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Look pivots:old vs. new?

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 

i have bought a pair of Black Crows Corvus, and I really want a pair of of Looks on them. I have a pair of new RS 99s, or I can purchase a pair of new Pivots from the shop. comparing the heelpieces shows that they are exactly the same piece, bar a few casting details .

Is there any counter-indication to the RS 99 toepiece? It is metal, has a better adjustability to the shoe, but has a different screw pattern. 

The question is technical, not legal. I will be mounting them to the skis.

post #2 of 23

Chances are the brakes will not be wide enough. I am not sure what you mean by "counter indication". I will say the RS99 does not have the upward compensation that the newer designed toes. 

post #3 of 23
Thread Starter 

The brakes are wide enough. I have acess to a mechanical workshop and have taken them apart and widened them.

By upward compensation you mean elasticity before release?

post #4 of 23
I do not know which generation of the 99rs that you have, but there was a run that the heel units cracked.
post #5 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post

The brakes are wide enough. I have acess to a mechanical workshop and have taken them apart and widened them.

By upward compensation you mean elasticity before release?

By upward compensation, am referring to upward pressure in the toe turning into lateral force to release. Personally, I wouldn't go older than a Z toe to ski now..and I have them all. 

 

 

post #6 of 23
Why use those on new skis? Way too old.
post #7 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iriponsnow View Post

Why use those on new skis? Way too old.

because I have them, because I like them, and because they did not cause problems to WC racers in their time.

However I am being cautious and diligent to avoid a costly mistake . If there is a good technical reason not to use them, I will buy new ones.

I went through the same process with a pair of MRRs that I ended up mounting on a pair of 207 Olins and have had zero issues.

post #8 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post

because I have them, because I like them, and because they did not cause problems to WC racers in their time.

However I am being cautious and diligent to avoid a costly mistake . If there is a good technical reason not to use them, I will buy new ones.

I went through the same process with a pair of MRRs that I ended up mounting on a pair of 207 Olins and have had zero issues.

 

George...lots of folks will tell you (at least in the US) that if the binding is no longer indemnified that it should not be used. This is where you have to weigh the risk/reward of using an older binding (which is in good mechanical shape, cleaned and lubricated, properly mounted and set to a reasonable release setting).

 

I ski a pair of Look 99 RS's on my Rossi 4Sk's a few times per season. I also ski the older Look 77R's on a couple different skis. Only you can decide what you are comfortable with.

 

post #9 of 23

The "new" one piece toe, used with the turntable pivot heel as a set, and used with the PX 15 Race, doesn't have any upward release capability at all.....either.   (this information second hand from a shop person, so you'd have to check it out further.) So modes and angles of release for "old" and "new" may  be equal.

Who would know the degree to which spring steel fatigues over how much time, and were the new 99's packaged with the spring in the non-stressed position for the last 30 years?  That would be my only question.

post #10 of 23

You can mount them, you can adjust them, but can you release test them?

post #11 of 23

Sorry Dave, you are wrong, the 15/18 din single pivot toe does have upward compensation  

post #12 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

The "new" one piece toe, used with the turntable pivot heel as a set, and used with the PX 15 Race, doesn't have any upward release capability at all.....either.   (this information second hand from a shop person, so you'd have to check it out further.) So modes and angles of release for "old" and "new" may  be equal.

Who would know the degree to which spring steel fatigues over how much time, and were the new 99's packaged with the spring in the non-stressed position for the last 30 years?  That would be my only question.

There is a good video posted showing the release protection of the two toe pc's in the 14 and below series and the 15 and above series (sorry, just can't find it again).

 

The video showed a ski boot being forced out of the binding by placing a screwdriver under the boot and prying upwards.

 

The 14 series release as the wings moved upwards at a certain point and reset.

 

The 15 series the toe pivots until the nose of the binding touched the ski and the boot did not release.  No further travel was availble to allow release.

 

This said, I've skied both bindings.  Mind you the only one I've had release's on is the 14's and that at the toe in what I would consider (speculative) a vertical toe pre-release at the same DIN settings (after seeing the release mechanism on the 14's on the video).  Currently I'm on the 15's (no plastic).

post #13 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

There is a good video posted showing the release protection of the two toe pc's in the 14 and below series and the 15 and above series (sorry, just can't find it again).

 

The video showed a ski boot being forced out of the binding by placing a screwdriver under the boot and prying upwards.

 

The 14 series release as the wings moved upwards at a certain point and reset.

 

The 15 series the toe pivots until the nose of the binding touched the ski and the boot did not release.  No further travel was availble to allow release.

 

This said, I've skied both bindings.  Mind you the only one I've had release's on is the 14's and that at the toe in what I would consider (speculative) a vertical toe pre-release at the same DIN settings (after seeing the release mechanism on the 14's on the video).  Currently I'm on the 15's (no plastic).


