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Excessive quad burn -- form, equipment or both? - Page 10

post #271 of 314

And EB, you're very mistaken about telemark skiing. It ruthlessly punishes being out of balance both fore and AFT... 

post #272 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

And EB, you're very mistaken about telemark skiing. It ruthlessly punishes being out of balance both fore and AFT... 

I'm no expert at telemark skiing, but what did I say to make you write this? I wasn't even thinking telemark turns when I wrote about it, rather I was thinking skiing alpine technique in boots that would seriously punish a forward lean (as would unbuckled boots, as well). I found I could ski alpine style in telemark boots if I was very carefull to stay well back so there was little risk of my getting too far forward.


Edited by EdgeByter - 5/20/13 at 6:03pm
post #273 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

 It's sad how many folks believe they cannot balance on skis without their crutches. It is analogous to a child learning to walk and grasping furniture as they move around the room. Eventually they lose that perceived need and they are then free to walk without the crutches. It really isn't hard to ski with your boots unbuckled.

JASP

You can certainly jump to conclusions, HOW SAD.

 

I like my ski boots, they fit me so well that I can ski with them totally unbuckled. Big deal. But why would I even want to? My boots give me more capabilities when they are buckled up and the tighter I make the power strap the better they work. Just because I can ski without what you call crutches, doesn't mean I won't use them if they provide me with greater capabilities than I could possibly achieve without them.

 

Do you use ski poles? Do you use shaped skis? Do your boots have high backs? Do your skis have a turn up at the tips? Aren't these all crutches too? I kind of consider my ski poles to be my third and fourth legs. They turn me into a four-legged animal. Because I'm good at using them though, I have also used them as crutches several times. When learning to ride a unicycle, when I tried snowboarding, and most recently after I snapped my achilles tendon playing tennis (before I knew that it was completely ruptured).

 

Just because I could carve straight skis I didn't demean those who could only carve with their shaped ski crutches. Once I tried them, I wished I had switched to shaped skis a lot sooner.

 

If I see anyone skiing with their boots unbuckled I'll say hi to you.


Edited by EdgeByter - 5/20/13 at 6:13pm
post #274 of 314
No, you stay well balanced in telemark boots skiing alpine parallel technique. The boots, even the big stiffies, are still relatively soft,
So you need to be centered on the ski and maintain cuff pressure. Ruthlessly centered.
post #275 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

No, you stay well balanced in telemark boots skiing alpine parallel technique. The boots, even the big stiffies, are still relatively soft,
So you need to be centered on the ski and maintain cuff pressure. Ruthlessly centered.

I was trying out some stiff black Scarpa boots I bought at a garage sale for $30 and some straight Tua Diablo MX skis with Voile release bindings I got at Goodwill for $10. I hadn't made any tele turns for over 20 years and had only tried telemarking a few times back then. Back then it was clear to me I needed much stiffer boots than the light XC boots I was trying to use if I expected to ever have any reasonable control of the skis, but I wasn't willing to fork over $400 plus for some boots I might not use much.

 

It felt like I was a rank beginner when I got off the intermediate chair on the first run last season. Some friends gave me a few tips. I don't know how many times I came close to falling over forward, but it was a lot. Telemarking soon came pretty natural for me though because the front leg position is pretty much how I often use both legs in downhill skiing. It took a little while to figure out how to use the back ski though. Somehow I managed to not fall down for 5 hours, but there were many close calls and almost all of them were from getting too far forward. One time I blew out of a binding in my scramble to stay on my feet when I was about to land on my nose, but it worked out. When I went up on the steeper hills for awhile I skied alpine style and stayed well into the back seat while skiing fast. I had no balance problems back there and could ski pretty much like I normally do (while reminding myself constantly to never press forward on the front cuff of the boots--something I'm not generally afraid to do with downhill equipment).

post #276 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdgeByter View Post

 

 

It felt like I was a rank beginner when I got off the intermediate chair on the first run last season. Some friends gave me a few tips. I don't know how many times I came close to falling over forward, but it was a lot. Telemarking soon came pretty natural for me though because the front leg position is pretty much how I often use both legs in downhill skiing. It took a little while to figure out how to use the back ski though. Somehow I managed to not fall down for 5 hours, but there were many close calls and almost all of them were from getting too far forward. One time I blew out of a binding in my scramble to stay on my feet when I was about to land on my nose, but it worked out. When I went up on the steeper hills for awhile I skied alpine style and stayed well into the back seat while skiing fast. I had no balance problems back there and could ski pretty much like I normally do (while reminding myself constantly to never press forward on the front cuff of the boots--something I'm not generally afraid to do with downhill equipment).

