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Excessive quad burn -- form, equipment or both? - Page 11

post #301 of 331
I dunno, LF. It don't feel like I need to employ any particular muscular effort to be neutral in my cuffs with centered pressure underfoot. And I can relax just fine in the lift line or otherwise without resting on the tongues. Is it possible your forward lean is too aggressive? Seems like knees plumbing out ahead of toes might be a tad far. Or maybe I just am not following what all you are describing.
post #302 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

I've even learned from another thread this spring that "falling leaf" is being done the exact opposite of what I've been shown and have been teaching.  I'm used to leaning forward at ankles or pulling feet back to get the tips to seek the fall line.  But now I learn that I should be leaning back to focus body weight over the foot's heel and thus the tails of the skis to get tips to seek the fall line!   What a shock that was.  

It can be done in several ways LF. If I e.g. tip the uphill ski more up the hill than the downhill ski, and pressure the front of that ski, while keeping more weight on the downhill, less edged, ski the tails will seek the fall line. If I have weight towards the heel region of the downhill ski, now a bit more edged, the opposite will happen, and this is just two examples. Subtle differences hard to see for an outside observer can make a big difference.

With independent edge control, weight distribution and fore-aft you can make pretty much anything happen. If you play around with this until it becomes second nature I'm sure you will stick the pivot slips with no problem at all.

I think of it this way, If I want the tips to go down I need more friction aft than fore, and if I want the tails to go down I need more friction fore than aft. There are many ways to play with this friction.

post #303 of 331

I'm looking forward to playing around with falling leaf next season.

 

Skis nearly flat and perpendicular to the fall line, weight centered over skis, side-slip down the hill sideways, no forward nor backwards travel, on uphill edges but just barely, equal friction front and back.  Now shift weight forward gently; don't mess with the edging; the tips DO seek the fall line as the skis continue to slip down, but now there's diagonal travel in the direction your skis are pointing.  Wait long enough and the skis will be straight-lining down the hill.  I am not crazy; I know this works. (Am I?)  Same happens with pulling feet back under you; tips seek the fall line.  For going backwards, reverse this.  It's how I was taught to do it, but as we all know this is not the end of the story, or hopefully it isn't.  

 

It's the other stuff one can do with falling leaf that I'm not familiar with.  I'll play around with other options (unequal edging ski to ski, unequal weighting ski to ski, tipping onto downhill edges while slipping) next season.  Thanks for the specifics.

 

I've got the pivot slips; please trust me on this.  

post #304 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post

I dunno, LF. It don't feel like I need to employ any particular muscular effort to be neutral in my cuffs with centered pressure underfoot. And I can relax just fine in the lift line or otherwise without resting on the tongues. Is it possible your forward lean is too aggressive? Seems like knees plumbing out ahead of toes might be a tad far. Or maybe I just am not following what all you are describing.

 

Yup, you've read me right.  But they fit, and no other boot would fit my peculiar feet.  I have toe lifting shims under the fronts of the boots.  The angle between the shin and foot does not go away with this alteration, of course.

post #305 of 331
I am very familiar with that, LF. I even earned the position of being the example of too much forward lean in Ron LeMaster's presentations a few years back (what an honor rolleyes.gif )

I have ~8mm lift under the toe of my boot.

Then depending on the ski & binding combination I have anywhere from 0 to 11mm under the toe piece of my bindings. The ski and the bindings can have a big effect.
post #306 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

 

I've got the pivot slips; please trust me on this.  

Sorry again LF; I thought I read somewhere that you were struggling with pivot slips, but maybe that was in the past or even another person :-)

post #307 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Wow, you want to go there? Really? O.K. It's time for you to stop hiding behind your keyboard. Show up and teach what you preach. Those of us who have a long history of helping others improve have that track record to prove the well worn path we use has worked for hundreds if not thousands of skier. Dave and the Brians being just one example of that help. Telling him to lever aft because that is where balance is found? That's beyond silly and while tolerating other opinions is something we strive to do here, I see no reason to continue offering you a stage for your misguided opinions. Especially when you throw out things like your sarcastic and very poorly written version of the Emperor's New Clothes. Maybe it's time you read the posting guidelines and learn to follow them.

