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Help steer me towards light 5 dimension skis? - Page 2

post #31 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post


So Icelantic is built by Never Summer, who never  mentions Icelantic on their website, and RMU is built in the same something. Ski brands that have their skis made by another manufacturer do not inspire my confidence. It's a pig in a poke, a stab in the dark, a crapshoot. Who's ski is it? Guess some of these companies are just middle men, in for the mark-up on someone else's work and brains. Ohh, make it this shape, give it that rocker, and jua-la, it's a miracle, a ski designed from bullshit, and we'll call it: Apostle. rolleyes.gif

 

Neversummer has an excellent reputation for pressing quality boards and skis. I skied Icelantics when they first came out and was very happy with them. Design and quality were peachy.  IMO their issue is not that their boards are pressed by Neversummer, but that they have fallen behind the design curve IMO. If you like their designs, there is certainly no reason to hesitate due to quality concerns.

 

Many, many brands contract out for all or part of their manufacturing because they have capacity to do so. Many sub out all or part of their builds to those with capacity. That is basic economics in today's world.  Elan seems to build for half the universe. K2 has been known to do work for others. Heck, Praxis builds for H20 and Worth --- and good luck finding a more carefully crafted ski... (yes I am a Praxis fan)

post #32 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
 Heck, Praxis builds for H20 and Worth --- and good luck finding a more carefully crafted ski... (yes I am a Praxis fan)

This is actually the relationship that I was referring to in the last paragraph of my last post. wink.gif

post #33 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post

So I got the Maestros yesterday, and my initial impression of build quality is pretty good. Topsheets, bases, sidewalls all look well fitted, edges look nice and beefy, the cambering looks the same on both skis- generally a lot of the quality control problems other people had mentioned about prior years seem to be better.

 

It does look like they are sending these out with a machine tune now- my bases show a stonegrind pattern. I haven't taken them out of the plastic yet so I haven't checked the edge angle.

 

The skis are listed as "medium stiff," but the tip and tails are very floppy. They seem to stiffen up around the area that the rocker profile ends.  They are stiffer than my Obsethed by a touch, but nowhere near an actually stiff ski.

 

And there is A LOT of rise in the tip and tails on these, and absolutely no camber. I've read several review talking about how these have been decent on hardpack, I have my doubts, but that's not exactly what I bought these for.

 

I pick up the bindings tomorrow, but I probably won't be skiing these until next weekend. Very excited to get on them.

Have fun.  I've got the cherub topsheet and love those things when the going gets deep.  In my experience, mount location makes a significant difference on the way these ski.  I tried mounting on the powder line, but ended up exactly between the jib and powder lines.

post #34 of 72
Quote:

Originally Posted by anachronism View Post
 

And there is A LOT of rise in the tip and tails on these, and absolutely no camber. I've read several review talking about how these have been decent on hardpack, I have my doubts, but that's not exactly what I bought these for.

 

Yeah, these sure aren't the boards I'd pick for a groomer day but that doesn't keep me from having fun on them on the way back to the lift.  It's fun to lean 'em over a fair bit but they don't offer all that much pop.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitemb View Post

Have fun.  I've got the cherub topsheet and love those things when the going gets deep.  In my experience, mount location makes a significant difference on the way these ski.  I tried mounting on the powder line, but ended up exactly between the jib and powder lines.

 

I put Schizos on mine, and move them back about 2cm for a deep CO pow day (1'+).  Makes a big difference IMO.  Mine were the first production run and lack a line so I took my mounting point directly from the designer.

post #35 of 72

Davluri-  That is because you think the brand of your skis makes you cool.  I personally think you sound like a complete fool.  I judge a ski based on how it performs, and the quality of its construction.  I think it is ridiculous that you are touting the S7, made by the Wal-Mart of ski companies, and trash talking small companies because of their business structure.  I will ski my Apostles, which will last for years, and you will continue to be a moron.  

