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Feedback on Race run

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 

I must be getting old.  My single digit HCP days are getting very rare.  So I must be getting desperate to be posting this vid on Epic :)) 


My beer leage run last night. Full speed and again slo mo. I have some thoughts but could use some fresh eyes on this.  Slo motion is easier to watch,


post #2 of 20
Thread Starter 

PS here is the youtube link.  Vid embbedder not really working.

post #3 of 20

     Project your CoM more in transition...your "behind it" just a bit...the guy in front was getting earlier turn shape. And work on your startswink.gif  



post #4 of 20

Looks like you get pretty on that inside ski towards the end of the turn but, the video is hard to watch...

post #5 of 20

you're pretty wide on the gates...could easily get closer.  Also, you turned around the final gate when you don't need to...should get into a deeper tuck 2nd gate from the end and just finish on flat skis.

post #6 of 20
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

     Project your CoM more in transition...your "behind it" just a bit...the guy in front was getting earlier turn shape. And work on your startswink.gif



You prescribed an outcome "project your CM." How about giving the OP and your other readers a clue about your preferred way to attain this outcome. That makes MA useful. Otherwise all MA could simply read "ski more like X (Hirscher, Davenport, Stenmark, Killy, Weems, whoever's your idol.)"
post #7 of 20
your right, sharpedges (thanx for pointing that out;))! i thought about it after posting this morning, then figured the OP would receive plenty of other, what was yours, BTW? Must've missed it.

i would add to my post above by advising him to begin his turns further above the panels by opening the hips to the fall line during seems he"s "hanging on" to the old turn for too long, possibly as a result of insufficient angulation earlier in the turn. tho its hard to tell from the vid. point is, in a lot of turns, hes low and late.

Edited by zentune - 2/13/13 at 6:08pm
post #8 of 20

  As far as "my" preferred" way of opening my hips to the hill are concerned...upon exiting the fall line in a sufficiently angulated/countered position, the skis will begin to move more across the fall line (though not necessarily perpendicular to it...depends on the set) The centrifugal forces that are encountered here are (or can be) great. In order to move through transition and into the next turn, the skis need to be "released" (otherwise they continue arcing for far too long) by lessening angulation, and counter, (and edge angles as a result of this). Foot steering also plays a role in this release as the femurs begin to rotate in their sockets back to "neutral" or "square". 


   Of course, transition type plays a major role in this--are you going to retract (swallowing or avalement), and leave the CoM relatively down (tho vaulting to some degree still occurs), so that you can get onto your new edges quickly, ala, a more down the fall line set, or are you going to extend the legs, and move foragonaly, to achieve greater distance across the hill with the skis--while leaving the Center of Mass inside? If the former is done correctly " hips open to the new turn" should not be a problem, as the body is usually facing down the fall line (more or less, there's plenty of photos showing otherwise) as the legs extend laterally back and forth under the CoM. If the latter, after squaring slightly during finishiation, the CoM moves down the fall line first as the skis still continue more across, (this is how we "catch back up" and create good turn shape, rather than lingering forever behind) This movement also helps facilitate the rolling of the edges (new outside is still "uphill" while new inside is still "downhill". Assuming the new inside leg begins to "collapse" while the new outside becomes "long", then such positioning requires (or at least, strongly encourages) open hips to the new turn. 



Edited by zentune - 2/13/13 at 7:37pm
post #9 of 20
Originally Posted by zentune View Post, what was yours, BTW? Must've missed it.




I come from a far off corner of the ski technique universe.  We speak a different dialect there, so communication with most EpicSki Bears can get garbled.  (Not to mention that forum management harbors suspicions about our tribe.)  Thus, I usually refrain from giving skiing advice when video is posted unless I am familiar with the skier or have something special to offer.  Thanks for asking though.



post #10 of 20
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post




I come from a far off corner of the ski technique universe.  We speak a different dialect there, so communication with most EpicSki Bears can get garbled.  (Not to mention that forum management harbors suspicions about our tribe.)  Thus, I usually refrain from giving skiing advice when video is posted unless I am familiar with the skier or have something special to offer.  Thanks for asking though.



   No worrieswink.gif...From whence do you Hail? biggrin.gif



post #11 of 20
Speaking of dialect...I personally feel made up words diminish our joint venture just a little whenever they are used. English is an amazing language capable of encompassing vast and minute ideas and feelings I feel we should use it.some say well I only say that around other trainers but I in response I feel we don't go out and practice skiing posting our head and hoping on one foot, er,well bad example but, practicing how we wish to perform in coaching public or others who in turn interact with public makes more sense to me than the verbal equivalent of a secret handshake. Just my opinion apologies.
post #12 of 20
English abounds with possibilities.

post #13 of 20

Looks like you could skate up to a higher speed in the start, around the first gate.

On a flat course like this it is important not to skid. You become late because of too much extension in a few transitions and then skid a bit in the next turn. Project your CoM over the outside ski without extending until you have to flex/retract/unedge. That will give you a much faster transition and early edge into the next turn. Looks better towards the end.

Your shins are not parallel. You edge the inside ski less. This is not a major problem as long as you weight the outside ski. However, if you have less angle on the inside and weight it you will skid/drift, in particular if the skis are not parallel. On a flat course like this it may be fast to not have all weight on the outside. Tip the inside foot harder and/or get aligned.