JASP

I suggested he lever aft to relieve his quad burn (not because that is where balance is found) because I correctly (it turns out) analyized that his constantly pressing against the front of his boot was causing quad burn because in order to carve his turns (as he was doing in the earlier part of his video anyway before he started slowing down) he had to stick his butt back further out to pressure his ski tails some (given that his knees were pressed so far forward). That left him constantly hanging by his quads and the unrelieved tension created a lactic acid build up that made them burn. Most commenters noticed his butt sticking out and felt he needed to get even further forward (which seems to be the standard ski school refrain). You are setting up a straw man to attack here and appear to be an excellent and subtle put-down artist. You get frustrated when that kind of bullying doesn't work to shut someone you disagree with up, and then you want to take your ball and go home. I suspect you hold some position of authority in your field, abuse it, and those who must suffer under you. That won't work with me and I'm sure that infuriates you.

 

There may be a perfect balance point but nobody can stay there all the time. To compusively try to, is to miss the point. It is the recovery of balance that is important. The more extreme that one skis the more important the ability to recover towards a more balanced position becomes. Time to recover is another important factor when things are happening fast. So the more one can stay in a position (I say somewhat behind the balance point because skis can be slowed down--and often unexpectedly are--a lot quicker than they can be sped up) from which recovering balance is easiest and most likely to succeed. The more cushion they build into their basic stance the more extreme conditions (and the faster) they will be able to ski. You, and several others here, seem obsessed with always being in perfect balance (such as you would have to do with your boots unbuckled) and not having to ever do anything that might mean you'll need to recover it again. To me that just makes the skier rigid and rule-bound. The best skiers anticipate what is going to happen next and make their estimated compensations in advance and then recover from their miscalculations in preparation from there. They are rarely actually "in balance", but they are usually trying to move in the direction of being more balanced in the next second than they were in the last. That is their goal anyhow. Loosen up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Met, I stand by what I wrote. The sport existed long before plastic boots and high cuffs existed. Leaning against the boot tongues, spines, or any other part of the cuff as a balance aid is not where balance is found. I suspect those who believe otherwise have misunderstood the role of the boot cuff. It transfers force to the ski but not so we can camp against the cuffs. Do some find stability there? Yes, but leaning against a wall offers the same sense of stability. Dynamic balance is not that stable. It is constantly shifting and changing. The term quicksilver has been used to describe how balancing feels. The better your balance skills, the less you need to rely on leaning on anything.

Unfortunately, so many instructors seem to believe in the always stay forward dogma and use the "feel your shins press against the front of the boots" suggestion that many skiers like the OP take it to heart and over use it. To my mind centered is better than forward and the faster and steeper one skis the more they need to get their feet out in front of them much of the time. You have to get out of balance (to one side) before you can turn a bicycle and the same goes for craving a turn on skis. Balance is not something that needs to be constantly maintained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

As this relates to Dave, his driving against the tongues produced poor balance and even though it offered some stability, the price was burning out his quads.

Dave wasn't pushing against the boot tounges for stability (although they may offer a little) he was doing what he had been told to do, probably by a misguided instructor or two somewhere. Even with this poor advice, that he had internalized and practiced religiously, he still somehow learned to carve his skis (getting enough pressure on the ski tails to do so) by squatting further and thus forcing his quads to do a lot more work than was necessary. You got him to move back some and relieved his burning quad problem. However, obsessively following your "perfect balance" perscription is likely to limit his skiing ability in the future. He seems to have natural ability and even overcame his rule bound shin press rigidity to learn to carve (but at the cost of quad burn). I suggest he forget ALL the rules and make his goals more open ended and functional. Ski Faster, Turn Quicker, and Don't Fall(TM).

post #308 of 331

Here is a post I wrote on another thread that I think applies here as well:

 

I've finally figured out the difference between me and most of the posters on this forum that can't even seem to conceive of where I'm coming from, but are absolutely sure it must be wrong because it isn't in the instruction manual. You focus on always having things be perfect and in balance at all times and I like the utter chaos of pushing the extremes, scrambling to survive, and learning how to recover when I go beyond my previous limits. You focus on trying to do one particular thing perfectly (as it has already been defined in the holy book and are hyper-critical of anything that doesn't look just like that perfect, already established, written down, dogma being preached in ski schools every Sunday). I'm always searching for a better way by exploring the extremes and developing new techniques through that process. Your highest ideal is probably to be on the national demonstration team and do perfectly synchronized runs together with your teammates at Interski. There is nothing wrong with that. To each his own. To quote what a young Glen Plake told his race coaches after an early freestyle event came to his area: "I don't want to ski like you anymore".