Thanks for the information. Is the conclusion then that the toe is made for upward release but malfunctioned in the video test, or is there no upward release as this is the max retention model and eliminated that function?  I have examined the one piece toe and can't see how there is clearance for an upward release without some side swivel also. Also odd to me was the fact that the one piece toe seems primitive, raw, coarse in the area where the sole of the toe fits in. The three piece toe has all kinds of rollers and anti friction surfaces in there, the one  piece is two aluminum bumpers.

Phil, if I have it wrong, thanks for the correction.

post #14 of 23

I went into my shop and tested the PX 15 Race. The one piece toe did deflect with the wings end of the toe moving upward about 1/2".  How well that releases in the real world I could not say.

post #15 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

I went into my shop and tested the PX 15 Race. The one piece toe did deflect with the wings end of the toe moving upward about 1/2".  How well that releases in the real world I could not say.

That's about what the video showed.  Wish I could remember how I found it.  With the boot in it it didn't show to pop out of the binding, but like you said who knows in the real world.

post #16 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post


Thanks for the information. Is the conclusion then that the toe is made for upward release but malfunctioned in the video test, or is there no upward release as this is the max retention model and eliminated that function?  I have examined the one piece toe and can't see how there is clearance for an upward release without some side swivel also. Also odd to me was the fact that the one piece toe seems primitive, raw, coarse in the area where the sole of the toe fits in. The three piece toe has all kinds of rollers and anti friction surfaces in there, the one  piece is two aluminum bumpers.

Phil, if I have it wrong, thanks for the correction.

Honestly don't know.

post #17 of 23

Like Phil, I have a slew of new and old Looks, know for fact that the FKS/Pivot 14 toe releases upward, was told that the 18 does also, but with a heavier spring so that it requires serious torque, usually beyond what we can produce with a hand test. OTOH, had also been told that the 18 does not allow upward, period. So fitted the one 18 I ever owned to a bench, got a crowbar under the boot, and some electrical tape to protect everything, it lifted nicely. This was pure up, and obviously no measurement of force. Perhaps since then it's been changed to horizontal only. th_dunno-1[1].gif

 

FWIW, I use the 14 FKS for Sl and GS racing, there's so much elasticity that I've never pre-released nor would I ever worry about it. In fact, one beauty of the binding is that you can set it a notch or two lower than any other brand and stay in just as well. Also have seen plenty of 14's - and some 12's - on strong skiers and coaches. If I were on the WC circuit and routinely handled 3-4G's in a rutted turn, sure, the 18. Otherwise more about psychic factors than real performance, IMO. 


Edited by beyond - 2/18/13 at 7:50am
post #18 of 23

Tàke a Look/Rossi 15 or 18 DIN toe. Lighten the DIN down low enough  6 or 7 or so to where you can put pressure on the nose of the toe with your palm and press down. You will see the nose drop and the wings rise. As you do this, you can also twist the toe sideways and you will see that there is upward compensation. 

post #19 of 23

The Pivot 14, if like the PX 14, has the toe piece with plastic wings that pivot up and out to release. The 18 has no, zero, movable wings. The entire toe pivots. When I checked the range of movement I loosened the main spring to get full movement, which performed as I said above. As stated, I think the 18 goes toward retention for a pro model type design.

post #20 of 23

FOUND IT yahoo.gif!

 

 

Sorry I was mistaken about the screw driver being used, but still impressive.

post #21 of 23

Is the assertion that there will always be accompanying lateral force to complete the release?  See Phil's post. I think that is a stress that is sometimes absolutely on axis with the toepiece.

post #22 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

Is the assertion that there will always be accompanying lateral force to complete the release?  See Phil's post. I think that is a stress that is sometimes absolutely on axis with the toepiece.

 

I agree.

 

But the 14's do release very well in that direction.  I experienced 2 releases (sliding sideways and falling, when I caught the edges before I got used to the shaped skis....what a newbie mistake, I was so ashamed eek.gif), but the release occured just as I hit the ground with no twist.  Couldn't quite figure out on how I popped out considering I had the bindings set at 8.5 (just right for that boot, wt, level combination) until I saw the video.  If you are good skier you generally know when and hows of the release when you have one.  It took the video to show me the how.  I think If had a few more releases like that without seeing the video I would have started questioning the binding as no loading was felt in the body.

 

Now that I know what caused it, I wouldn't call this a pre-release by any means, and I had no other releases in any other direction about 56hrs on the 14's.  It just caught me off guard. The main reason for change to 15's, no plastic that hold the boot in (but that's a personal preference, not a binding function thing).

 

BTW hasn't happened since....knock on wood.

post #23 of 23
Thread Starter 

Thank you all fo rthe brain picking and info.

I have ordered a pair of FKS 180 XXL with a reasonable discount. The 99RSs (and several MRRs) will stay in the boxes for now.

I figured that since the Corvus are rather big skis for what could be intense skiing sessions, I would not chance my dear ACLs on bindings that could be less efficient.

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