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Help steer me towards light 5 dimension skis? - Page 3

post #61 of 72

davluri, companies do not know how to do anything.  If the experienced guys leave to start an indie, and the establishec brand replaces them with kids, then which company knows what they are doing?

 

I do think it is true that it takes more than a good idea to make a good ski, as evidenced by the poor product the first couple of years at some (not all) indies, and by the saga a few years back of a member here building skis in a college lab.

post #62 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post


This and the referenced content are slip and jive logic. I'd reply, then why not buy the Elan or Fischer, or  the French or Spanish Rossi, or Chamonix Dynastar, or German Volkl, or American Praxis? You'd know who takes responsibility and what their ski's heritage is.  Selecting from manufacturers with their own engineers and designers is still possible and offers a good number of companies to choose from.  I'm pretty sure I could ski another 5 decades and have no problem not owning 4Frnt, Nordica, Liberty, DPS, Icelantic, White Dot.... I have no trouble defining criteria for who makes a ski, or what made in America (or Germany, or France) means.

 

DPS made in China? Whoa! really Msolsen?

Don't follow how this is "slip and jive" logic. A company such as 4FRNT designs its own skis, to its own parameters. These designs differ from what Elan offers. So I know who makes the ski (Elan), and I know where the design comes from (4FRNT). Since I have experience with both companies, I feel comfortable. That fact that I could chose a ski made by a single company from design to shipping doesn't seem to bear on the logic behind choosing a ski designed by one company and made by another, unless you could prove that somehow a designer in one place and a maker in another produces an inferior ski. But all you have is a sense of distrust.

 

In fact, however, I like the idea of indies, who often come up with very innovative designs, not making their own skis out of someone's garage or a rented warehouse. Elan or Neversummer have a long track record of making other people's skis to spec. I know they'll do a good job. New indies often cannot produce strong QC for years. Moreover, even established indies may find it more economical to outsource the manufacturing. Like DPS (or majors like Volkl) in China. Seriously, how is this any different from buying a Ford that's actually made in Yrp or Asia by a collaborating manufacturer? Or a Phillips DVD player that's made in Malaysia? Conversely, American car makers produced crap for years, some might say they still do, sometimes, and each one was designed and made by its own company right here in the good ol US of A. And there was a stretch where Toyota's most reliable products were being made in the U.S.or elsewhere; the all Japanese models were, ah, problematic. So why does making something entirely in one place help us confident about quality? th_dunno-1[1].gif

post #63 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post

Don't follow how this is "slip and jive" logic. A company such as 4FRNT designs its own skis, to its own parameters. These designs differ from what Elan offers. So I know who makes the ski (Elan), and I know where the design comes from (4FRNT). Since I have experience with both companies, I feel comfortable. That fact that I could chose a ski made by a single company from design to shipping doesn't seem to bear on the logic behind choosing a ski designed by one company and made by another, unless you could prove that somehow a designer in one place and a maker in another produces an inferior ski. But all you have is a sense of distrust.

 

In fact, however, I like the idea of indies, who often come up with very innovative designs, not making their own skis out of someone's garage or a rented warehouse. Elan or Neversummer have a long track record of making other people's skis to spec. I know they'll do a good job. New indies often cannot produce strong QC for years. Moreover, even established indies may find it more economical to outsource the manufacturing. Like DPS or Volkl in China. Seriously, how is this any different from buying a Ford that's actually made in Yrp or Asia by a collaborating manufacturer? Or a Phillips DVD player that's made in Malaysia? Conversely, American car makers produced crap for years, some might say they still do, mostly, and each one was designed and made by a its own company right here in the good ol US of A. So why does making something in one place help us confident about quality? th_dunno-1%5B1%5D.gif

 

This is right where it falls out for me. Maybe if the handful of major manufacturers were putting out 1000 different models of skis under their own name, would the counter-argument make sense. But obviously they don't. Ski preferences are almost like fingerprints- pretty much everybody has different ideas of what a good ski feels like on their feet. Some people want a light, playful quick to turn ski, others want a super stiff, minimal sidecut bomber to straightline down 50* chutes and launch cliffs. Having indy manufacturers making quality skis that fill in gaps in the major manufacturer's lines can't be anything but a good thing.