You claim that you usually work the tail of the skis and yet you fall forward when you try tele, that does not make sense. With modern tele it is quite easy to use alpine technique, you just have to be a bit more centered and legs not too straight.

post #277 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

You claim that you usually work the tail of the skis and yet you fall forward when you try tele, that does not make sense. With modern tele it is quite easy to use alpine technique, you just have to be a bit more centered and legs not too straight.

I'm not sure what you mean by "work the tail of the skis". If that means hopping them around that is definitely not what I do. If you mean usually keeping pressure on them (sometimes more, sometimes less) and edging them, then that is what I usually do. I didn't fall once in five hours, but all the times I came real close to falling it was because I didn't have at least one ski far enough in front of me, very likely due to some dumb mistake I made as a relative novice telemark skier. When you are skiing fairly fast all sorts of things can suddenly slow your skis. With alpine equipment the cuffs of your stiff alpine boots can help you arrest your upper body's forward motion by levering the energy downward on the front of the skis. Cuff pressure against the top front of tele boots can not do that, leaving one more vulnerable to tumbling forward . Using alpine technique with tele equipment, that I was not at all accustomed to, I may have overcompensated by riding further in the back seat to give myself more room for error.

 

All sorts of things can slow a ski down, very few speed them up. Aa transition to a steeper slope is the only one I can think of right now--even moving suddenly from sticky snow (sun) to slippery snow (shade) doesn't speed the skis up, although the release of the braking effect of the sticky snow might make it feel that way. Also if the skis speed up it doesn't happen nearly as suddenly as skis can slow down At those times when the skis do speed up, the high backs, of even tele boots, will lever pressure down on the ski tails and my quads, gluts, and abs can probably use the support of my ski tails then to keep me from falling over backward. So, for me, the bigger danger on tele skis (or on any skis in rough and variable terrain) is getting thrown forward. I didn't fall once even though I was skiing alpine style pretty fast on strange equipment. So what I was doing, even if it was exaggerated and unnecessary (for an expert anyhow), worked for me to accomplish my third goal in Ski Faster, Turn Quicker, Don't Fall(TM). As I improve and become more familiar with tele gear, then this may no longer be as big an issue for me.

 

I assume that with your legs "not too straight" you mean you are lowering your center of gravity (and I'll bet also getting a little into the back seat in the process). Both would help reduce the chance of pivoting forward off the balls of your feet if something slowed your skis.

 

I'm theorizing that if I was about to fall forward using alpine technique on tele skis the best thing I could probably do would be to revert to a low tele position by throwing one leg back, which by an equal and opposite reaction, would shove the other foot forward and at the same time lower my center of gravity and make the angle between my ski fronts and my COM significantly less (so less likely to pivot the boot up and forward over the ball of the foot). Dropping down to the lower position would also buy me a little time to get into the new position. This would be sort of like the Face Saving Shuffle(TM) I recently discovered using alpine equipment to keep me from falling forward when slush piles slowed my skis much quicker than I had expected. Given how far tele bindings allow one to push one ski back, and thus the other one further forward (while also lowering the COM) this should work even better than the Face Saving Shuffle(TM) does. As I theorized before (in the Balance Everyday thread I think), the tele skiing day may even be where my Inner Animal(TM) learned some of the moves that resulted in the Face Saving Shuffle(TM).