Ski Faster, Turn Quicker, Don't Fall(TM)

post #309 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

I didn't mention ball-of-foot pressure.  I should have addressed foot sole pressure from the start so people wouldn't misread what I was saying.  Oh well.  

 

Keeping the whole foot weighted, with the shin forward to match boot cuff angle while skiing -- that was what I was addressing.  It takes some muscular action to sustain that shin-foot angle in boots with noticeable forward lean.  It doesn't come naturally.  Perhaps people who have been skiing 40 years don't ever think about it, but I still do have to think about it.  

 

And I think my students (lower level skiers, adults mostly) need to think about it too, even though their boots (if rental) are not very aggressive in forward lean.  Perhaps they don't need to think about it, and I should stop talking about it in lessons.  I'm open to that possibility.  

 

I am not suggesting leaning on the tongues during all parts of a turn and thus levering the tips.  It has been my experience that keeping the heel down and maintaining body weight on it as well as on the BOF deletes the tip-levering.  I learned that from Matt Boyd in a technical talk one afternoon, but perhaps I got it wrong.  Must go out and see, next December.  I've even learned from another thread this spring that "falling leaf" is being done the exact opposite of what I've been shown and have been teaching.  I'm used to leaning forward at ankles or pulling feet back to get the tips to seek the fall line.  But now I learn that I should be leaning back to focus body weight over the foot's heel and thus the tails of the skis to get tips to seek the fall line!   What a shock that was.  There's still so much to learn about using the bottom of the foot....  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

It can be done in several ways LF. If I e.g. tip the uphill ski more up the hill than the downhill ski, and pressure the front of that ski, while keeping more weight on the downhill, less edged, ski the tails will seek the fall line. If I have weight towards the heel region of the downhill ski, now a bit more edged, the opposite will happen, and this is just two examples. Subtle differences hard to see for an outside observer can make a big difference.

With independent edge control, weight distribution and fore-aft you can make pretty much anything happen. If you play around with this until it becomes second nature I'm sure you will stick the pivot slips with no problem at all.

I think of it this way, If I want the tips to go down I need more friction aft than fore, and if I want the tails to go down I need more friction fore than aft. There are many ways to play with this friction.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

I'm looking forward to playing around with falling leaf next season.

 

Skis nearly flat and perpendicular to the fall line, weight centered over skis, side-slip down the hill sideways, no forward nor backwards travel, on uphill edges but just barely, equal friction front and back.  Now shift weight forward gently; don't mess with the edging; the tips DO seek the fall line as the skis continue to slip down, but now there's diagonal travel in the direction your skis are pointing.  Wait long enough and the skis will be straight-lining down the hill.  I am not crazy; I know this works. (Am I?)  Same happens with pulling feet back under you; tips seek the fall line.  For going backwards, reverse this.  It's how I was taught to do it, but as we all know this is not the end of the story, or hopefully it isn't.  

 

It's the other stuff one can do with falling leaf that I'm not familiar with.  I'll play around with other options (unequal edging ski to ski, unequal weighting ski to ski, tipping onto downhill edges while slipping) next season.  Thanks for the specifics.

 

I've got the pivot slips; please trust me on this.  

It is sort of a paradox, but a falling leaf can be done both ways. When there is very little resistance from edging the weight forward position will result in the tips falling faster than the ski tails (and visa versa). However, a lot more edging produces the opposite effect because then the more weighted ends edges provide more braking on that end of the ski. This paradox is probably only of concern when teaching skiers who have not yet learned to edge nearly enough. For more advanced skiers the braking effect of more pressure on one end of the ski or the other far overwhelms the other much more subtle effect. I just remembered there is another time when one needs to consider the more subtle effect because it may well be the predominate effect them. That is when skiing on glare ice. A time when your edges may not able to get a good grip. I have to stay more balanced over the center of my skis in that condition.