 

Saying that only the big manufacturers can design the skis "right" forgets the fact that everybody has a different definition of what "right" is. The S7 is a revolutionary ski, which is why almost everybody makes a 5 dimension ski now. But what if the S7 is too soft for you, or too stiff for you, or you want it a little narrower, or fatter, or longer, or shorter? Well, good news, Rossi makes what, 4 different S7 skis now? Choice is great! But again, that is 4 different skis while there are hundreds of other 5 dimension skis out there.

 

Getting back to the Meiers that started this thread, I haven't found anybody else, certainly not a major manufacturer, making 5 dimension skis as light a the Meiers (for less money, I bet the DPS Wailers in carbon are pretty damn light) and with anything close to that short of a turn radius, the two attributes that I think made the ski really stand out.  Its pretty damned ridiculous to say my experience of having these skis on my feet is bunk, and that I should just conform to one of the Rossis. I KNOW WHAT I LIKE, and its not like I was fondling them on a store rack and deciding that indy skis are teh bets evar.

 

The reality of today is that there are a like of ski companies, and a handful of really large production facilities. Thankfully, the dynamics appear to be a win/win. Ski companies can contract for manufacturing, get a consistent product, and enjoy the economies of scale that come with large scale manufacturing, even if they are only doing 1000 skis a year.  If the larger indy companies that currently contract out production were to do it in house, there is a very good chance that either costs would rise dramatically so that they can afford the factory equipment needed to make skis like the big boys (yet use this expensive equipment on much smaller runs of skis), or quality would sufferand more things are done by hand.  

 

If Indy skis were consistently more expensive than major manufacturers skis, I could kind of understand the argument, but in many cases, they are not. Sure, DPS charges an arm and a leg, but they are also the only game in town if you want a carbon fiber ski. Icelantic charges a slight premium over the mainstream market, but no so much that I haven't seen there stuff for sale at attractive prices. Lets not forget that their skis are made in the USA and have one of the best warranties in the biz, which I think are two solid reasons to justify the premium before even talking about the performance of the ski, which a lot of people love...

 

I don't see anybody making an S7 ripoff, sending it out to China to be stamped out of a factory, and then throwing a $1200 price tag on it.  At least those aren't the skis that get a lot of (positive) interest here or on Epicski.

 

Finally, I leave you with this- a ski "manufacturer" that I think we can all agree sucks.

 

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/176316-333-skis-review

post #64 of 72
Thread Starter 

Skied the Maestros for the first time today, and was really impressed. I am keeping these skis.

 

Conditions- Wolf Creek with 16" down, Untracked snow in many pockets for the whole day, with the heavier traffic areas turning to crud and speedbumps on cat tracks.

 

Very good flotation- Wolf has many sections of steep/bench/steep, and the ski was really able to stay up on the snow in the lower pitch sections.

 

Very, very, very smeary- The ski pivots like snowblades.  It was more buttery than the Meiers that started this thread, although the Meiers would come around in an arc rather than a smear faster (which makes sense with the 13M sidecut on the Meiers. I did wash out the tails a few times when I wasn't intending to, but I think that is just a matter of learning what the ski wants- both times I was trying to crank the ski into a tighter turn, and ended up washing the tails out and making it a REALLY tight turn. Excellent ski in steep, tight trees, I hit several lines with a lot more confidence knowing that if I screwed up, I could dump speed and come around tight.

 

Good in cut up powder turning to crud- It didn't get to full on crud today, but it got to the point where I'm used to having tip or tails grab if I wuss out and try to skid off speed with a non-5 point ski.

 

Good factory tune- Really surprised by this. The base structure looked pretty good when I got the skis, and I spent some time ironing in as much wax as I could get the bases to take.  Several runouts back to lifts at Wolf are notorious for requiring skating, yet for the first time ever, I managed to have enough momentum to not have to pole/skate. Several times I got on a cat track going pretty slow, got passes by somebody, then accellerated past them while on the same straight section. Seems the base structure as shipped is pretty good, which seems a pretty vast improvement over prior years.

