or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › "New" skiing style and thoughts about it.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

"New" skiing style and thoughts about it.

post #1 of 71
Thread Starter 

When I was getting back into skiing 4 years ago, I was chatting on ski forums and watching ski videos before my first season back. Trying to learn all I could after about 15-20 years off. 

 

The main thing I heard was that you no longer want to strive to ski with your skis right next to each other, "about" a foot apart or shoulders with apart was the "new" correct way.

 

After what I have seen in 4.5 seasons, nearly 150 days at a handful of different resorts, I don't agree with that at all. If you are (stuck) on the groomers, and want to carve, then that makes sense, and carving can be fun. But anywhere else (steeps, bumps, off piste & pow) that doesn't hold true. The best skiers I see, for the most part, ski with their skis right next to each other.

 

I have heard others say, "that is a crutch", and you should learn to ski with your skis apart and control each ski independently. IMHO, it takes as much or more skill to work them as one.

 

I guess I am just curious what others think about this.

 

Brad

post #2 of 71

I don't think there is a 'correct' way to ski.  I find there are a multitude of skills that you need to have to ski well, and the current crop of parabolic (shaped) skis, and non-cambered (rocker) skis are just new tools.  My 14 year old daughter, who has known nothing but parabolic skis skis with her feet so close, she's already scarred the tips of her new skis.  However, she's strong, compact, and extremely skilled (she's also a gymnast), so she can pull it off.  For those of us lesser humanoid examples, you may need to have a wider stance for stability.  When you're seriously on edge on a steep, you're naturally going to not be skiing like the parallel skiers of the 1960s, where skis were narrower, and you needed to have your skis working together more or less as one.  

 

I actually find on groomers, when I'm stuck on them, I actually keep my feet closer together.  Most of the best skiers I know, vary their foot position depending on conditions and speed.  There is a raft of people who learned to ski before the advent of parabolics, so still have a hard time changing -- in fact a buddy of mine still skills on his parabolics as if they were straight skis.

 

However, when I watch my daughter on bumps, she does widen her stance a bit for stability and uses both edges, and may actually have one ski taking hold over a parallel ski.  

 

Different horses for different courses.

post #3 of 71

IMO there is no definitive answer to your question.

 

But, you don't see racers skiing with the skis glued together do you? I also think it is easier to ski aggressive edge angles with a spread stance. That is not to say you can't do the same with the feet together though.

 

 

 

post #4 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Hall View Post
If you are (stuck) on the groomers, and want to carve, then that makes sense, and carving can be fun. But anywhere else (steeps, bumps, off piste & pow) that doesn't hold true. The best skiers I see, for the most part, ski with their skis right next to each other.

 

That is my observation as well.

post #5 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Hall View Post

The best skiers I see, for the most part, ski with their skis right next to each other.

 

Yep. 

 

 

 

 

 

 By "new skiing style" you meant stuff like this, right?

post #6 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by east or bust View Post

IMO there is no definitive answer to your question.

But, you don't see racers skiing with the skis glued together do you? I also think it is easier to ski aggressive edge angles with a spread stance. That is not to say you can't do the same with the feet together though.







I beg to differ. You are confusing vertical and horizontal separation. Just look at the photos you posted. Of course the skis are separated because the inside leg is flexed in an aggressive turn. Horizontally the legs are very close together, nowhere near shoulder width apart. Take a look at some Marcel Hirscher pix or pretty much any other racer who is killing it in the WC. In the turn there is minimal horizontal separation. If you keep your skis horizontally separated at shoulder width you will be putting significant weight on the inside ski. Some people do this but they are not racing in the WC.
post #7 of 71

My take on it is you need to have the skis together to make better pivot turns.  This was your main tool of choice in older straight skis.  When your turns were unweighted pivots, you keep them together so you can quickly wiggle your skis/edges.  if you were able to reduce your skis to a monoski, the pivot is turning basically onto a single point, so the pivot turn is quicker, versus separated feet where you have a radius that the legs have to spin around to cover the distance.

 

Whereas, for the shaped carved edge turn, the separated feet allows you to exert more skeletal force straight down to the edges.  Your average human can perform squats/deadlifts better with their feet apart, which is an analogy of what you are doing in your powerful carved turn.  

 

It's useful to have all the tools in your belt so you can use whatever turn you need, or combinations of them all

post #8 of 71

I'm going to disagree. I'm not going to pretend I am the greatest skier ever but I like to think I hold my own. This is a picture of my track in about 20" of powder you can clearly see the ski separation

 

Additionally on really steep stuff you may think the skis are close together but that is simply a trick of the slope. Flatten out the slope and you will see that the skis are separated. It's not possible to keep both skis in contact with the snow without seperation 

post #9 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toecutter View Post

 

Yep. 

