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Edge sharpen without waxing? - Page 2

post #31 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

Wasn't overlapped. Not sure why you think it was. The edge guide runs along on top of the tape, and not on the base. The fact that it is raised off the base by the thickness of the tape changes the angle that the guide hits the edge. Small as that might be, removing the tape later then changes the angle again, and not in a favorable way.

Sib,

i think you are looking at this wrong.  If you are doing your side edge, the fact the base is thicker with the tape, shouldn't change  the angle of the side edge angle.  If it did, each and every side edge guide would have to be the exact same thickness and they are not.

 

are you talking about when you use the base edge?

post #32 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

Sib,

i think you are looking at this wrong.  If you are doing your side edge, the fact the base is thicker with the tape, shouldn't change  the angle of the side edge angle.  If it did, each and every side edge guide would have to be the exact same thickness and they are not.

 

are you talking about when you use the base edge?

No he is right. The side edge angle is determined by relationship between the tool and the base of the ski. Change the base higher or lower than the actual base and you minutely change the that relationship.

 

but.........................., (ya know what but mean??? , it pretty much negates everything you have said previous to it)

 

Actual ski specific base tape is so freaking thin (a few mils at most), it makes no difference even to me, absolutely negligible, and you know I have been accused of being insane because I like a .7 over  a 1 degree base edge bevel.

 

But more side edge angle is almost always a good thing!icon14.gif

 

L&AirC you are right but for a different reason!!!hissyfit.gif

post #33 of 50

Actually, one edge of the guide runs flat along the base while the side that holds the file/stone is kept at a specific angle to that edge.  So long as the tape is the same thickness everywhere it's not a problem doing the side edges with or without tape.

 

But what about the base edges.  I decided to do my base edges after completely giving up on store-bought tunes.  No I had asked for a 0.5 base bevel, but when I sharpened my bases, because the edges were not sharp enough for my tastes, I noticed that my file was taking off a microscopic little of the base in a few spots (eventually I will have to correct this base high condition).   I think tape would interfere with that process.

post #34 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Actually, one edge of the guide runs flat along the base while the side that holds the file/stone is kept at a specific angle to that edge.  So long as the tape is the same thickness everywhere it's not a problem doing the side edges with or without tape.

 

But what about the base edges.  I decided to do my base edges after completely giving up on store-bought tunes.  No I had asked for a 0.5 base bevel, but when I sharpened my bases, because the edges were not sharp enough for my tastes, I noticed that my file was taking off a microscopic little of the base in a few spots (eventually I will have to correct this base high condition).   I think tape would interfere with that process.

You only tape when doing side edges. It does not work with base beveling because as you said it changes the bevel angle and any discrepancy in base bevel makes a BIG difference in ski-ability.

 

The point is the tape changes the angle minutely , minimally compared to no tape when side edge beveling. . Of course one long strip of continuous tape (which is what MUST be applied) is going to give a consistent side edge bevel angel, provided the underlying base is flat  or continuously even.

 

How ever you want to explain it the side edge tool imparts it's published angle based on the glide plate being on a flat surface.

post #35 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

No he is right. The side edge angle is determined by relationship between the tool and the base of the ski. Change the base higher or lower than the actual base and you minutely change the that relationship.

 

Completely untrue. The thickness of the tape would just cause the guide to go higher to compensate for the extra thickness (how miniscule it is) not change the angle.  If you have a 4" long file on a 1 degree guide the angle will still be 1 degree whether you are 1/4" away from the guide or 3", the angle doesn't change.