post #36 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post


So Icelantic is built by Never Summer, who never  mentions Icelantic on their website, and RMU is built in the same something. Ski brands that have their skis made by another manufacturer do not inspire my confidence. It's a pig in a poke, a stab in the dark, a crapshoot. Who's ski is it? Guess some of these companies are just middle men, in for the mark-up on someone else's work and brains. Ohh, make it this shape, give it that rocker, and jua-la, it's a miracle, a ski designed from bullshit, and we'll call it: Apostle. rolleyes.gif

Hahaha
post #37 of 72

I bought a pair of Bluehouse Mavens two years ago and keep them in a locker out in Colorado. I probably have 6-7 days on them A few times out I skied them in over half a foot and once about a foot and they skied great and were a lot of fun. But my experience on them would indicate that they are terrible if they are not in powder. When skiing on anything groomed they squirt out from underneath my feet like uncontrollable saucers . I took them to a tuner to check the bases to see if they were concave or something but they were too wide to check with a true bar. Anyway I never experienced anything like this on ski . I' m convinced something is not right but was not willing to spend the $$ to see if they needed base ground . Probably should have. I need to bring them back home on my next trip out. I will sell them at a very cheap price if I do. 

post #38 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Round turns View Post

I bought a pair of Bluehouse Mavens two years ago and keep them in a locker out in Colorado. I probably have 6-7 days on them A few times out I skied them in over half a foot and once about a foot and they skied great and were a lot of fun. But my experience on them would indicate that they are terrible if they are not in powder. When skiing on anything groomed they squirt out from underneath my feet like uncontrollable saucers . I took them to a tuner to check the bases to see if they were concave or something but they were too wide to check with a true bar. Anyway I never experienced anything like this on ski . I' m convinced something is not right but was not willing to spend the $$ to see if they needed base ground . Probably should have. I need to bring them back home on my next trip out. I will sell them at a very cheap price if I do. 

 

How much experience do you have with a ski with a 140 mm waist? I'm a pretty big fan of generally wider skis, but honestly I probably wouldn't consider using a ski like that inbounds without well over a foot, and I would expect it to pretty much suck on anything groomed/hardpack.  Even with my exceptional luck at having a home area that both gets a ton of snow and has very little crowds, I still think the Maven would be something that could only be a quiver ski.

 

Really, really looking forward to trying out the Maestro's this weekend- its is looking like it will be DEEP. I ended up mounting them 1cm in front of the recommended powder mount, because the key think I want these skis to do is be QUICK to come around in trees, and I would be surprised if I have real issues floating the ski.

post #39 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

 

Neversummer has an excellent reputation for pressing quality boards and skis. I skied Icelantics when they first came out and was very happy with them. Design and quality were peachy.  IMO their issue is not that their boards are pressed by Neversummer, but that they have fallen behind the design curve IMO. If you like their designs, there is certainly no reason to hesitate due to quality concerns.

 

Many, many brands contract out for all or part of their manufacturing because they have capacity to do so. Many sub out all or part of their builds to those with capacity. That is basic economics in today's world.  Elan seems to build for half the universe. K2 has been known to do work for others. Heck, Praxis builds for H20 and Worth --- and good luck finding a more carefully crafted ski... (yes I am a Praxis fan)

^^^ This. Cannot speak to Neversummer, but a friend who owns Praxis says they're amazing QC and very durable; I know 4FRNT - which I've owned, very durable - gets made by Elan; in fact, Fischer and Elan make a raft of intermediate and beginner and kids' skis for everyone. For that matter, Kastles are made in Head's factory, and Nordies in Blizzard's. And of course, a bunch of skis we admire, from Volkl and DPS and Liberty to others, are made in China. So who "makes" their "own" skis, and how do we define it? Kind of like figuring out what "Made in America" actually means...

post #40 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post

^^^ This. Cannot speak to Neversummer, but a friend who owns Praxis says they're amazing QC and very durable; I know 4FRNT - which I've owned, very durable - gets made by Elan; in fact, Fischer and Elan make a raft of intermediate and beginner and kids' skis for everyone. For that matter, Kastles are made in Head's factory, and Nordies in Blizzard's. And of course, a bunch of skis we admire, from Volkl and DPS and Liberty to others, are made in China. So who "makes" their "own" skis, and how do we define it? Kind of like figuring out what "Made in America" actually means...


