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Looking at common movements of "straight ski" skiers - Page 2

post #31 of 46
post #32 of 46

Turning an older straight ski required pretty much the same input as turning current skis; just more of it.  The skis had to be unweighted, (up, down, or terrain) today think cross over and cross under.  They had to be edged and pressured, especially to carve (yes we could carve and drift).  Upper/lower body separation and dynamic balance while skiing the fall line. More steering, more pivoting, and just as much leverage.  

 

As the gear got older and less responsive even more motion was required above the boots to initiate the turns.  Consider pretty much every one skied on squared edges and grooved skis, so they did like going straight a lot more.

 

With the technical gains of equipment came some losses too.  Turns like the mambo just do not feel right in modern boots on shaped skis; sad too, they were fun.  So don't think they required different movements, just more of the same ones.

post #33 of 46

From 1958...

 

 

 

 

post #34 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

From 1958...

 

 

 

 

Great post. They really speak of carving in the context of a description of Wedeln!  Like a lot of what they were telling people to do though, the turn actually involved actively moving the skis away from the body. Nowadays instruction involves teaching people to move the body away from the skis (and laterally). Both are supposed to set you up for the so-called carve but in the former technique there is a loss of edgehold in the actual turn. It seems to me also that while it may leave your edges gripping the snow, it does not leave your body in a position to balance against the forces these could develop, even if you were intending to finish the turn with a carve, hence more skidding. 

 

This isn't necessarily what the top racers could be seen doing though, unless perhaps they were showing off for the public. Its curious to see a ski technique being taught that seems to derive more from stylistic expectations than good functional movements and mechanics. 

 

alf Engen though, in the piece on Spring conditions, sounds almost contemporary.

post #35 of 46

post #36 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo87 View Post

Love the way his skis follow his tips.  This is what I always strived for.

 

Thanks for sharing.

post #37 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

 

Seems like a lot of old school technique depended on heel thrusts, pivoting, etc that one or way or another introduced skidding into the turns. So what was the "common movement" (technique) to ski ice on straight skis? Was some variation of a check turn how it was/is done?

 

As one of the few remaining old school, straight ski diehards, I can tell you that it is not a heel thrust. Focus on the hips. Look at where the weight is being applied.

 

As far as ice, you've got the right approach. The common movement on ice is hold steady and ride it out. It's not a check turn. That would be too abrupt on ice. Do the opposite - gentle turns.

post #38 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aero View Post

 

As one of the few remaining old school, straight ski diehards, I can tell you that it is not a heel thrust. Focus on the hips. Look at where the weight is being applied.

 

As far as ice, you've got the right approach. The common movement on ice is hold steady and ride it out. It's not a check turn. That would be too abrupt on ice. Do the opposite - gentle turns.

Depends on what you mean by ice though. A lot of people would call the surface (water injected) that WC skiers are on ice. Straight skis carve very well on that stuff.

post #39 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo87 View Post


nice video, music better than the first one.

For much of that clip he's not on straight skis. I'm not sure about the opening - prob straight.

The clip in comp as number 41 is on shapes, and the short turns at 2:20 are on Nordica circa 2000? shapes. Ironically, I think I prefer his straight ski short turns.

 

Ok, some Stenmark gs. Not sure the year here. Mid 80's?

 

    jmannen77                                                                                                               http://youtu.be/b0GKM330Gr4


Edited by Tog - 2/21/13 at 4:05pm
post #40 of 46

Here's Michael VonGrunigen 1996, I guess it's an early shape ski.

Much more two footed and rounded arc carving.

 

bardosilente                                                                   http://youtu.be/EgjRxt_Feg4
 

post #41 of 46

    Nice Tog! I like how far inside (closer to the panels) his skis were than the ruts left by racers that ran before him....biggrin.gif

 

 

    zenny

post #42 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

I feel like this needs to be shared again... because he's definitely one of the greats:

 


 

cool stuff 

 

its a bit like HH / lifting inside ski.

 

It really strikes me how much tipping of ski he achieves the instant the skis change direction

post #43 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aero View Post

The common movement on ice is hold steady and ride it out. It's not a check turn. That would be too abrupt on ice. Do the opposite - gentle turns.

 

I'm working to figure ice out, and am definitely approaching it as you suggest above, but I have seen good skiers on steep, icy pitches using a series of crisp check turns - metronomic, short swing kinda turns - fast, smooth and totally in control. Would be nice to have that in the bag too.