Edited by EdgeByter - 5/21/13 at 7:05pm
post #278 of 314

  Clearly you have plenty of time...go ahead and start a thread. smile.gif

 

     zenny


Edited by zentune - 5/21/13 at 7:23pm
post #279 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdgeByter View Post

I was trying out some stiff black Scarpa boots I bought at a garage sale for $30 and some straight Tua Diablo MX skis with Voile release bindings I got at Goodwill for $10. I hadn't made any tele turns for over 20 years and had only tried telemarking a few times back then. Back then it was clear to me I needed much stiffer boots than the light XC boots I was trying to use if I expected to ever have any reasonable control of the skis, but I wasn't willing to fork over $400 plus for some boots I might not use much.

 

It felt like I was a rank beginner when I got off the intermediate chair on the first run last season. Some friends gave me a few tips. I don't know how many times I came close to falling over forward, but it was a lot. Telemarking soon came pretty natural for me though because the front leg position is pretty much how I often use both legs in downhill skiing. It took a little while to figure out how to use the back ski though. Somehow I managed to not fall down for 5 hours, but there were many close calls and almost all of them were from getting too far forward. One time I blew out of a binding in my scramble to stay on my feet when I was about to land on my nose, but it worked out. When I went up on the steeper hills for awhile I skied alpine style and stayed well into the back seat while skiing fast. I had no balance problems back there and could ski pretty much like I normally do (while reminding myself constantly to never press forward on the front cuff of the boots--something I'm not generally afraid to do with downhill equipment).

 

Telemark... sounds like you're skiing kind of old school poodled (enough space between your front and back leg as seen from the 'sagital view' (that's side) for a poodle to run through them. It sounds like you're just young, very physically strong, and able to compensate your 'aft' skiing by brute strength. I see it done everyday. At some point, most likely when recovering from injury, sickness, just getting older, trying to skiing 4+k vertical non-stop, etc..., you'll find it necessary to sort things out and ski more skeletally/efficiently. The true test of your back seat effectiveness theory would be to start doing some SL racing on either your alpine or telemark rig. My guess is you're going to be a whole lot less 'good' at it than you might imagine.

post #280 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

  Clearly you have plenty of time...go ahead and start a thread. smile.gif

 

     zenny

What do yo think I should call this thread? Actually, I'm going to have to sign off for awhile to take care of other matters. When I return I'll consider what I might like to discuss and it I come up with something I'll start a thread.

post #281 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdgeByter View Post

What do you think I should call this thread? Actually, I'm going to have to sign off for awhile to take care of other matters. When I return I'll consider what I might like to discuss and it I come up with something I'll start a thread.

    

 

    I don't know...something like "tail biased carving", or "carving off of the tails"....

 

 

    zenny

post #282 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

 

Telemark... sounds like you're skiing kind of old school poodled (enough space between your front and back leg as seen from the 'sagital view' (that's side) for a poodle to run through them. It sounds like you're just young, very physically strong, and able to compensate your 'aft' skiing by brute strength. I see it done everyday. At some point, most likely when recovering from injury, sickness, just getting older, trying to skiing 4+k vertical non-stop, etc..., you'll find it necessary to sort things out and ski more skeletally/efficiently. The true test of your back seat effectiveness theory would be to start doing some SL racing on either your alpine or telemark rig. My guess is you're going to be a whole lot less 'good' at it than you might imagine.

I have seen a video of me skiing telemark and I gather that what I was doing was the more traditional lower more spread out style and I have been told that the more modern style is more upright with the legs much closer together. Maybe now that I've seen that video of myself I'll try the modern style the next time I break out the tele gear. I was tele skiing groomed intermediate and beginner slopes. I certainly don't feel confident enough in my tele turns yet to tackle off piste skiing (with any tele style anyway). I do like racing though and, in fact, I raced down the beginner chair making telemark turns against my much more experienced friends near the end of that day. I had to wait at the bottom for a long time before they got there. I'm just more comfortable skiing at higher speeds than they are (and apparently willing to take a lot more chances to win given my relative lack of tele experience).