This and the referenced content are slip and jive logic. I'd reply, then why not buy the Elan or Fischer, or  the French or Spanish Rossi, or Chamonix Dynastar, or German Volkl, or American Praxis? You'd know who takes responsibility and what their ski's heritage is.  Selecting from manufacturers with their own engineers and designers is still possible and offers a good number of companies to choose from.  I'm pretty sure I could ski another 5 decades and have no problem not owning 4Frnt, Nordica, Liberty, DPS, Icelantic, White Dot.... I have no trouble defining criteria for who makes a ski, or what made in America (or Germany, or France) means.

 

DPS made in China? Whoa! really Msolsen?

post #41 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post


This and the referenced content are slip and jive logic. I'd reply, then why not buy the Elan or Fischer, or  the French or Spanish Rossi, or Chamonix Dynastar, or German Volkl, or American Praxis? You'd know who takes responsibility and what their ski's heritage is.  Selecting from manufacturers with their own engineers and designers is still possible and offers a good number of companies to choose from.  I'm pretty sure I could ski another 5 decades and have no problem not owning 4Frnt, Nordica, Liberty, DPS, Icelantic, White Dot.... I have no trouble defining criteria for who makes a ski, or what made in America (or Germany, or France) means.

 

DPS made in China? Whoa! really Msolsen?

 

So first you come into this thread to bash boutique manufacturers that make skis in the USA. Then you bash any manufacturer that contracts space at another production facility.  Seems like what you are really doing is putting together a really obtuse and convoluted argument as to why everybody should love Rossi.

 

I find it hilarious that you act like all of these other ski companies lack engineers and designers, like all they are doing is getting K2 and Volkl skis off the line and slapping a new topsheet on them- especially when several of the companies you call out have designs that A) are different than what anybody else is doing, and B) get rave reviews.

 

Is an indy ski automatically better than a major brand? No.  But every person has a different view of what the perfect ski is, and right now there is an incredible amount of choice out there.  Ski enough skis these days, and you can probably find an off the rack ski that would match exactly what you would want if you were having one custom-made.  Choice is awesome.

 

Outsourcing ski production is absolutely normal in this business for manufacturers of all sizes. The vast majority of companies outsourcing ski production have zero quality issues. I'd rather base my impression of skis on actual skiing performance and actual quality rather than find arbitrary reasons to like one over the other that have NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW THEY SKI.

post #42 of 72

The marketing BS comes at us so fast and thick that I have to block it out sometimes. And if you can't make a ski, why would I listen to your marketing. How a ski performs is related to how it's made. Sure some of the skis made by Atomic are great. Why wouldn't they be, Atomic knows what they're doing after all. And compare Katanas for the past 5 years. Get back to me then. What is standard in the product world does not impress me, so what would I care about that either. I don't think you have thought this through. Bashing is my social responsibility.

 

Yes, I can name half a dozen ski companies that lack an engineer.
Designers are a plenty.

 

edit: I really don't care what others think of Rossignol skis. If we are talking about actual design and engineering, their concepts have to be included though. and I only bash boutiques that either can't or won't make their own skis, and make them as well as the big companies. reviews: pssssh.  designs: prove it.


Edited by davluri - 3/6/13 at 10:18am
post #43 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

The marketing BS comes at us so fast and thick that I have to block it out sometimes. And if you can't make a ski, why would I listen to your marketing. How a ski performs is related to how it's made. Sure some of the skis made by Atomic are great. Why wouldn't they be, Atomic knows what they're doing after all. And compare Katanas for the past 5 years. Get back to me then. What is standard in the product world does not impress me, so what would I care about that either. I don't think you have thought this through. Bashing is my social responsibility.

 

Yes, I can name half a dozen ski companies that lack an engineer.
Designers are a plenty.

 

So... Icelantic and DPS are just marketing?  Other Indy manufacturers that make lighter skis, different dimensions, materials, etc., none of that matters or could be positive attributes for a ski? Really? Are you kidding me?

post #44 of 72
Off topic

Moment/On3p > Icelantic/DPS

The^ graphics are the best in business as well.
post #45 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiSafe View Post

Moment/On3p > Icelantic/DPS

The^ graphics are the best in business as well.