Ski faster, Turn Quicker, Dont Fall(TM)


Edited by EdgeByter - 5/31/13 at 4:18pm
post #310 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdgeByter View Post

Here is a post I wrote on another thread that I think applies here as well:

 

I've finally figured out the difference between me and most of the posters on this forum that can't even seem to conceive of where I'm coming from, but are absolutely sure it must be wrong because it isn't in the instruction manual. You focus on always having things be perfect and in balance at all times and I like the utter chaos of pushing the extremes, scrambling to survive, and learning how to recover when I go beyond my previous limits. You focus on trying to do one particular thing perfectly (as it has already been defined in the holy book and are hyper-critical of anything that doesn't look just like that perfect, already established, written down, dogma being preached in ski schools every Sunday). I'm always searching for a better way by exploring the extremes and developing new techniques through that process. Your highest ideal is probably to be on the national demonstration team and do perfectly synchronized runs together with your teammates at Interski. There is nothing wrong with that. To each his own. To quote what a young Glen Plake told his race coaches after an early freestyle event came to his area: "I don't want to ski like you anymore".

Ski Faster, Turn Quicker, Don't Fall(TM)

 

 

You certainly make a lot of assumptions. Maybe you could just drop by and join in for a free ski day. Personally, I won't put in a single word of MA or advise unless it's asked for... it's the code of happiness.  BTW, Glen Plake is PSIA level III. Apparently he mastered the dogma. smile.gif

 

Honestly, my problem is that, no offense, but you use a pile of words that fail to clearly articulate whatever it is you're trying to communicate. I just can never quite figure it out, so I pretty much tuned out awhile ago. 

post #311 of 331
EB, Again show up and walk your talk. There is nothing new in anything you have written and most of us have explored that path long ago. It is silly to think you are the first to do anything on skis.
post #312 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

 

 

You certainly make a lot of assumptions. Maybe you could just drop by and join in for a free ski day. Personally, I won't put in a single word of MA or advise unless it's asked for... it's the code of happiness.  BTW, Glen Plake is PSIA level III. Apparently he mastered the dogma. smile.gif

 

Honestly, my problem is that, no offense, but you use a pile of words that fail to clearly articulate whatever it is you're trying to communicate. I just can never quite figure it out, so I pretty much tuned out awhile ago. 

I'd say guesses rather than assumptions. Where and when is the next EpicSki free ski day (if such a thing exists)? I realize I'm not very good with English and my writing could use a lot of editing to make it easier to read (and hopefully more understandable). I apologize for that. I have trouble following what some here mean myself, especially JASP. The technical jargon tends to get pretty thick (and often remains unexplained--at least to me) and that makes it hard for me to completely understand what is being said. I had no trouble understanding and agreeing with most of what I found in Ron Lemaster's Ultimate Skiing though (but then it comes with a glossary). Another possibility may be that our entire philosophies of learning are so radically different we can't understand where each other is coming from (as I had suggested above might be the case).

 

Mastering the dogma may be a lot easier than a wholehearted acceptance of it. My present glimmer of hope is that the powers that be in PSIA will listen closely to what Glen has to say about skiing and incorporate it into their teaching system, rather than just trying to turn him into a celebrity spokesperson for the existing product.

post #313 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

EB, Again show up and walk your talk. There is nothing new in anything you have written and most of us have explored that path long ago. It is silly to think you are the first to do anything on skis.

I'm not claiming to be the first to do something on skis (although there may be a few exceptions to that in some mostly forgotten areas). What I meant was that I personally learn new techniques that work for me (and my particular body plan) by pushing my limits much better than I do by trying to fit myself into someone else's existing mold. Some of the techniques I use seem to be over 100 years old and long forgotten, such as the Open (or Scissor) Christiania. Just because in the popular market of ski teaching methods that Norwegian turning style lost out to the Hannes Schneider's Arlberg school (of the Snow Plough and Stem Turn) doesn't mean it wasn't the superior skiing technique. Most likely Hannes was just far better at marketing his ideas and modern skiing got off on the wrong foot.