 

From what I paid for the tele gear above, you can probably deduce that I'm a cheapskate. I would love to slalom race and those who do slalom race who have seen me ski in the ski area I most often frequent have even asked me a few times to join their team. When I inquired about how it worked and what it would cost to do so, I found it was over twice as much as I paid for a weekday seasons pass, plus all the gas I used skiing 27 times this last season, plus all I've spent on ski gear in the last five years. So being a cheapskate (and also wanting to pick the days I choose to ski) is what is stopping me. I'd like to ski in gates and do so every free (or cheap) opportunity that I can. With the way things are set up though that doesn't happen very often. Occasionally when I come upon a course being taken down I always ask if I can run the rest of the gates. That happened once shortly after I got the Volkl Race Tigers over five years ago. I told the guys taking down the course that I got these new race skis and I'd like to try them out in a course. The skis impressed me how well they sprang me back and forth between the ruts and I was slamming the gates aside as I crashed down through them. The race kids watching were whooping and hollering. Sometimes I even try skiing in the ruts left after the slalom gates are taken down.

 

While I know it is a pretty easy course, I wish there were a NASTAR course in my area, but there isn't one in any of the many ski areas in my entire (not small) state. I've checked. Do you think the ski areas would mind if I got myself some of the little brush like things and set up my own little slalom courses in some out of the way place?

 

While I don't get any practice at it I've been in a few fun races and even won one (and a pair of skis) once. In a NASTAR race once (when traveling out of state) I came within ten percent of the national pacesetter's time. Considering my lack of practice at racing in gates I felt pretty good about that.

post #283 of 314

We're all on budgets of some sort, that's for sure... well, I'm guessing many of us are. smile.gif  Beer league racing out here is about $100 for the season for the interested. No one whoops and hollers at people running gates, particular junior racers unless, well, your skiing is kind of 'interesting' . That's in a way that shouldn't be mistaken as evidence of awesomeness, EB. Again, let us know which region you're in and I'm sure someone can help you find some less expensive racing/running gates alternatives... something a bit more challenging than a Nastar course as well maybe.

post #284 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post
We're all on budgets of some sort, that's for sure... well, I'm guessing many of us are. smile.gif  Beer league racing out here is about $100 for the season for the interested. No one whoops and hollers at people running gates, particular junior racers unless, well, your skiing is kind of 'interesting' . That's in a way that shouldn't be mistaken as evidence of awesomeness, EB. Again, let us know which region you're in and I'm sure someone can help you find some less expensive racing/running gates alternatives... something a bit more challenging than a Nastar course as well maybe.

True. Maybe Bode running it, and if people know he's coming so they pay attention. Otherwise to most people gates are like white noise.

We had AJ Kitt running Nastar regionals this season.

No whoops and hollers and it was right under the lift.

Edgebyter, seriously you need to post some visuals.

post #285 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdgeByter View Post

JASP

You can certainly jump to conclusions, HOW SAD.

 

I like my ski boots, they fit me so well that I can ski with them totally unbuckled. Big deal. But why would I even want to? My boots give me more capabilities when they are buckled up and the tighter I make the power strap the better they work. Just because I can ski without what you call crutches, doesn't mean I won't use them if they provide me with greater capabilities than I could possibly achieve without them.

 

Do you use ski poles? Do you use shaped skis? Do your boots have high backs? Do your skis have a turn up at the tips? Aren't these all crutches too? I kind of consider my ski poles to be my third and fourth legs. They turn me into a four-legged animal. Because I'm good at using them though, I have also used them as crutches several times. When learning to ride a unicycle, when I tried snowboarding, and most recently after I snapped my Achilles tendon playing tennis (before I knew that it was completely ruptured).

 

Just because I could carve straight skis I didn't demean those who could only carve with their shaped ski crutches. Once I tried them, I wished I had switched to shaped skis a lot sooner.

 

If I see anyone skiing with their boots unbuckled I'll say hi to you.