Care to elaborate (regarding performance not the graphics) or do I have to take it on faith that this is gnar ski fact???

post #46 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post

 

How much experience do you have with a ski with a 140 mm waist? I'm a pretty big fan of generally wider skis, but honestly I probably wouldn't consider using a ski like that inbounds without well over a foot, and I would expect it to pretty much suck on anything groomed/hardpack.  Even with my exceptional luck at having a home area that both gets a ton of snow and has very little crowds, I still think the Maven would be something that could only be a quiver ski.

 

Really, really looking forward to trying out the Maestro's this weekend- its is looking like it will be DEEP. I ended up mounting them 1cm in front of the recommended powder mount, because the key think I want these skis to do is be QUICK to come around in trees, and I would be surprised if I have real issues floating the ski.

These were the widest skis I ever skied and I don't know what I was thinking when I bought them. Have a pair of CHam 107 now and really like them even on groomers. Something is squirrelly with the Mavens though. Hope you enjoy your skis and they ski to your expectations. I am suspect regarding the stone grind Bluehouse puts on their skis. They aren't Up to Kastle standards I don't think. But they were not intended to be skied in anything less than deep snow. Anyway live and learn I did not pay a lot of money for them , but as little as I skied them they represent an expensive purchase. I think I need to get them bases checked and machined before I can fairly comment further.

post #47 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post

 

So... Icelantic and DPS are just marketing?  Other Indy manufacturers that make lighter skis, different dimensions, materials, etc., none of that matters or could be positive attributes for a ski? Really? Are you kidding me?


Indy manufacturers can make anything on the planet, but if it doesn't ski well, who gives a sh&t.  and how could it matter or be a positive attribute at all. I'm not kidding you. long and flat doesn't make it a ski.

 

I always looked at Icelantics, with the tip about 1/2" thick and wondered, what the f are they doing? I don't think they can make a tip that won't break if it isn't an inch thick. amateurs. or snowboard makers. either way, what crud.

 

If DPS, with all their pretense at being a high end, carefully made, newly designed product, sounds like pure and simple hype. Yes, just marketing. What else is Msolsen doing here?

post #48 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Round turns View Post

These were the widest skis I ever skied and I don't know what I was thinking when I bought them. Have a pair of CHam 107 now and really like them even on groomers. Something is squirrelly with the Mavens though. Hope you enjoy your skis and they ski to your expectations. I am suspect regarding the stone grind Bluehouse puts on their skis. They aren't Up to Kastle standards I don't think. But they were not intended to be skied in anything less than deep snow. Anyway live and learn I did not pay a lot of money for them , but as little as I skied them they represent an expensive purchase. I think I need to get them bases checked and machined before I can fairly comment further.

 

From what I understand from many other threads, previous to this year Bluehouse skis were leaving the China factory with NO TUNE. No base structure, no edge grind, no correction for base or edge high.

 

This year they started sending out all of their stuff to a local SLC tune shop.

 

I'm a sample size of one, but I've looked over mine pretty closely. The edges are SHARP (though I don't know what angle), the bases have a good stone grind pattern and they came waxed, although I did my own wax job as I would guess they probably just got run down the wax buffer instead of a hotbox or iron in.

 

I checked the bases with a straightedge, and one ski has a very slight base high, one a very slight edge high (no more than a millimeter and really about the width of a sheet of paper), and the running length of the ski is spot on.

 

From an initial quality perspective, I'm very happy. But the proof will be in the pudding come Saturday...

post #49 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

If DPS, with all their pretense at being a high end, carefully made, newly designed product, sounds like pure and simple hype. Yes, just marketing. What else is Msolsen doing here?

 

So I guess when I pick up one of DPS's carbon skis, and go "holy crap, this is burlier than anything I ski and half the weight," I've been taken in by marketing?

 

 

In your world, should everybody in the ski market just force their skiing style to conform to an S7 or some other davluri approved ski on the Rossi line?

post #50 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post

 

So I guess when I pick up one of DPS's carbon skis, and go "holy crap, this is burlier than anything I ski and half the weight," I've been taken in by marketing?