On a rutted course it is often faster to go in the rut rather than trying to find your own line. Seems you are late compared to the rut a few times (difficult to see because of the shaking camera)

Your tuck is quite deep on the knees but yet the body is somewhat upright. The angle of the back is important to minimize wind resistance. If you cannot go lower there is no reason to bend the legs that much. Ideally the entry of the back should be parallel to the ground.

post #14 of 20

This is where I race, on Wednesday nights.  I'm paying attention too.

post #15 of 20
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

This is where I race, on Wednesday nights.  I'm paying attention too.

   Jamt refers to a crossunder/down unweight/retraction style turn. It is flat (relatively). I agree--extend towards to the new turn with the legs--absorb in transition. Lessen "up" movements here with the body...

Also, try and turn above the FIRST gate and exit online...right off the bat. This will help set the tone for the rest of the course. If you begin "late", it's easy to stay late.



post #16 of 20



Your right turns suck! You should only race on Nascar tracks!


What is your boot alignment story? That left ski is doing some wacky things relative to the movements you are making. I'd like to see you on a groomed run lifting your right ski while making right turns.

post #17 of 20
zentune and JAMT offer great advise. One thing that was mentioned, but not elaborated, on was the start.

Work on your skating on the flats; have skating races with your buddies from the lodge to the lift. You'll quickly improve your skating skills. Usually a few long pole thrusts with strong skates are better a bunch of quick ones, but I have racers that defy that premise. Practice to find out what works best for you.

When you make your first push project to the first turn, not the sky. Your upper body should be moving towards the first turn (not up) and your ski poles more inclined in that direction so that when you push with your arms you are pushing towards the gate, not up. Swing your feet forward while your upper body is well forward of your feet so that when you exit the start gate, your feet are moving forward and under your body.

When you work on your starts, take your practice 'run' past the first panel. With the location of the first gate so close to the start, you may want to experiment with actually skating around the first gate as the guy in the right hand course did in your video. With improved skating, you may be surprised how much acceleration you can get from skating past the first gate. On this course, a skate around the first gate means a more direct line to the first gate as well as eliminating a difficult first turn where your speed isn't enough to really get the skis to engage and bend.

Practicing your starts and skating will reduce your time to the first gate then give you additional speed throughout the course. Even if you did nothing to improve your skiing after the first gate you could pick up half a second just to the first gate with a better start. Add the time gained by following the other suggestions about moving your turns up the hill and executing better turns and you'll be back to single digits in no time. I had a racer that took nearly two seconds off a one minute DH just by changing his start.

FWIW, your start isn't bad, but it is an easy place to improve. Watch the winners leaving the start. They can't win without a good start, so they should be your visual guide to improving your own start.
post #18 of 20
Thread Starter 

Awesome feedback! 


Start fix is easy.  Will work on that.


Video def says tighten line and get on the panels.  Quicker transitions.


Right turn issues are prob result of crappy left knee.  Not much confidence in that POS.  :(  Right one is ok.  I had allignment this fall. 


Flatten back on tuck.  Easy. 


Good stuff!  Keep it coming.

post #19 of 20
If you don't have confidence in the left knee, make it stronger. Strengthening your legs and core should give you more confidence in your bad knee. As it is now, favoring it is actually putting it more at risk; your left skis is drifting out at the end of your left footed turns and that makes you susceptible to catching an inside edge.

On the tuck, aerodynamics is obviously important. Many of the masters I coach are tuck challenged. They think that the lower their butt, the faster their tuck is however they end up with their chests exposed and catching wind. As was pointed out, you want your back 'flatter', parallel to the snow, so that your chest isn't catching air. You may need to stand a little taller in the legs for that to be able happen depending on your flexibility and body shape. Find the lowest spot you can get your chest while your back is parallel to the snow (hips the same height from snow as the shoulders) and don't go past that. Standing taller in the legs is also good for your turns. It is really hard to make good turns in a full tuck. As is often stated: 'don't sacrifice your turns for your tuck'.

There is debate about a flat back vs. a rounded back. It is up to you, but whatever you choose needs to be comfortable so you can improve the quality of your turns. I tend to arch my back a bit. It is comfortable and my chest is not exposed. Others like to be flat (straight spine from shoulders to pelvis).

Lastly, a good tuck involves having your hands up in front of your face. They don't have to be close to your face, but up and in front so you are just able to see over your gloves. You'll feel a difference between shifting your hands up or down. Up and you won't feel the wind on your face. Down and you do. Since your hands are going to be breaking the wind anyways, let the break the wind for your face as well. You'll also notice that your arms make a nice aero shape in front of your body when your hands are up in front of your face. When they are low, the make a scoop which catches air and forces it into your chest; slowwww.

Good luck!
post #20 of 20

Start is extrememly important to get up up to speed quickly. You can easily lose 1/2 second or maybe more! And yes it was a weak start.Skating twice on the same ski out of the start cannot be very fast???


But remember in most beer leagues it is elapsed time to elapsed time, not who crosses the finish line first.


Tuck turns are a skill all unto themselves.  Felt like you were not generating any speed out of your turns. The course skiing you more than you skiing the course.


Maybe throw the tuck away? Not sure at that speed it helps as much as good clean powerful turns might.

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