I think I've come up with a new sporting event that will be wildly popular. Crutch-less snow sliding. Imagine a steep snow covered slope. The competitors start at the top. No crutches are allowed. So that means no poles, no helmets, no skis, no boots, no socks, and no clothes of any kind. Slide down the hill and try to stay upright on your bare feet. First one at the bottom and still standing wins the speed event. The style event could be judged and have several categories. I think this might even be the one sport where the women's event would attract a bigger audience than the men's event.

post #286 of 314

Wow, you want to go there? Really? O.K. It's time for you to stop hiding behind your keyboard. Show up and teach what you preach. Those of us who have a long history of helping others improve have that track record to prove the well worn path we use has worked for hundreds if not thousands of skier. Dave and the Brians being just one example of that help. Telling him to lever aft because that is where balance is found? That's beyond silly and while tolerating other opinions is something we strive to do here, I see no reason to continue offering you a stage for your misguided opinions. Especially when you throw out things like your sarcastic and very poorly written version of the Emperor's New Clothes. Maybe it's time you read the posting guidelines and learn to follow them.

post #287 of 314

It's just a web forum. I didn't interpret the tirade about crutches as a personal attack against you, but rather as an expression of frustration with people calling a helpful property of any object a crutch. 

 

He/she made a good point that most skiers are either standing static in one position of the boot, or at least aren't using their range of motion with intent. And you have good points that you don't want skiers to be in the backseat all day. Why not just aim to learn where center is, and learn to adjust your balance throughout the turn? Then we can all crack open a drink and start up the epicski party. 

post #288 of 314
Met, I stand by what I wrote. The sport existed long before plastic boots and high cuffs existed. Leaning against the boot tongues, spines, or any other part of the cuff as a balance aid is not where balance is found. I suspect those who believe otherwise have misunderstood the role of the boot cuff. It transfers force to the ski but not so we can camp against the cuffs. Do some find stability there? Yes, but leaning against a wall offers the same sense of stability. Dynamic balance is not that stable. It is constantly shifting and changing. The term quicksilver has been used to describe how balancing feels. The better your balance skills, the less you need to rely on leaning on anything.
post #289 of 314
As this relates to Dave, his driving against the tongues produced poor balance and even though it offered some stability, the price was burning out his quads.
post #290 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Met, I stand by what I wrote. The sport existed long before plastic boots and high cuffs existed. Leaning against the boot tongues, spines, or any other part of the cuff as a balance aid is not where balance is found. I suspect those who believe otherwise have misunderstood the role of the boot cuff. It transfers force to the ski but not so we can camp against the cuffs. Do some find stability there? Yes, but leaning against a wall offers the same sense of stability. Dynamic balance is not that stable. It is constantly shifting and changing. The term quicksilver has been used to describe how balancing feels. The better your balance skills, the less you need to rely on leaning on anything.

 

I agree with what you say, jasp. However, it feels like I am "camped out on my boot tongues" all the time.  I don't think this is a problem.  Let me explain.

 

Let's say your boot cuffs have 14 degrees of forward lean (aggressive), and you do not have heel lifts inside (that would be me).  You stand around down near the lodge with your shin centered in the cuff.  This is not a 90 degree angle between your shin and your foot; it's an 76 degree angle while you are at rest.  Your knee is out over your boot toes.  Or more.  

 

You do what you can to relax; it's a long wait till you can get on the lift.  You lean against the tongue and balance/hover the rest of your body up over the knee, out there in front.  It's what you have to do while standing around.  You don't faceplant while standing around because your skis are long.  You are camped out on the tongue of the boot, using the front of the cuff and the fronts of the skis as a balance aid.  No big deal; you are standing around.

 

Now you go ski.  What happens then?  You shift your hips up and down, move your feet fore and aft, flex and open your knees, flex and open your hips, adjust your torso more upright or more tilted forward.  You tip your legs left and right, you angulate and inclinate and topple into the turns and ski into counter and pat your head and rub your tummy.  You do not lean on the boot cuff for balance because you are in constant motion adjusting to continuously changing turn forces and snow issues.  