Edited by EdgeByter - 5/31/13 at 7:25pm
post #314 of 331

   Again, Edgebyter...with all due respect, this thread has LONG since expired (read "shelf-life")...no one new to this wants to read through who knows how many pages of this to figure out what's going on. Pick a topic, and start a new one. Don't say you don't have time--besides, there's not much being talked about now-a-days in this particular forum anyway. smile.gif

 

    zenny

post #315 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 

 

...as far as accuracy goes from someone who wants to get caught up in semantics and hypothetical movements from imaginary students...

 

That's the best thing that I have read all day. Well done.

 

"Hypothetical movements from imaginary students"...brilliant!

 

Best Wishes,

Geoff

post #316 of 331

Hey Geoff.  Welcome to Epicski.

This often happens with new members .... see the time and date written in the thin gray strip positioned just above your post?  That identifies when you posted.  Check the date of the post immediately before yours..... it's from 2013.  It's always a good idea to check the last post's date before commenting, just in case the thread is long dead.  That said, some threads can be resurrected to have a lively second life.  

post #317 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Hey Geoff.  Welcome to Epicski.
This often happens with new members .... see the time and date written in the thin gray strip positioned just above your post?  That identifies when you posted.  Check the date of the post immediately before yours..... it's from 2013.  It's always a good idea to check the last post's date before commenting, just in case the thread is long dead.  That said, some threads can be resurrected to have a lively second life.  

Hi there. Thanks for the welcome.

I realise this thread is ancient but the characterization was so on point that it made me laugh out loud.

As a relative newcomer to the forums here, which are great, I have noticed a tendency for posters to argue the smallest of points back and forth ad-nauseum as if the OP cared or understood any of it. Surely it can't hurt to point out how silly it looks to an outsider to see obviously knowledgable people arguing so vigourously about "hypothetical movements from imaginary students." The message is lost in the drivel.

All the best,
Geoff
post #318 of 331

my quads are burning just looking at that photo :D

 

you want your feet, hips, shoulders, head... all stacked with hands in front you.

 

when i get less confident, i do the same thing.  we've all done it.

 

this video might help:

 

cheers


Edited by jstein - 12/29/16 at 7:53pm
post #319 of 331

Dude in the video doesn't know what a dolphin turn is. Although, he is very good at lining his fingers up while looking away from his hands. That is what is referred to as the Mr. Burns motor pattern. I can't do that yet. So far, all I can do is line up my palms to clap without looking at my hands. I need a good coach. Any recommendations?

 

Edit: A diagram of the motor pattern in question.

 

Image result for mr burns finger tapping 


Edited by Rich666 - 12/30/16 at 8:51am
post #320 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstein View Post
 

my quads are burning just looking at that photo :D

 

you want your feet, hips, shoulders, head... all stacked with hands in front you.

 

when i get less confident, i do the same thing.  we've all done it.

 

this video might help:

 

cheers


I'm not very impressed with this video.  I don't think this guy is a great instructor.  His answer to being in the back seat is to get more forward, but he doesn't explain how to do that.  It's like telling somebody to suck less.  How about a movement, a body part, and a phase of the turn?  How do I get out of the back seat?  When do I get out of the backseat, and why should I get out of the backseat?  Not having sore quads is a good reason, but not the only reason or even the best reason to make the move forward.  I also think his drills are weak for the intended purpose.  Like Rich says above....  He doesn't know what a dolphin turn is.  I doubt that he could do one if he did.

post #321 of 331
What drill would you suggest as an alternative?
post #322 of 331
@tetonpwdrjunkie Agree. "Get more forward" not helpful. One way is to get into nice knees bent, ankles flexed, shin pressure on boot tongues...then exaggerate a forward lean, like how far can you lean forward over your skis, heels almost lifting, then back as far as you can until you start swivelling on your tails... Then go max forward again, hold it, then gently rise back slightly to a comfortable forward stance. I know, still hard to describe in words without a demo but shows how much range of lean there is... And where ideally your stance should be in that range.