 

 

In your world, should everybody in the ski market just force their skiing style to conform to an S7 or some other davluri approved ski on the Rossi line?

If you can just pick up a ski and tell all that about it, and that it is better than an S7, than you are far more knowledgeable than I am.  And why assume that half the weight is a good thing? explain.

 

You don't even know how burlier skis. or what skiing burly is. or if anyone wants burly. or what burly means in ski jargon.

 

You young kids will buy anything. you're god sent for crappy ski makers. sorry, but it's true.

 

give them burly, whatever the f that is. they'll jump all over it.

post #51 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

 

If DPS, with all their pretense at being a high end, carefully made, newly designed product, sounds like pure and simple hype. Yes, just marketing. What else is Msolsen doing here?

I know Marshal would have looked at that comment, said pfffft and not bother to reply.  But really, your an idiot.

post #52 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post

 

......

Outsourcing ski production is absolutely normal in this business for manufacturers of all sizes. The vast majority of companies outsourcing ski production have zero quality issues. I'd rather base my impression of skis on actual skiing performance and actual quality rather than find arbitrary reasons to like one over the other that have NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW THEY SKI.

Great, some companies make their own, but the product sucks. others know they can't make a ski, so have someone else make it. that way their ineptitude and inexperience won't get in the way of quality issues.

post #53 of 72

can't we all get along? - if a certain ski makes you ski better or makes you believe that you're skiing better; who cares whom its made by?  lets just ski and have fun.

n

post #54 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisandy View Post

can't we all get along? - if a certain ski makes you ski better or makes you believe that you're skiing better; who cares whom its made by?  lets just ski and have fun.

n

Actually the best thing is the "Block Member" feature.  I'm tired of BS being spewed by one person who believes his answer is the only answer and that he can never possibly be wrong.  What a tool!  I have yet to find anything useful in anything he has ever said so I know I won't miss much by never seeing his drivel again.  If enough people did that he'd just be talking to himself, which is what he deserves.

post #55 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by liv2 ski View Post

I know Marshal would have looked at that comment, said pfffft and not bother to reply.  But really, your an idiot.

 

I'm really not compelled to take at faith the things that salesmen and reps and marketing mgrs have to say. you are welcome to all the kool aid you like.

Say that crap to my face on the ski hill and you will feel like a clumsy, faltering idiot, probably wondering what the hell is wrong with the skis you bought.

Coronado to be sure.

post #56 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

If DPS, with all their pretense at being a high end, carefully made, newly designed product, sounds like pure and simple hype. Yes, just marketing. What else is Msolsen doing here?

No, they're an excellent product. Not everyone's cuppa tea, but solid, innovative design, work really well in many conditions. Sorry, but I've have owned two, you have owned how many?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

 

I'm really not compelled to take at faith the things that salesmen and reps and marketing mgrs have to say. you are welcome to all the kool aid you like.

Say that crap to my face on the ski hill and you will feel like a clumsy, faltering idiot, probably wondering what the hell is wrong with the skis you bought.

Coronado to be sure. Navy or spoiled?

Calm down. Getting waaay too personal here, and just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they've taken Kool Aid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

wait, I get it, the dude bought Icelantic skis.


Said the dude who tells everyone that the Steadfast is the only ski for them. don't you ever get tired of yourself? what a f'ing bore. And skis like a dip, no doubt in my mind. If I knock a ski, you knock me, personally. what a spew of crap. go scr& yourself.

Over the top now. 

post #57 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post

Actually the best thing is the "Block Member" feature. 


Thanks.  That's a much better idea that this ridiculous argument, and I'm the type where if I see it, I just can't resist getting drawn in...

post #58 of 72
You guys are pansies.
post #59 of 72

Nope, we just don't buy into the TGR model of flaming each other into submission. biggrin.gif  Place for both ways...

post #60 of 72

I dont think it's gotten to that point...but i haven't read every comment. I thought you guys were complaining about somebody not liking Indie brands, so you blocked them. 

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