 

BUT ... to avoid being against the backs of the cuffs throughout all this dynamic movement you cannot relax and allow your ankles to retreat to a nice familiar angle of 90 degrees or anything near it.  The boot won't allow it; you have to maintain an angle of 76 degrees while the snow is pressing up through your foot and ankle.  So you flex forward at the ankle enough to maintain that 76 degrees between your shin and foot the whole time you are skiing.  You maintain this angle while the forces are pressing up on you from below and when you are floating through transition.  This requires continuous support from the muscles in your lower leg that hold your ankle at that unnatural angle while the pressures come and go.  


Because of the unfamiliarity and aggressiveness of the ankle angle you must maintain, and the necessity of flexing muscles continuously to hold onto that angle, you feel like you are camping out on the tongue of the boot while skiing instead of standing in your boots in a normal way.  I think of this as "dorsiflexing."  I do not think of it as leaning against a wall for support.  If I didn't dorsiflex continuously, I would be camped out on the back of the cuff.      

 

This has been my experience.  

 

For a new skier in rental boots with a gentler amount of forward lean, might there also be a sense of "dorsiflexing" (or flexing forward in an unfamiliar way) involved in maintaining an appropriate shin-foot angle inside the boot?  MIght it feel like "leaning against the boot tongue" to the new skier because it's so unfamilliar?  Might that feeling and description be productive and good for some skiers because that's what it takes to keep the shin off the back of the cuff? 


Edited by LiquidFeet - 5/27/13 at 7:14am
post #291 of 314

Whoops.  Forgot to mention in that post above something important that might bother people.  The heels of the feet stay solidly connected to the footbeds with body weight on them to avoid levering the tips.  I'm going to go enjoy Memorial Day now.  

post #292 of 314

LQ, the post you quoted included so much more than what you highlighted. To be fair maybe I needed to word the parts you didn't highlight stronger. The shell is analogous to the suspension of a car and it is what supports us. The cuff is analogous to the steering system and by adding force (we feel it as pressure against the cuff) we can change how the skis interact with the snow. But to be clear the role of weight bearing and support is done by the soles of the feet. Thus the footbeds and boot soles become the primary place where the ski / snow interaction forces pass since the force vector is mostly parallel to the tibial shaft. That doesn't mean we don't end up with some cuff pressure but it is incidental to the activity. For example standing still most skiers get a bit lazy and drop onto the tongues by relaxing the hammies, calves, and soles of their feet. Myself I make it a point to avoid that habit and instead strive to keep cuff pressure mostly equal. When I walk the incidental cuff pressure shifts from the tongues, to the spines but my weight bearing is still being done through the soles of my feet not by levering against the cuffs. Nor am I leaning on either cuff for balance. I use my entire body to create a balanced stance and the same hold true for when I start skiing.

 

Which brings up the age old phrase about getting forward and exactly what that means. Strong tip pressure and levering against the tongues is a relic of the past when skis required that sort of stance. Today's skis are different and for the most part do not require that much tip pressure to turn. Remember the first few turn you did on a shaped ski? It was like someone added power steering to them. How about your first experience on rockered skis? I remember a bent tip feeling very much like rockered skis. Considering how much equipment has changes I question why we would hang onto archaic advice about needing to be levered so strongly forward. And in Dave's case that levering was so excessive that he was skiing a foot shorter than his natural height of 6"6". I remember asking if he would walk / run five miles that low. I also suggested if he did that he would have trouble standing up after doing so. In his case he has a built in advantage of being very tall and that makes the moment of inertia from his CoM to the ski so much longer than most of us. Considering his mass and long levers (but normal skis) there simply is no reason for him to use so much effort to create sufficient tip pressure and good ski performance.

 

So LF I have never seen you ski but I still am confident in advising you to rethink the habit of always leaning against the boot cuffs. Especially when you are standing still. All that does is reinforce the habit of camping on your tongues and excessive forward levering. That in turn inhibits equal access to the three skill pools since you are not balancing with your body. Which is exactly why I am so against the advice offered by EB to lever against the boot spines. It may occur incidentally but proper balance gives us the independence to use the cuff as a steering mechanism and allows the shell to do it's job of supporting us. To return to the car systems analogy for a moment, constantly pulling the steering wheel in one direction would produce one result. If that result did not match where you want the car to go, would you continue to pull the wheel the same way? Probably not. It's another example of the saying that doing the same thing and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.

post #293 of 314

Too much hanging on the cuffs means you are supporting yourself with the shin and heels, with very little if any support under the ball. This is bad for lateral balance.