 

 

 

 

 

 By "new skiing style" you meant stuff like this, right?

 

I think by 'skiing' he means moving through snow on skis.

post #10 of 71

I'm going to outright disagree with the premise. I ski mostly bumps, trees, off piste type stuff (when I can). I nearly never ski with my skis glued together or even close to it, with one exception. When I have a dead straight, fall line bump line, I will tighten up and go at it with a zipper line. That is literally the only time when my skis are close together. Furthermore, I spend over 50 days a year on snow, about half of that teaching lessons, or taking high level clinics. I haven't seen a high level skier who typically skis with his feet together in many, many years. I honestly believe that your concept of who the 'best skiers' are is skewed by your hiatus. You see old style skiing and interpret it as 'good'. You see new style skiing, and it does not translate in your mind as 'good' skiing. However, the new technology and new style allows for more versatility, maneuverability, speed, and control than could ever be found in old style equipment or style.

post #11 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abox View Post

 

I think by 'skiing' he means moving through snow on skis.

 

LOL, well done.

post #12 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post

I'm going to outright disagree with the premise. I ski mostly bumps, trees, off piste type stuff (when I can). I nearly never ski with my skis glued together or even close to it, with one exception. When I have a dead straight, fall line bump line, I will tighten up and go at it with a zipper line. That is literally the only time when my skis are close together. Furthermore, I spend over 50 days a year on snow, about half of that teaching lessons, or taking high level clinics. I haven't seen a high level skier who typically skis with his feet together in many, many years. I honestly believe that your concept of who the 'best skiers' are is skewed by your hiatus. You see old style skiing and interpret it as 'good'. You see new style skiing, and it does not translate in your mind as 'good' skiing. However, the new technology and new style allows for more versatility, maneuverability, speed, and control than could ever be found in old style equipment or style.

 

This 100%. Ankles together is not how modern skis are designed to work. Period. Running a zipper line in moguls are really the last bastion of skiing like this.

 

And saying spaced out skis is an intermediate technique, and that it takes more skill to keep them together is wrong. Much harder to space them out and effectively use both skis in the turn.

 

You will see exactly zero professional skiers in any discipline other than moguls ski with ankles together.  In most cases, you will see pro skiers get much more distance between the skis during the turn than an average advanced skier.

post #13 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by docmartin View Post


I beg to differ. You are confusing vertical and horizontal separation. Just look at the photos you posted. Of course the skis are separated because the inside leg is flexed in an aggressive turn. Horizontally the legs are very close together, nowhere near shoulder width apart. Take a look at some Marcel Hirscher pix or pretty much any other racer who is killing it in the WC. In the turn there is minimal horizontal separation. If you keep your skis horizontally separated at shoulder width you will be putting significant weight on the inside ski. Some people do this but they are not racing in the WC.

From what I read from the OP, we are talking about feet, not legs. Naturally, the greater the edge angle, the closer your legs will be to each other. In my post I was referring to skis and feet.

 

Usually the people I see on groomers with their boots tied together the whole time are park and riders. Bumps are a different story for the reason mentioned above.

 

Edit: sorry for the redundancy with the post above, composing at the same time I guess.

post #14 of 71

I see a fair amount of expert back seat style skiers with their ankles glued together.  Until you can achieve the 9th level of calf busting you won't be able to master the epitome of ski finesse I suspect OP is addressing here.

 

On the serious side, good bump skiers also have some separation but just at the apex of the arcs, not in transition.. skis come together in transition... It's happening so fast it is harder to notice the separation but it is happening

post #15 of 71
I think that this thread is confusing stance width & independent leg action.

JF
post #16 of 71

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by docmartin View Post


I beg to differ. You are confusing vertical and horizontal separation. Just look at the photos you posted. Of course the skis are separated because the inside leg is flexed in an aggressive turn. Horizontally the legs are very close together, nowhere near shoulder width apart. Take a look at some Marcel Hirscher pix or pretty much any other racer who is killing it in the WC. In the turn there is minimal horizontal separation. If you keep your skis horizontally separated at shoulder width you will be putting significant weight on the inside ski. Some people do this but they are not racing in the WC.

Doc

If you look closely at racer #11, in the first (up hill) image you can see he is starting his turn with his feet roughly shoulder width apart.  In the apex of the turn, the foot and leg separation is constrained because of the high edge angle he needs.  I haven't coached racing in a long time, but we never taught a narrow stance, and hardly ever talked about stance width at all. 

The answer is that you need to adjust your stance to make the most effective use of your skills.  Most skilled skiers find a narrow stance more effective in moguls, crud and other variable conditions, and a wider stance useful on groomers or in gates.

 

BK

post #17 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post

I think that this thread is confusing stance width & independent leg action.

