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Binding for Skiing Switch?

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 

Sorry if this is a repetitive question, posted in the wrong place, or cross posted; I'm a newbie. Please feel free to clarify the proper protocol.

 

Is there a binding on the market designed for skiing switch that will release the toe while skiing switch the same way a normal binding releases allowing forward movement from the heal? If not, does any one have any recommendations for a binding with the safest kind of release when you catch a tail traveling backwards? 

 

Thanks.

post #2 of 27
Thread Starter 

This is a cross post from Freeskier. Sorry, just think people here have more expertise. I was responding to someone who said it's not really the binding, just the DIN that's important. I responded by saying what I've come to believe about bindings by doing online research. I would appreciate it if people could look at my statements and correct any misconceptions I have! 

 

Previous post: 


Okay, sorry guys, but now I'm confused. As I understood it bindings are designed to release in particular directions based on forward and lateral movements typically/statistically experienced in recreational skiing and racing, as well as being based on human anatomy. They don't release equally in 360 degrees or equally from the heel or toe, which is why Knee Bindings thinks they have something unique for lateral release. 

I have owned a pair of Tyrolias that had rotational heel release and just bought a new pair of Tyrolia Peak 12 T.H.s with the same feature and I also bought a pair of Salomon Z12s which supposedly have some kind of backwards falling release from the heel. I'm not sure if either of these will do what I want, which is to release my boots when my tails get stuck while skiing switch. I've read that someone has an upward toe release, but I'm not sure who. I'm more interested in safety than unintended release, being old enough not to be doing first descents in Alaska or winning any races. 

Intuitively, it just seems to me that a binding designed for going forward is gonna be different than one designed for going backwards. For example, if you pull hard enough on the back of your boot it will release at the heel, but I don't think that pulling upwards on the toe is going to do anything no matter what the DIN is set at. 

Please feel free to correct any misconceptions, I don't know much about equipment; I've just been trying to think through it logically from what I've been reading. 

Thanks in advance.

post #3 of 27

Look PX 12 and 14 have upward toe release. So do many bindings. just have to find out by reading their stuff or go to a shop with lots of them and check it out. Not sure there's anything new going on with the Salomon Z series, not in the heel anyway. That is a crummy binding.

post #4 of 27

OP should be looking at ski that will not "catch a tail" instead of some miracle binding for skiing switch.

post #5 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post

OP should be looking at ski that will not "catch a tail" instead of some miracle binding for skiing switch.

Just for discussion's sake, if a binding's function is to prevent injuries and bindings are designed for forward skiing what's the problem with wanting one that's safer for skiing switch? I had one person tell me to just change technique to prevent the type of fall I'm trying to release from, but that's kinda crazy. It's like telling Lindsey that she should change her technique so as not to get hurt while racing, that's what bindings are suppose to do! I don't think there's a ski designed to prevent a tail from digging in in all situations. We all make mistakes and we all fall. 

post #6 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by athe0007 View Post

Just for discussion's sake, if a binding's function is to prevent injuries and bindings are designed for forward skiing what's the problem with wanting one that's safer for skiing switch? I had one person tell me to just change technique to prevent the type of fall I'm trying to release from, but that's kinda crazy. It's like telling Lindsey that she should change her technique so as not to get hurt while racing, that's what bindings are suppose to do! I don't think there's a ski designed to prevent a tail from digging in in all situations. We all make mistakes and we all fall. 


the biggest problem in normal skiing is the backwards twisting fall. If you are skiing switch properly you should still be in the front of your boot. Te situation you describe still puts you in a backwards twisting fall. So you run in to the EXACT same issue as you would normally.

 

And have you heard of twin tip ski's?

 

Anyway...you're biggest problem seems to be lack of a twin, and poor technique.

post #7 of 27
Just get some Kneebindings and mount them backward!
post #8 of 27

If you're skiing switch on a true twin-tip, you're not going to bury a tail. Ever. You don't bury your tips going forward, so you likewise can't bury a twin-tip going backward. If you do you're doing something terribly wrong, like landing a jump switch with your skis 45 degrees to the hill, tails down. In that case the heels will release in their normal mode anyway.

 

I've skied backward on flat-tailed skis without burying a tail. I usually spend three or four runs each ski day doing ballet on short skis with a slight upturn on the tail, not even true twin-tips. Never had any problems with tripping over my tails.

post #9 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post

Just get some Kneebindings and mount them backward!

So you can pack one pair on your back and "switch" then when you want to ski forward? wink.gif

post #10 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morrison Claystone View Post

If you're skiing switch on a true twin-tip, you're not going to bury a tail. Ever. You don't bury your tips going forward, so you likewise can't bury a twin-tip going backward. If you do you're doing something terribly wrong, like landing a jump switch with your skis 45 degrees to the hill, tails down. In that case the heels will release in their normal mode anyway.

 

I've skied backward on flat-tailed skis without burying a tail. I usually spend three or four runs each ski day doing ballet on short skis with a slight upturn on the tail, not even true twin-tips. Never had any problems with tripping over my tails.