 

I'm traveling now but a fun test would be to try the blind balancing test with ski boots on a bosu. First hanging on the cuffs, and then balancing on the sole. I suspect the balance will be much better in the latter case. Maybe to don't need to close your eyes to feel the difference.

post #294 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

I agree with what you say, jasp. However, it feels like I am "camped out on my boot tongues" all the time.  I don't think this is a problem.  Let me explain.

 

Let's say your boot cuffs have 14 degrees of forward lean (aggressive), and you do not have heel lifts inside (that would be me).  You stand around down near the lodge with your shin centered in the cuff.  This is not a 90 degree angle between your shin and your foot; it's an 76 degree angle while you are at rest.  Your knee is out over your boot toes.  Or more.  

 

You do what you can to relax; it's a long wait till you can get on the lift.  You lean against the tongue and balance/hover the rest of your body up over the knee, out there in front.  It's what you have to do while standing around.  You don't faceplant while standing around because your skis are long.  You are camped out on the tongue of the boot, using the front of the cuff and the fronts of the skis as a balance aid.  No big deal; you are standing around.

 

Now you go ski.  What happens then?  You shift your hips up and down, move your feet fore and aft, flex and open your knees, flex and open your hips, adjust your torso more upright or more tilted forward.  You tip your legs left and right, you angulate and inclinate and topple into the turns and ski into counter and pat your head and rub your tummy.  You do not lean on the boot cuff for balance because you are in constant motion adjusting to continuously changing turn forces and snow issues.  

 

BUT ... to avoid being against the backs of the cuffs throughout all this dynamic movement you cannot relax and allow your ankles to retreat to a nice familiar angle of 90 degrees or anything near it.  The boot won't allow it; you have to maintain an angle of 76 degrees while the snow is pressing up through your foot and ankle.  So you flex forward at the ankle enough to maintain that 76 degrees between your shin and foot the whole time you are skiing.  You maintain this angle while the forces are pressing up on you from below and when you are floating through transition.  This requires continuous support from the muscles in your lower leg that hold your ankle at that unnatural angle while the pressures come and go.  


Because of the unfamiliarity and aggressiveness of the ankle angle you must maintain, and the necessity of flexing muscles continuously to hold onto that angle, you feel like you are camping out on the tongue of the boot while skiing instead of standing in your boots in a normal way.  I think of this as "dorsiflexing."  I do not think of it as leaning against a wall for support.  If I didn't dorsiflex continuously, I would be camped out on the back of the cuff.      

 

This has been my experience.  

 

For a new skier in rental boots with a gentler amount of forward lean, might there also be a sense of "dorsiflexing" (or flexing forward in an unfamiliar way) involved in maintaining an appropriate shin-foot angle inside the boot?  MIght it feel like "leaning against the boot tongue" to the new skier because it's so unfamilliar?  Might that feeling and description be productive and good for some skiers because that's what it takes to keep the shin off the back of the cuff? 

 

Unless one is Bode or has specific reason, being out beyond boot toes is too much forward lean.

When you "camp out"  on the tongues without skis on do you go over the front and have to save yourself from face planting?

Maybe it's just  description thing. It's always hard to tell.

post #295 of 314

Gee, I thought I clarified that I'm not talking about levering the tips, just keeping the shins at the angle required by the boot cuffs.  If the heels of the feet are weight-bearing, as I said, and the shins are angled to match the forward lean of the cuffs, seems like it should be clear that weight is also on the balls of the feet.  So heels and balls are both weighted.  

 

No continuous levering while skiing, guys.  The heel of the foot needs to be lightened to lever the tips.

post #296 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

I agree with what you say, jasp. However, it feels like I am "camped out on my boot tongues" all the time.  I don't think this is a problem.  Let me explain.