Edited by huhh - 3/9/13 at 7:32pm
post #36 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhh View Post

Completely untrue. The thickness of the tape would just cause the guide to go higher to compensate for the extra thickness (how miniscule it is) not change the angle.  If you have a 4" long file on a 1 degree guide the angle will still be 1 degree whether you are 1/4" away from the guide or 3", the angle doesn't change.you are absolutly incorrect. The tape is on the ski not the file

We will have to agree to disagree. What happens when you put 10 strips of tape

 

The glide is angled up away from the base edge. it is no longer parellel to the base edge

 

 

the tool, is designed to work with  the glide parellel to the base edge as you increase the height of the base it changes the angle of the guide to the base edge and therefore the file no longer meets the side edge at the same angle. You are assuming the guide foot would stay totally parallel to the base but just higher off the base and i I am not.

post #37 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

We will have to agree to disagree. What happens when you put 10 strips of tape

 

The glide is angled up away from the base edge. it is no longer parellel to the base edge

 

 

the tool, is designed to work with  the glide parellel to the base edge as you increase the height of the base it changes the angle of the guide to the base edge and therefore the file no longer meets the side edge at the same angle. You are assuming the guide foot would stay totally parallel to the base but just higher off the base and i I am not.

 

When you increase the height with tape the file will no longer touch the edge at all,  so you must move it further from the edge. The guide is a constant.  Basic Algebra... rolleyes.gif


Edited by huhh - 3/9/13 at 10:33pm
post #38 of 50

Apparently A-man has a different guide than some of us have.  My guides

 

IMG_0199.jpg

 

have a flat surface that rides on the base of my ski, so that the plane of that surface is at the same angle as the plane of the ski base.  As long as that plane is parallel to the ski base (doesn't have to be touching it), the edge angle will be properly set.  It makes no difference whether the plane of the base is riding on a taped surface or not, so long as the height of that taped surface is increased the same amount near the edge and near the middle of the ski.

Guide surface parallel to top of tape.

Top of tape parallel to base of ski.

Therefore guide surface parallel to base of ski

QED

(I learned that in math class  biggrin.gif)

 

What kind of side edge guide do you use A-man?

post #39 of 50

I've been thinking about this a bit.  I'm trying to think of an easy experiment to prove one way or the other.  I think the problem is once you leave 90*, the height of the tape does matter.  What made me realize this was looking at my compound miter saw.  If I swivel the base to 0* and make a cut, no matter how thick the wood is, or if I put a block of wood behind it, it is 90*.  If I change the angle to 3* and make a cut, then slide the same piece of wood out an inch, it still makes a 3* cut, but it is starting at a different point.

 

Sibhusky and A-Man are correct, but as noted, the point is mute as the tape is so thin.  There are more variations available in the pressure and grip from your hand than the tape.

post #40 of 50

Think again.  The cut at the edge with the file guide raised still always starts at the edge and still always is at 3 degrees.   The guide is positioned horizontally so that the file touches the edge.  The plane of the guide against tape or against base keeps the angle at 3 degrees.  You have file touching  your edge at 3 degrees in either case.

post #41 of 50
I suspect ghost is right on this. Lac's point only applies, i think, if you don't let the guide drift up towards the ceiling a hair as the tape gets thicker. But of course you would. I further suspect that in practice very thin smooth slippery tape, well applied, would have a negligible effect, and that thick rough tape WOULD start to have an effect pretty quickly, if only because it's too malleable and prone to inconsistencies to provide a really solid reference substrate for the glide plate.
post #42 of 50
FWIW, I've come around to thinking that, although the edge is now being hit with a different part of the file or stone, that the angle hasn't changed. Guess I should have said something about ten posts ago.. Still a heck of a lot of tape, even with some reuse. I'll have to check the price per foot of this thin stuff.
post #43 of 50
I believe the quality of the edge is much more important than the exact angle.
To get a high quality edge using tools that aren't exactly high precision I do thing a bit differently.
When I returned my used Kastles I filed at 3.5 and 0.5 degrees using a multituner for sides and Swix guide for base.
I then honed and polished at 3 and 0.75.
This approach means the diamond stones (100, 200, 400, 800, and 1500) work the carving edge more than the rest of the edge.
The same thing is done when sharpening a razor....you step up the angle as you use finer stones to get an edge you can shave with.
When I'm done I make one light pass with a gummi block so I don't cut myself when handling the skis.
If you examine your finished edge at 25x magnification you will see what I mean about a high quality edge.
A high quality edge will last longer.
Good machinists know that honing a cutting tool after sharpening will make it cut longer before resharpening.
post #44 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 provided the underlying base is flat  or continuously even.