I've buried tips going forward in curd, buried edges in crud, and caught a tips on a moguls. I don't think all problems can be solved with technique. As I said we all make mistakes and the more risks you take the more you'll make.  I've also skied switch on skis with flat tails, that's how I started skiing switch. Are you doing ballet on blacks?

post #11 of 27
Thread Starter 

BTW, I know I've read posts by other people who've had the same kind of fall: skiing switch and going straight over backwards (without twisting) and whacking the back of their head. If this has happened to you and you didn't catch a tip how did it happen? Chicken head?

post #12 of 27
Thread Starter 

Okay, So here's the first video I've found about the type of fall I'm trying to describe except this one's pond skimming, but the fall is basically the same: straight over backwards hitting your head. So what might cause this on a normal slope? Maybe hitting a pile of crud and having too much weight on your tails or doing on something steep enough that a little drop will throw you forward over your tails. As I remember this has happened to me when I was more vertical, not when I have most of my weight over my tips. Any thoughts would be helpful or if you know of any other videos I would be most thankful if you'd share them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plTIDcZGa_E

post #13 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by athe0007 View Post

BTW, I know I've read posts by other people who've had the same kind of fall: skiing switch and going straight over backwards (without twisting) and whacking the back of their head. If this has happened to you and you didn't catch a tip how did it happen? Chicken head?

 

The most likely fall switch is catching an edge (usually the inside) in your turn transition. It's pretty tough to do a switch 'pearl' as you describe... maybe with skis with absolutely no tail rise, yeah, that makes sense... but in the end, you only have to maintain pressure on the front cuff of the boot to avoid the type of fall shown in your vid.

post #14 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

 

The most likely fall switch is catching an edge (usually the inside) in your turn transition. It's pretty tough to do a switch 'pearl' as you describe... maybe with skis with absolutely no tail rise, yeah, that makes sense... but in the end, you only have to maintain pressure on the front cuff of the boot to avoid the type of fall shown in your vid.

Do you think there is some terrain feature (bump or drop)  that move you off the front cuff putting your weight too far back? I have gone over my tips once on a really steep run (actually the skis were too soft and the tips gave way). I know when I was experimenting with short skis that they could actually slip out from under you if you lean too far back (and you land on your butt). The times I've had the "pearl" happen I just going straight (with a fair amount of speed) not turning. Turning always throws me sideways if I catch and I rarely catch edges turning switch because my tails are detuned almost halfway to the boot (and I can usually recover), if I fall turning it's usually because I've just leaned too far into the turn. Thanks for your comment, it helps a lot. 

post #15 of 27

Still see you looking for a solution to your problem in the binding, and not the ski's. If you go straight over backwards then you're skiing switch incorrectly. Watch how good park skiers do it.
 

post #16 of 27

Wat ecimmortal sed ^^^^^  

 

0007, even when running straight, you'll be looking over a shoulder. For example, if you're looking over your right shoulder, you should be 'leading' with your right ski, i.e., your left ski will be forward... as a rule of thumb, look over your downhill shoulder. Like eci said above, watch some youtube switch skiing footie. For example:

 

http://www.trick-tips.com/skiing/how-to-ride-switch-on-skis

post #17 of 27

It also works exactly the same as ice skating. Watch some figure skating or some hockey defensemen, they both skate backwards a lot. 

post #18 of 27
Thread Starter 

Thanks guys for all the suggestions, but I think I've got it now. So, I believe this is just a Center of Gravity (CoG)

issue. We don't see the same kind of falls forward because most binding mounts are back of CRS so you have

a lot of tip in front of you. Even if you lean completely over your tips you don't have enough leverage to

displace them. If you're skiing switch most likely your mount is back of CRS so you have far less tail

supporting you and it takes much less to push you over your tails. The steeper the slope the easier it is, or

the more erect your stance the less your CoG is supported by your skis. Any kind of bump or irregularity that

might  throw you more over your tails puts you at risk for this type of fall, especially if the slope is steep. I don't

think this is a style issue, because all of the vids have people with their CoG way over their tips. I just

tend to like being erect and ski switch on steeper slopes. The moral is that for switch it's best to have

a closer to center mount and to be sure to keep your CoG over your tips when skiing switch. The binding problem

is still the same: if you go over your tips with enough force your bindings will release. If you go over your

tails with the same force they won't, however even if they did release I think you'd probably still whack your

head.

Counter arguments?

 

 

post #19 of 27

No... 

post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by athe0007 View Post

Thanks guys for all the suggestions, but I think I've got it now. So, I believe this is just a Center of Gravity (CoG)

issue. We don't see the same kind of falls forward because most binding mounts are back of CRS so you have

a lot of tip in front of you. Even if you lean completely over your tips you don't have enough leverage to

displace them. If you're skiing switch most likely your mount is back of CRS so you have far less tail

supporting you and it takes much less to push you over your tails. The steeper the slope the easier it is, or

the more erect your stance the less your CoG is supported by your skis. Any kind of bump or irregularity that

might  throw you more over your tails puts you at risk for this type of fall, especially if the slope is steep. I don't

think this is a style issue, because all of the vids have people with their CoG way over their tips. I just

tend to like being erect and ski switch on steeper slopes. The moral is that for switch it's best to have

a closer to center mount and to be sure to keep your CoG over your tips when skiing switch. The binding problem

is still the same: if you go over your tips with enough force your bindings will release. If you go over your

tails with the same force they won't, however even if they did release I think you'd probably still whack your

head.

