually precludes them in a continuous carve.  His high edge angles were generated by other means. Again, without 'time' on our side, we have no idea how he regularly skis transitions, but if were a coach, I'd be wildly please that a young skier can generate big edge angles in a carved turn. The rest of the tweaking, etc... would be highly 'doable'. Those edge angles are something many racers and most all rec skiers never learn how to do. 

Disagree...

 

do a google search on ted ligety, click on 'images' and tell me in how many of those is he breaking at the hip as much as the kid.

 

it is  ok to bend forward a little towards the end of the turn, but I don't think that's where the kid is.

 

no, I don't think it is enough to get the big angles. without good technique he will soon become very limited in different terrain and situations. The problem is that "practice does not make perfect". Instead, "practice makes permanent". If he keeps skiing with bad technique, believing he's good, and while we step back as a happy coach, he will engrain those incorrect movement patterns.

 

look how hard it is to get my own son to give up his shuffling - he was instructed to shuffle for one entire year by a different coach and I didn't mess too much with it until now, happy that he looked good and got good results, and look how hard it is to change it now.

 

cheers,

Razie

 

P.S. I knew my opinion, to get him to back off for a while, correct his technique and only then let him come back to big angles would be a bit controversial, but I am certain it is the right approach.

 

(edit)

 

I generated some controversy by not letting my son even carve while trying to change his movement pattern :)

 

P.S. You are still right about it being one single photo, thus my diagnosis being likely wrong. It is emphasized in all coaching books that no correction should be attempted before identifying for sure the real cause of something... that requires observing from many points of view and over many repetitions.

 

P.S. I don't know if anyone else noticed, the one thing that really bothers me about that photo, is the knee angulation he needed to get those big angles without getting his hips low enough. That puts a lot of stress on the knee and I think should be avoided. Again - it could be a one off.

 

Here's (my son and I) getting big angles without that kind of stress - not too hard: http://www.racerkidz.com/wiki/Blog:Razie_Ski_Blog/Post:Ski_Drill_-_The_Penguin


Edited by razie - 3/18/13 at 6:10am
post #125 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

Disagree...

 

do a google search on ted ligety, click on 'images' and tell me in how many of those is he breaking at the hip as much as the kid.

 

it is  ok to bend forward a little towards the end of the turn, but I don't think that's where the kid is.

 

no, I don't think it is enough to get the big angles. without good technique he will soon become very limited in different terrain and situations. The problem is that "practice does not make perfect". Instead, "practice makes permanent". If he keeps skiing with bad technique, believing he's good, and while we step back as a happy coach, he will engrain those incorrect movement patterns.

 

look how hard it is to get my own son to give up his shuffling - he was instructed to shuffle for one entire year by a different coach and I didn't mess too much with it until now, happy that he looked good and got good results, and look how hard it is to change it now.

 

cheers,

Razie

 

P.S. I knew my opinion, to get him to back off for a while, correct his technique and only then let him come back to big angles would be a bit controversial, but I am certain it is the right approach.

 

(edit)

 

I generated some controversy by not letting my son even carve while trying to change his movement pattern :)

 

P.S. You are still right about it being one single photo, thus my diagnosis being likely wrong. It is emphasized in all coaching books that no correction should be attempted before identifying for sure the real cause of something... that requires observing from many points of view and over many repetitions.

 

P.S. I don't know if anyone else noticed, the one thing that really bothers me about that photo, is the knee angulation he needed to get those big angles without getting his hips low enough. That puts a lot of stress on the knee and I think should be avoided. Again - it could be a one off.

 

Here's (my son and I) getting big angles without that kind of stress - not too hard: http://www.racerkidz.com/wiki/Blog:Razie_Ski_Blog/Post:Ski_Drill_-_The_Penguin

 

 

I think there was a misunderstanding... I don't think breaking at the waist is good at all, but I do think it's very correctable. And yes, he is likely over edged which I did notice  that might say more about something doing on with boot/foot alignment than his skiing, but at 12, there's a lot going on growth wise, so it's a tough call, but again, something I wouldn't be comfortable making from one frame. In the end, the 'practice makes permanent'... I guess my whole thing, and this includes the risk that we only know the context of a little bit of video, is that there's perhaps too much practice. I still believe that if he had a friend or adult who's a technically sound skier to tear around with and a bit less directed skiing, he might make more progress. That's also why I think watching vid of WC racers and just plain old strong skiing is really helpful.. It's amazing what kids will take away from this and into their skiing. This is where you can really help him understand the 'what' and 'why' of what he's seeing, then have him focus on one thing to think about next time he's out... but it's spring time! Time for some soft bumps and fun! A couple of helicopters, etc... and believe me, some bump skiing will help his slalom. smile.gif I think I've said enough if not too much already. Please don't take any of this as a challenge or personal critique. It's not intended to be. In the end, I think a lot of focus on jr. racers across the board is too much technique and not nearly enough on what's going on mentally, i.e., thinking about skiing as just damn fun, finding 'flow', feeling connected to the hill, gaining confidence to go anywhere, and to have a broad set of experiences that will keep them fresh, confident, and interested for a lifetime.  Oh, and fun penguin vid!! I like! What happened at the end when he started flapping?


Edited by markojp - 3/18/13 at 7:46am
post #126 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

 

Oh, and fun penguin vid!! I like! What happened at the end when he started flapping?

He did start flapping, me too, didn't we :) No worries, I would rather have anything I say critiqued than ignored :) thanks.