 

How ever you want to explain it the side edge tool imparts it's published angle based on the glide plate being on a flat surface.

 

 

How do you figure this is in your words completely untrue. this is what I said.

 

Huhh, you are also assuming that the gap created at the edge of the tape directly over the base edge has no effect on the stability of the tool. And you are correct with one thickness of tape and the tape directly applied adjacent to the base edge provided the base is flat there is no difference.

 

But if the base is convex or concave you are not going to get the published angle.

post #45 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

 

 

How do you figure this is in your words completely untrue. this is what I said.

 

Huhh, you are also assuming that the gap created at the edge of the tape directly over the base edge has no effect on the stability of the tool. And you are correct with one thickness of tape and the tape directly applied adjacent to the base edge provided the base is flat there is no difference.

 

But if the base is convex or concave you are not going to get the published angle.


The gap doesn't effect stability if you put it right before the edge, it also doesn't matter if the base is concave or convex because that will effect the angle whether or not you put tape on the base.  Which is pretty irrelevant to what is being discussed.

 

We're arguing that if you put tape on the base will it effect the angle of the file.  The Answer is NO.


Edited by huhh - 3/10/13 at 1:29pm
post #46 of 50

   All right guys...I've been circling this thread for quite awhile, now...in the meantime, I've been poring over the various cobwebbed tomes in my laboratory, most of which written by tuning wizards. 

I don't find ANY reference to the idea that base tape changes the imparted bevel to any appreciable level. WC techs use it--so do I (and so do many of you). I think we're "good to go" as far as usage of tape is concerned.

 

   Ahem....having said that, what if, instead of  potentially increasing the bevel slightly, it potentially decreases it?? biggrin.gif

 

   P.s. Think about it...

 

    zenny


Edited by zentune - 3/10/13 at 8:55pm
post #47 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmpotash View Post

Can you sharpen the side edges with diamond stone tools without re-waxing or does that leave metal particles in the wax?

Wow, didn't read all the post here, but yes you can sharpen the edges without waxing. In fact you tune the edges before you wax, after you have made sure the bases are flat.

 

IMO some people make way to much out of this.

 

I have never used that tape in the 12+ years I have been tuning my own and friends skis.

 

I use the 100 grit diamond stone to clean up my 3 degree side edge after every ski day. 3 or 4 times up/down the edge, dry with a old towel and do the other edge.

 

Takes about 5 minutes or less to do both skis.

 

I may take the flat file on the 1 degree base guide to knock down any high spot if I think it needs it. Do not put pressure on the base file, just let it glide down the surface. Your only taking of the high spots not setting the base bevel.

 

This is not rocket science. If your starting out doing this, take baby steps.

 

 

Sorry, Pro's.

post #48 of 50

Jumping into this thread a bit late. I was wondering whatever happened to all those pocket edge sharpening gadgets that used to be common? They were handy to deburr an edge shot on the hill. 

post #49 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by asp125 View Post

Jumping into this thread a bit late. I was wondering whatever happened to all those pocket edge sharpening gadgets that used to be common? They were handy to deburr an edge shot on the hill. 

They are still around, may be Tognar tools has them. But if the nick is that big to feel and effects the way the ski tracks, I'm not sure that will fix it.

 

When I go on trips, I just bring my steel edge guide, clamp and moonflex stone.

post #50 of 50

I've used their (Tognar) multi edge tuner, but have always felt that using it too often would result in a step between the edge and base if you didn't run a flat file across it first. Kind of like:  -_____- 

 

Would that give you an inaccurate base bevel angle? Is that even a problem?


Edited by asp125 - 3/11/13 at 12:26pm
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