 

Along that line would love to see some video posted here of good skiers making controlled turns on ice - new/old school, smooth/check/etc. Not race footage - maybe video from an instructor clinic, or just freeskiing down an icy slope making turns most would agree are good, whatever the style.

post #44 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

 

I'm working to figure ice out, and am definitely approaching it as you suggest above, but I have seen good skiers on steep, icy pitches using a series of crisp check turns - metronomic, short swing kinda turns - fast, smooth and totally in control. Would be nice to have that in the bag too.

 

Along that line would love to see some video posted here of good skiers making controlled turns on ice - new/old school, smooth/check/etc. Not race footage - maybe video from an instructor clinic, or just freeskiing down an icy slope making turns most would agree are good, whatever the style.

jc-ski,  having just swtiched from straights, the biggest thing I can say is you have to be very neutral on straights, little forward or back on ice and it didn't go so well.  The shape wasn't there to save you and the length sometimes seemed to work against you in those conditions.  Just to much edge not enough pressure for good bite.

post #45 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

 

......

Along that line would love to see some video posted here of good skiers making controlled turns on ice - new/old school, smooth/check/etc. Not race footage - maybe video from an instructor clinic, or just freeskiing down an icy slope making turns most would agree are good, whatever the style.

......

Look at almost any clip of World Cup skiing and you will be looking at skiing on what many people would consider to be ice, especially slalom courses.  The courses are injected with water to make them hard. The objective is to create a course that will hold up, not develop pronounced ruts that would place succeeding runners at a significant disadvantage. If you've ever skied one of these courses (or something comparable) the "snow" is grippy but just barely and there is enough actual snow on the surface (like maybe half an inch) to make it look like snow. Fall on a course like that, have your skis come off and you may find it almost impossible to walk up if the slope has any pitch to it because you literally cannot get your boot into the snow. The average person skiing this stuff would find it very difficult I think. Racers get good grip on the stuff because their skis are tipped enough to get good edge and their bodies are aligned so as to be able to maintain edgehold.  This isn't true ice, as in the blue kind, but it is close I think to what many mean when they describe a slope as "icy".

 

I think the key to skiing and carving on ice is the same whether you're on "straight" skis or shapes. You have to develop sufficient inclination (the angle your legs make to the snow) to get good edge grip and your center of mass has to be aligned with the forces this creates in order to hold that edge. The more the force created through higher speeds and the shape of the turn, the more the need for inclination and the more your body's mass has to be to the inside of the ski.  Straight skis carve perfectly well by the way if they have edges and reasonably good torsional stiffness. They just don't have much turn built into them. At high speed long radius turns the side camber in straight skis is sufficient. Super G skis and downhill (speed) skis are pretty much what they've been for a long time with respect to shape.  At slower speeds and with smaller radius turns the skis didn't offer enough shape and it was necessary to create what shape you could get by bending the "straight" skis.

 

It seems to me that most of the time when someone cannot get good edgehold on ice the surface is either too hard for the edges to cut into or the skier's mass is not where it needs to be to align with the forces that the edged ski can create. A lot of people get their edgegrip and inclination from knee angulation. Their edges are cutting the surface but their center of mass is still close to being over the skis and so the skis break away.

post #46 of 46
Quote:

Originally Posted by oisin View Post

 

Racers get good grip on the stuff because their skis are tipped enough to get good edge and their bodies are aligned so as to be able to maintain edgehold. 

 

I think the key to skiing and carving on ice is the same whether you're on "straight" skis or shapes. You have to develop sufficient inclination (the angle your legs make to the snow) to get good edge grip and your center of mass has to be aligned with the forces this creates in order to hold that edge. The more the force created through higher speeds and the shape of the turn, the more the need for inclination and the more your body's mass has to be to the inside of the ski. 

 

Points taken about balancing the forces being key. The nut I'm trying to crack is making slow, smooth, short radius carved turns on a steeper, icy slope. Although there would be some dynamic adjustments during the course of the turn in essence I would think ideally you'd want a pretty similar stance to what you'd have if just standing balanced across the icy slope - legs inclined into the hill to give some edge grip and a platform to stand on, and upper body balanced out over that platform, out from the hill. Just as you say above, Oisin.

 

The "tricks" seem to me as someone who's getting closer but isn't there yet are a) committing to the required stance, i.e., getting upper body out/away from the hill, and b) perhaps most importantly developing the feel to find that edge and balance and keep it locked in throughout the turn. Like a lot of things it can be described in simple terms, but to actually make it happen, well, that's where time and effort come in.   ;-)

 

This is the accompanying illustration for a piece on skiing ice in the book I mentioned a little earlier in this thread...

 

 

Stance width ( and sartorial choices ;-) aside it's remarkable how similar it is to the imagery LeMaster uses in "Ultimate Skiing" to illustrate the same concepts.

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