 

I had my kids ski "old school", skidding with the feet locked together, last week, they loved it - showed it to their friends: "oh, look at me, I ski old school". I think too that they should experience all extremes, in order to develop as great skiers/racers.

 

cheers

post #127 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

He did start flapping, me too, didn't we :) No worries, I would rather have anything I say critiqued than ignored :) thanks.

 

I had my kids ski "old school", skidding with the feet locked together, last week, they loved it - showed it to their friends: "oh, look at me, I ski old school". I think too that they should experience all extremes, in order to develop as great skiers/racers.

 

cheers

 

Funny, you just reminded me of something we used to do when we where kids... Going down the hill looking completely out of control... flying through bumps appearing half a breath away from a total garage sale, out of control spins, skiing on the tails of of skis, accidental 'outrigger' turns, heading at obstacles only to miss them at the last moment, etc... If we did it well we'd have a lot of very concerned people yelling at us from the lift. I liked doing in some crummy old rain gear for full effect, kind of like a circus clown show... Looks 'terrible' but there's a ton of skill development and a lot of laughs.

post #128 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

He did start flapping, me too, didn't we :) No worries, I would rather have anything I say critiqued than ignored :) thanks.

 

I had my kids ski "old school", skidding with the feet locked together, last week, they loved it - showed it to their friends: "oh, look at me, I ski old school". I think too that they should experience all extremes, in order to develop as great skiers/racers.

 

cheers

 

Now do that with a 'modern' stance and with a rounded turn shape rather than the 'z' shape with the brakes on in the last part of the turn like in your hard snow vid... think constant, dynamic (lateral) pressure with the sensation of the center of mass directly between the feet. It'd make a nice simple progression making old things new again. Cool. Thanks for the thoughts!

post #129 of 130
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

I think most of that was between me and bsather, and I apologize for my part in that. Other than that I think it was a level headed discussion that was pretty useful.

 

? Wasn't referring to you at all Jamt. As far as I saw you weren't disparaging any instructors.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckT View Post

Metaphor_,

Would you share what you have got from the thread? I am an "uncertified instructor", an instructor of only one student, my son. 

 

What I got is that many instructors here who say "ski tall" often don't believe this advice will be taken literally (even if it is). Most of the instructors here aren't intending to have people ski bolt-upright, which is good. I do still think that "ski tall" is the wrong message for most skiers, though a couple of my clients would benefit from extending through the hip joint and perhaps "ski tall" might make a difference for them until we can move back into "extend laterally". 

 

tpj made a good point in another thread that "extend laterally" may not work for newer skiers because it takes commitment to "fall downhill" (or allow the upper body to move downhill of the skis) during the first phase of the turn to get on edge. I'm even uncomfortable at times in icy conditions during phase 1 where I don't have full faith that my ski will hold an edge. From what I've found in courses, the best strategies to teach edge engagement at phase 1 seem to be bend and stretch turns (stretching into the arc, and bending through the end of the turn). I'm thinking skating through turns could work too on mellower pitches, as would rollerblade turns, to a degree--though learners often picture they're doing perfect rollerblade turns when they're actually making a skiddy smear, so it's not a good self-monitoring exercise for most skiers. 

 

If you want to post a video of your son, we could help with development strategies you could take him through. (i.e. coach the coach)

post #130 of 130

Metaphor, I agree with you.  The words "Stand tall" can make all the wrong things happen.  Yes, of course, there are instances when it is appropriate.  The very words mean to stand up as tall as you can and anybody hearing them would think they should stand up as straight as they can, or certainly straighter than they might be doing in their skiing.  But those words have been used all too often when in fact, the desire is to have someone do more of the "extend laterally" you talk about.

 

Contrary to others, I have heard the words "stand tall" frequently coming out of Instructors mouths.  Over the last several years I have had Clinicians say "stand tall" and following it up with "reduce the angles in your ankles, knees and waist" and  "we should be skiing more upright these days".  I have heard that boot manufacturers have been reducing the forward lean and/or ramp angle in boots to support this more upright stance as well.

I have also heard, and have been told by Clinicians, that we want the outside leg to be long, again "stand tall" to stack the bones up better.  To the point of wanting the stripe down the side of our uniforms to be totally straight.  And we are being judged on how straight that stripe is!  (Lots of advice to not wear striped pants to an Exam.) And we want that "tallness" to be at the fall line.

Clinicians have also said that a long leg is better because it has more rotation angle than a bent leg even while LeMaster says a bent leg allows for a more powerful rotary action because bigger muscles are involved.

 

All well and good but I can tell you from personal experience that listening to that advice and really trying to do it has delayed any improvement in my skiing.  I have since learned to question more and not take things so literally without better understanding.

 

If we look at the montages in this thread that folks have so eagerly used to discuss ILE and OLR, etc. etc. we can easily see that at the fall line is where they are most bent over, not tall at all.  And the outside leg is certainly long at the fall line but mostly the inside leg is a whole lot shorter.  But also note that the outside leg is not straight either, it is surprisingly bent.  In fact, Svindals is bent more at the fall line than almost anywhere else in this turn!

 

So it has been difficult for me to resolve the advice from the experts(Instructors) to "stand tall" and "keep a long outside leg" when the experts (WC folks) appear to be doing just the opposite.

 

It all goes to point out that we, as Instructors, need to be very careful in our choice of words.  We have to be literal and say exactly what we mean because that is what the majority of the folks will hear and try to do. 

And yes, the advice "stay forward" is frayed with the same possible misconceptions instead of "athletic anticipation of not being back".

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