 

 

You do what you can to relax; it's a long wait till you can get on the lift.  You lean against the tongue and balance/hover the rest of your body up over the knee, out there in front.  It's what you have to do while standing around.  You don't faceplant while standing around because your skis are long.  You are camped out on the tongue of the boot, using the front of the cuff and the fronts of the skis as a balance aid.  No big deal; you are standing around.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Gee, I thought I clarified that I'm not talking about levering the tips, just keeping the shins at the angle required by the boot cuffs.  If the heels of the feet are weight-bearing, as I said, and the shins are angled to match the forward lean of the cuffs, seems like it should be clear that weight is also on the balls of the feet.  So heels and balls are both weighted.  

 

No continuous levering while skiing, guys.  The heel of the foot needs to be lightened to lever the tips.

Hmmm. It took me a while to edit my last post and it looks like we cross posted LF. My impression is you do not seem to share my opinion about seemingly unrelated activities bleeding over into our skiing. If you camp on and lean against the tongues while stopped, chances are you do the same while skiing because it feels familiar and comfort is found in the familiar. Establish a new normal where you stay cuff neutral when stopped. That makes it easier to commit that cuff neutral stance to automaticity and thus not have to focus on a different stance when stopped and when skiing. BTW, I can lever the tips without raising my heels and I am sure other here can do the same...

post #297 of 314

OK, I'll try both suggestions - levering the tips while weighting the tails along with the shovels, and standing around with my ankles at 76 degrees without resting on the cuffs ... next season! 

 

Gotta go mow the rest of the lawn.

post #298 of 314

Don't lever anything when in neutral, then selectively do so as sparingly as possible when the turn forces build. Some levering may occur but more as a result than as an objective. It will open up a wonderful door to better balance throughout all of your turns.


Edited by justanotherskipro - 5/27/13 at 8:05pm
post #299 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Gee, I thought I clarified that I'm not talking about levering the tips, just keeping the shins at the angle required by the boot cuffs.  If the heels of the feet are weight-bearing, as I said, and the shins are angled to match the forward lean of the cuffs, seems like it should be clear that weight is also on the balls of the feet.  So heels and balls are both weighted.  

 

No continuous levering while skiing, guys.  The heel of the foot needs to be lightened to lever the tips.

Sorry LF, but I got the impression that you are resting against the cuffs and bear weight under the heels, didn't see you mention ball pressure. Nothing really wrong with it btw, I often do it while resting on transports etc, but not optimal for performance.

post #300 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Sorry LF, but I got the impression that you are resting against the cuffs and bear weight under the heels, didn't see you mention ball pressure. Nothing really wrong with it btw, I often do it while resting on transports etc, but not optimal for performance.

 

I didn't mention ball-of-foot pressure.  I should have addressed foot sole pressure from the start so people wouldn't misread what I was saying.  Oh well.  

 

Keeping the whole foot weighted, with the shin forward to match boot cuff angle while skiing -- that was what I was addressing.  It takes some muscular action to sustain that shin-foot angle in boots with noticeable forward lean.  It doesn't come naturally.  Perhaps people who have been skiing 40 years don't ever think about it, but I still do have to think about it.  

 

And I think my students (lower level skiers, adults mostly) need to think about it too, even though their boots (if rental) are not very aggressive in forward lean.  Perhaps they don't need to think about it, and I should stop talking about it in lessons.  I'm open to that possibility.  

 

I am not suggesting leaning on the tongues during all parts of a turn and thus levering the tips.  It has been my experience that keeping the heel down and maintaining body weight on it as well as on the BOF deletes the tip-levering.  I learned that from Matt Boyd in a technical talk one afternoon, but perhaps I got it wrong.  Must go out and see, next December.  I've even learned from another thread this spring that "falling leaf" is being done the exact opposite of what I've been shown and have been teaching.  I'm used to leaning forward at ankles or pulling feet back to get the tips to seek the fall line.  But now I learn that I should be leaning back to focus body weight over the foot's heel and thus the tails of the skis to get tips to seek the fall line!   What a shock that was.  There's still so much to learn about using the bottom of the foot....  

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