Another one, ride super gentle terrain straight glide into a small mellow bank, ride up, then just let gravity take you back down switch. Remind them switch is a valid skiing skill...not an error. A skier will naturally lean forward as they ride switch down. There is your stance.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
post #323 of 331
However I would also say dolphin turns are just a party trick for very athletic skiers, they have very little to do with any kind of real skiing. A drill without a cause. Ok maybe if you want to learn hop turns for breakable crust. Fun. There is seldom gratuitous hopping in skiing otherwise. If anything the reverse should be taught for most technical skiing... constant ski to snow contact to control speed in steeps and bumps. Push into the snow, not up out of it.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
post #324 of 331

What I have found useful for my students is to play with the movement at transition, and I give them "two" movements:

 

1. Pull your feet back as you start the turn. I'll draw a line in the snow where the transition happens and tell them to stop their feet on the line while moving their body into the new turn, or

2. Extend ("unflex") your knee as you move into the new turn. Keep your ankles flexed, but extend your knees.

 

Of course, for those of you playing along at home, these two moves are actually the same. They are just two different ways of seeing and feeling the move. This is the move that "gets you forward." I also have my guests check for where the pressure is on the soles of their feet: where do they feel the pressure? Toes? Ball? Arch? Heel? Move that pressure around. Ski a turn with pressure on each of those areas of the feet. Feel what happens when you do. How do the skis turn? How does it feel? What do you do to move the pressure around?

 

Those are the starting points...

post #325 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by scouper View Post

However I would also say dolphin turns are just a party trick for very athletic skiers, they have very little to do with any kind of real skiing. A drill without a cause. Ok maybe if you want to learn hop turns for breakable crust. Fun. There is seldom gratuitous hopping in skiing otherwise. If anything the reverse should be taught for most technical skiing... constant ski to snow contact to control speed in steeps and bumps. Push into the snow, not up out of it.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

 

Dolphin turns are great. They require mobility across all planes, and an ability to move through balance. They're a great way to develop a feeling for pressure control. They also give you the sensation of skiing the bumps, and are a great tactic to use in the bumps to manage a bump ahead of you.

 

When done well, dolphin turns do not require a lot of athleticism. The energy when you "pop" primarily comes from the forces acting on you, rather than from pushing (there's a bit of push, but it doesn't have to be big). I would say that the dolphin turn is a refinement-level drill, so not everyone is far enough in their development to succeed at them. The baby brother to the dolphin turn is the hop turn, the stork turn, hopping to 180 degrees, and shuffling through turns. 

 

If you can't do a dolphin turn, it's worth understanding what's blocking you. The dolphin turn itself can be a diagnostic tool to understand whether there's an issue with mobility, timing, pressure control, or even tipping. 

post #326 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by scouper View Post

@tetonpwdrjunkie Agree. "Get more forward" not helpful. One way is to get into nice knees bent, ankles flexed, shin pressure on boot tongues...then exaggerate a forward lean, like how far can you lean forward over your skis, heels almost lifting, then back as far as you can until you start swivelling on your tails... Then go max forward again, hold it, then gently rise back slightly to a comfortable forward stance. I know, still hard to describe in words without a demo but shows how much range of lean there is... And where ideally your stance should be in that range.

Another one, ride super gentle terrain straight glide into a small mellow bank, ride up, then just let gravity take you back down switch. Remind them switch is a valid skiing skill...not an error. A skier will naturally lean forward as they ride switch down. There is your stance.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

I've got an idea. Why not lean as far forward as you can and then try to ski while in that position. Next lean as far back as you can and try to ski in that position as well. Don't give up too soon. Like with anything, you will quickly get better at it with a little practice. Once you are good at both then it should be an easy matter to ski anywhere in between those extremes and you can easily choose where in that range between those extremes seems to work best for you in different conditions. You will also probably learn how to return to your favored position from either extreme as well. Wouldn't that make you a much more well rounded skier than someone trying to hold some perfect position all the time?

 

Forward Extreme:

Try bending forward and grabbing your ski tips. Your tails will be so light initiating a turn once you start downhill should be pretty easy. Try separating your tips a bit and twist the tip you want to turn towards (to the outside) while shifting more weight to that ski. Stopping the turn you get started won't be so easy though, So to complete a 360 and go forward again I suggest you lift up on your ski tips (with your hands) just before you are going backwards.  That way the pressured tips won't stop your spin and leave you descending in reverse. If you get locked into reverse look between you legs to see where you are going. Preferably you would carve a turn to a stop, but if you chose too steep a hill to practice on, a reverse wedge might be called for.