Counter arguments?

 

 


You're way off, because as been stated numerous times.....You're doing it WRONG.

 

You should never be standing straight up and down, you should still be pressuring the front of your boots with you legs scissored slightly depending on the direction of your turn.

post #21 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post


You're way off, because as been stated numerous times.....You're doing it WRONG.

 

You should never be standing straight up and down, you should still be pressuring the front of your boots with you legs scissored slightly depending on the direction of your turn.

 

"WRONG?" I thought this was FREE style?  wink.gif  So what was incorrect about my analysis? The next thing you'll be telling me is that my skis are too short, my bindings are too far forward, I have to use poles, I can't ski with my hands behind my back, and I'm wearing the wrong clothes. smile.gif

I like to push limits and so okay I found one. Thanks to you all I also figured out a couple of fixes: more center mounting and better postural anticipation.

Like I get that splitting your skis farther apart makes you more stable, that's how I started skiing switch four years ago, but I like the way I ski switch now better.

On a different note, is it still called "scissoring" or has someone come up  with a better term? 

 

post #22 of 27
Thread Starter 

BTW, I know you guys are right about scissoring and keep your shin up against the cuff. It's good advice for the conventional switch style when people are traveling and turning laterally across the fall line.

However, I don't think you can scissor when you're going straight down the fall line (or else you'll turn).  Park skiers have their tails and tips next to each other (or very close to) before takeoff and landing for slope style jumps that they're hitting straight on. At least that's what I see in the vids. 

 

Yes or no?

post #23 of 27

But they're still pressuring their cuffs... and it's pretty rare that anyone's not using some amount of tip lead. Notice they're looking over their shoulder and lining things up for the push off and starting their rotation? 

post #24 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

But they're still pressuring their cuffs... and it's pretty rare that anyone's not using some amount of tip lead. Notice they're looking over their shoulder and lining things up for the push off and starting their rotation? 

 

Agreed. There is often some amount of tip lead, but not much more than a couple of inches...and if you look carefully some of these are a little off the fall line. Certainly, not as much as you would use between switch turns.

 

I also agree that they're most often looking over their shoulder, you have to get the jump and landing into your mind. People don't jump blind. Funny story, just the other day some guy gave me a hard time because I jumped (forward) a ridge and slowed own him and his two buddies who were doing coordinated turns up slope of me. Like I'm going take my eyes off the takeoff to look up hill. There's a reason the downhill skier has the right of way. 

 

87% of the time I'm looking over my shoulder skiing switch, but sometime when it's steep and I know it's clear downhill I'll look down at my skis (and just feel the turns). Also, I spend a fair amount of time scanning uphill for people coming down. Can't trust anyone these days. 

post #25 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by athe0007 View Post
. Like I'm going take my eyes off the takeoff to look up hill. There's a reason the downhill skier has the right of way. 

 

Well, not quite that simple... and the downhill skier doesn't have the right of way if they're merging onto another slope. Anyhow... err on the side of caution... collisions are serious stuff. I've seen a couple that have been catastrophic, and no doubt, someone thought they were 'right', but it didn't matter.

post #26 of 27
Thread Starter 

Oh yeah, when I'm skiing forward I'm looking downhill 98% of the time. :-)

post #27 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

 

Well, not quite that simple... and the downhill skier doesn't have the right of way if they're merging onto another slope. Anyhow... err on the side of caution... collisions are serious stuff. I've seen a couple that have been catastrophic, and no doubt, someone thought they were 'right', but it didn't matter.

 

Yep, I know, but it was one run and if anyone was merging it was them. These guys we good enough to avoid me and I turned in mid air and went back down immediately anyway. He was just irritated that I threw them off their rhythm. I'm a very cautious skier when it comes to other people. I don't ski switch when it's crowded. I wait for people to go by so don't have to compete for space. Normally, I ski with my family on weekends when it's busy and they just do blues anyway. It's hard to do anything too fancy on family days. There are very few people on weekdays where I ski and it's pretty much wide open.  

The danger as I see it is people who are uphill and not in control (I can't be look'n uphill all the time). Control meaning both intermediates beyond their ability and yahoos who think they're in control at 45 mph but don't realize they can't turn or stop in time. 

 

I haven't come close to running into anyone myself in years, although my kids have been clipped by snowboards twice each when they used to ski greens more often. The closest I've come to hitting anyone was a tiny tot who came down a black in a straight line snow plowing at 20 mph. I 'd looked up hill and it was clear when I started and then whoa! Outta nowhere little snowplower!

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