 

Tip Dive- One of the few negatives is that a few times I sunk a tip enough for it to get grabbed. This isn't a normal thing for me at all. None of the times were enough to cause a fall or be anything other than momentary, but I was surprised that I could punch the tip in. I suspect a few things are causing this 1) I'm used to a ski a few inches longer and with a more substantial tip, and could definitely be throwing too much weight front, and 2) see below. 

 

Mounting position- I mounted the skis 1cm forward of the powder line, because the most important thing I wanted the ski to do was to have a fast smear for tight trees. I'm 6' 1" and 230 lbs according to the doctor visit this week.  This ski certainly doesn't need help in being fast to come around, so if I had it to do again, I would mount it on the powder line.  I'm going to ski it for a while and see if the tip dive thing works itself out.  With the mount point where it is, I'm not tailgunning, but I'm not cranked forward either, but I think a forward mount on this ski to make for a more nimble ski is not needed. 

 

Haven't really gotten any feel for hard-snow performance. Poor, poor me. ;)

post #65 of 72

Anachronism, have you ever skied Moments or On3ps? 

post #66 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiSafe View Post

Anachronism, have you ever skied Moments or On3ps? 


no sir.

post #67 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post


no sir.

 

You should definitely demo a pair of Moments. I have the Governor and Belafonte, and they're flat out phenomenal. The next pair of skis i buy is going to be the PB&J and i know they'll be amazing as well. All Moment skis are performance and durability orientated. They have good deals at the end of the season as well, usually just as good if not better than the big name manufacturers. And they're handmade in the USA. Try Em'

post #68 of 72

You think?  A company that can't make a ski, hasn't the knowledge or the financial wherewithall, somehow has the ability to design a ski, and better than the people who have been doing the engineering and designing and manufacturing for 60 years? again, no f'ing way!  They can take what you are calling original ideas and shove them where the sun don't shine.

 

Whereas an engineer might leave Volkl for Blizzard, I seriously doubt he'd leave Volkl for White Dot or Ski Logic or.... (pick from scores of them)

 

But one thing I know, young people who have skied maybe a few pairs of skis for a few years are definitely the ones to compare Atomic to Icelantic, ie.  rolleyes.gif

 

And the next time I hear about what "a ski wants" to do or to be or to act I'm going to choke laughing.

post #69 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

You think?  A company that can't make a ski, hasn't the knowledge or the financial wherewithall, somehow has the ability to design a ski, and better than the people who have been doing the engineering and designing and manufacturing for 60 years? again, no f'ing way!  They can take what you are calling original ideas and shove them where the sun don't shine.

 

Whereas an engineer might leave Volkl for Blizzard, I seriously doubt he'd leave Volkl for White Dot or Ski Logic or.... (pick from scores of them)

 

But one thing I know, young people who have skied maybe a few pairs of skis for a few years are definitely the ones to compare Atomic to Icelantic, ie.  rolleyes.gif

 

And the next time I hear about what "a ski wants" to do or to be or to act I'm going to choke laughing.

Davluri, a ski performs how it performs. Thats it. Rossignol has years and years of experience, and a lot their skis (other than the Experience series and Squad) are terribly mediocre. Many big name manufacturers are being outsourced to china (not rossi, but most others), where one little manufacturing flaw throws off the performance of the whole ski. 

 

A lot of the USA manufacturers hand make everything themselves, and inspect each ski before allowing it to be sold as their own. They're trying to build there reputation up in a industry that is loaded with historic, reputable names. They have to exceed expectations in order to grow. Moment is pulling ahead, every single ski they make is built to perform. and they ski better than most rossignols, salomons, and dynastars. and thats all that matters to me. Well durability too, and thats taken care of with the best american wood, UHMW sidewalls, thick durasurf 4001 bases, and edges hardened to 48 on the rockwell scale. Thats not hype, thats real. On top of that, im supporting american jobs. I couldnt be happier with buying skis from Moment.

 

Go ahead, bash me for my young age, that doesnt change my intelligence factor. I shop smart, Not biased. 