 

Rear Extreme: 

Sit back down with your butt as close to your ski tails as you can. Wrap you arms around you knees to help hold that position. Try to ski down a gentle slope. Separate your ski tips a little more than your tails and shift some weight on to the ski on the side you want to turn towards. 

What other extremes might be worth trying? Can you make your skis turn with nearly imperceptible body motions? Instead of trying to be someone else's idea of perfect all the time, why not push the extremes to extend your range?

 

Ski Faster, Turn Quicker, Don't Fall (TM)

post #327 of 331

I'm currently using feet pull back to avoid the back seat, but what clicked for me to get me out of the back seat even after I had heard of and tried foot pull back was something a considerate skier posted here, "close the ankle".  Different strokes for different folks I guess.

post #328 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

I'm currently using feet pull back to avoid the back seat, but what clicked for me to get me out of the back seat even after I had heard of and tried foot pull back was something a considerate skier posted here, "close the ankle".  Different strokes for different folks I guess.


Ghost has just listed some of my lower-body-go-to-solutions for my own skiing when skis won't behave, as well as for my students.  Here's my whole list of lower-body fore-aft-over-the-ski-balance solutions: 

 

--Closing both ankles is felt in the muscle at the front of the lower leg, and oddly does not usually produce sore muscles the next day (as do wall-sits on skis, the result of skiing with open ankles all day long).  I put this one first on my list for teaching my lower level skiers to maintain balance over the middle of the ski while skiing.  Learners find it hard to remember to do; I work with students on remembering, while skiing in all kinds of conditions.

--Pulling both feet back can be felt at the glute area when addressing novices and lower intermediates, who stand pretty tall as they ski (not hip-to-snow).  TMI:  they are actually pulling the femur back (hip extension), which moves the knee and everything below it back.

--Pulling both feet back so they feel like they are behind the hips (as an alternative conceptualization) can sometimes get both of the above to happen.  

--There's also pull-the-outside-foot-back as you extend that leg, in the case of long-leg-short-leg skiers doing dynamic carved turns.  This works as an alternative to telling them to press into the inside front of the boot cuff, which sometimes focuses the skier's attention on the knee bend (not good) instead of the hip extension.

--Pulling the feet back can be done from the knees as well (close the knees, flex the knees, to get the feet to slide backwards under the hips), when the skier is low in transition.  This is a hamstring task.... useful to get reaching short radius turns to work, just before the reach.

 

I teach some of these every day.


Edited by LiquidFeet - 1/3/17 at 7:38am
post #329 of 331

 

 

I don't know why people are complaining about their quads while skiing.  It looks like a blast!

 

 

 

 

I only see a few reasons why this happens skiing:

 

1. poor technique... guilty sometimes, lets be real, especially early in the season

2. boots are too stiff... guilty at least once in our life until we learn the hard way that numbers don't mean a thing if it means it sucks

3. a little out of shape... maybe some preseason squats and stair climbing wouldn't be a bad idea next time considering most people spend their lives sitting at a desk all day and think 3 flights of stairs is ridiculous

 

So if you're muscles hurt, you know you're using them A LOT.  And there's only so many reasons you'll use them a lot.  Figure out the reason why and work on it (it's usually 1 and sometimes 3).

post #330 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstein View Post
 

 

 

I don't know why people are complaining about their quads while skiing.  It looks like a blast!

 

 

 

 

I only see a few reasons why this happens skiing:

 

1. poor technique... guilty sometimes, lets be real, especially early in the season

2. boots are too stiff... guilty at least once in our life until we learn the hard way that numbers don't mean a thing if it means it sucks

3. a little out of shape... maybe some preseason squats and stair climbing wouldn't be a bad idea next time considering most people spend their lives sitting at a desk all day and think 3 flights of stairs is ridiculous

 

So if you're muscles hurt, you know you're using them A LOT.  And there's only so many reasons you'll use them a lot.  Figure out the reason why and work on it (it's usually 1 and sometimes 3).

Nice Quads.  I'm not guilty of 3.  but guilty of being a lot out of shape, so out of shape that skiing down hill for a mere 200 or 300 feet of vertical has me noticing me breathing hard on the lift early season. Combine a lot out of shape with multiple multi g force turns for 7 hours and you notice your legs are a little stiff the next day.   After three days they are fine though.

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