 

SIDENOTE: Look at cars. Ferrari and lamborghini have been making fast cars for years, even bugatti has. A small american company called SSC (Jarod Shelby not related to Carroll Shelby whatsoever) that started in 1998, set a world record a couple years back, dethroning the Bugatti Veyron as the fastest car in the world. Bugatti caught up, but that just shows what small american companies can do. Look at Koenigsegg and Pagani as well. not american but small, somewhat new car companies, all but leading the pack in performance. they beat out lamborghini  and ferrari, the 2 big name manufacturers. 

 

Most ski companies have thrown a lot away in order to follow the pack with these new light weight Rocker/Camber/Rocker skis, and they dont have the old engineers sticking around to keep all the old ideas. The new ones definitely aren't digging through the books looking at old news, their egos wont allow it. And Big name companies dont give a crap if they have a bad year, and sell mediocre skis for hundreds of dollars. Their reputation will still stay the same. 


Edited by SkiSafe - 3/10/13 at 12:03am
post #70 of 72

Davluri, If everyone thought like you, groundbreaking new companies would never be able to make a name for themselves. Thank heavens everybody doesn't have your mindset.. 

 

The moment deathwish, is a great example of new engineering ideas that really work, and work well. You should open your eyes a bit, and see the light. 


Edited by SkiSafe - 3/10/13 at 12:08am
post #71 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post

Skied the Maestros for the first time today, and was really impressed. I am keeping these skis.

Really glad to hear this!

 

 


Quote:

 

Good factory tune- Really surprised by this. 

Not me.  I've read plenty of disparaging comments about Bluehouse QC but I've been very impressed by the quality (relative to price) of both of the pairs I bought.  Construction wise, not on a par with my Kastles, Harts or Dynastar race room boards  but compare favorably to my Blizzards, K2s, Rossis, Atomics or Salomons.


Quote:

Mounting position- I mounted the skis 1cm forward of the powder line, because the most important thing I wanted the ski to do was to have a fast smear for tight trees. I'm 6' 1" and 230 lbs according to the doctor visit this week.  This ski certainly doesn't need help in being fast to come around, so if I had it to do again, I would mount it on the powder line.  I'm going to ski it for a while and see if the tip dive thing works itself out.  With the mount point where it is, I'm not tailgunning, but I'm not cranked forward either, but I think a forward mount on this ski to make for a more nimble ski is not needed. 

Not sure exactly where the powder line is on your skis but this sounds about right to me.

 

 

davluri, I really enjoy your posts on this board.  Free thinking with some attitude = fun, afaic.  Gotta say though that your comments in this thread make no sense to me.

post #72 of 72
Thread Starter 

So, I just got back from an extended weekend taking the Maestros on a road tour, skied Snowmass and 2 days at Sunlight in some pretty rough conditions.

 

Weather was about as crazy as I've ever seen. It hovered around 35-40 all weekend, and the weather turned on a dime every 20 minutes. Full sun, then Overcast, then rain, then part sun, then Graupel, then heavy snow. At best, conditions would momentarily hit either slush or dust on crust, but most of the whole weekend was spent getting hammered by refrozen mess when the sun went away and just enough snow came down to freeze everything solid.

 

So, it was a mess, but the skis handled it really well. I had the widest skis in my skiing group by about 15 mm, and still had the best edge grip- never lost an edge the whole weekend.  I'm sure part of that has to do with tuning, but I also know that my friend's skis had been tuned within the past 5 ski days or so.

 

I never felt the ski was overmatched for conditions, although obviously there are skis that would be better suited for days that were mostly rock hard refrozen boilerplate junk.  I brought the skis thinking conditions would either be powder or slush, but the storm decided to snow just enough to make things suck.

 

Frozen bumps were no issue, refrozen cut up slush sucked, but I can't see any ski doing well with that type of ankle-breaker crap.

 

At 9:00 this morning I was at an abandoned Sunlight and spent several hours on the frozen corduroy there. Most of it had apparently been groomed the night before, and had set up so hard that in some spots I was barely even making marks on the ridgetops. I couldn't get them to lay down hard arcing railroad tracks, but they were still very competent and fun.

 

So, at this point I've had these skis in everything from 40" blower to rock hard refrozen, and the ski has handled everything I've thrown at it. These are going to be my go-to ski for probably 90% of my days, and I think they are a perfectly reasonable choice for a 1 ski quiver for someplace that gets a good amount of snow. 

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