JF

 

This^^^

 

Even in the old days of straight skis (circa 1980), I was coached and, in turn, coached others in independent leg action. I will say I was coached to wide-track about shoulder width apart but I didn't necessarily take it to that level. So long as the legs/feet were acting independently, we could get a carved (for the day) turn out of the skis. With your feet glued together, you're forced to pivot and the carve is nearly impossible to make. Now, with at least some of the equipment we have, you have to have some separation of the feet due to the radical sidecuts of the skis. Also, the technique I use on groomed to carve isn't really very different from what I do in semi-deep pow. The techniques have changed because now, most skiers can actually carve a turn rather than pivot.

post #18 of 71

This thread makes me think the OP is passing judgment on a ski technique that he really doesn't understand at all. http://www.epicski.com/t/115715/sad-and-disappointing-in-my-new-2012-opus

 

Seems like he is on his first modern ski (Sugar daddies might as well be a straight ski with their almost total lack of sidecut- something like a 39M radius- Great on powder but pretty much forget about carving, I own a pair...). Doesn't seem to be taking to it too well, at least as of 2 months ago.

post #19 of 71

Easy:

 

Good skiers adjust to suit their needs.  Width offers stability and ability to get high edge angles....narrow offers agility.  Watch good SL racers...they adjust their stance as they go..wider in some parts of the course, and narrower in tight quick sections like a flush.

 

Now...one notable exception to width offers stability is on "variable" terrain or "off-piste" conditions.  Here we want a narrower stance since it provides 1 platform to balance on...in powder we ski more 2 footed for more "float"..although this varies with ski width and snow conditons of course...and in bumps we want our feet together so the variation between left and right foot is minimised...ie we dont want 1 foot going up a bump, while the other is going down into a trough.

post #20 of 71

There may also be another bias here:

The folks that are ripping it down the ski hill with their feet close together learned to ski a long time ago and so they are all very experienced by now and are able to make that technique look good on any pair of skis.

Of the folks using a wider stance, some of them are experts but a larger portion of them are beginners.

 

The end result is that after watching a few hundred people at a ski hill, you may assume that the feet-close-together technique is better since everyone using it is pretty good.

post #21 of 71
Quote:

The folks that are ripping it down the ski hill with their feet close together learned to ski a long time ago and so they are all very experienced by now and are able to make that technique look good on any pair of skis.

Of the folks using a wider stance, some of them are experts but a larger portion of them are beginners.

Sorry, gotta disagree.......I'd say most of the folks who are REALLY ripping down the hill are using a wider stance and the skiers with their skis together are skidding their tails and wasting tons of energy with inefficient technique.

post #22 of 71

Once again, the racers are confusing the issue with techniques most people don't use eg. pics of racers making hard turns.  For the average person, feet should generally be a little wider than they used to be, but many people will still keep them a little closer when skiing parallel, even with shaped skis. 

 

You really have to find what works for you.  Learn it all and use what is appropriate at the moment.  Skilled versatility.  :)

post #23 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Amero View Post

im sure it validates the fact that your too pussy to hit a rail to call park skiing not real skiing

 

I think it means he has a real job.

post #24 of 71

i've never heard that suggestion--to keep the skis about 1' apart--as a hard and fast universal rule for all conditions.

in fact many of the instructors i watch (and after many lessons taken) often talk about a varied stance (always in balance) that is adaptable as conditions change.

 

...i think many instructors were referring to getting away from the older european style where your knees were almost together as you sha-shayed 

down the hill on straight skis,...but to now instead have them a bit wider apart...but again be adaptable to conditions.

 

that is what is so beautiful about skiing, just like mtn biking: you have to constantly adjust your ride technique as you move down the hill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Hall View Post

When I was getting back into skiing 4 years ago, I was chatting on ski forums and watching ski videos before my first season back. Trying to learn all I could after about 15-20 years off. 

 

The main thing I heard was that you no longer want to strive to ski with your skis right next to each other, "about" a foot apart or shoulders with apart was the "new" correct way.

 

After what I have seen in 4.5 seasons, nearly 150 days at a handful of different resorts, I don't agree with that at all. If you are (stuck) on the groomers, and want to carve, then that makes sense, and carving can be fun. But anywhere else (steeps, bumps, off piste & pow) that doesn't hold true. The best skiers I see, for the most part, ski with their skis right next to each other.

 

I have heard others say, "that is a crutch", and you should learn to ski with your skis apart and control each ski independently. IMHO, it takes as much or more skill to work them as one.

 

I guess I am just curious what others think about this.

 

Brad

post #25 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post

I think that this thread is confusing stance width & independent leg action.

JF

 


icon14.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

Easy:

 

Good skiers adjust to suit their needs.  Width offers stability and ability to get high edge angles....narrow offers agility.  Watch good SL racers...they adjust their stance as they go..wider in some parts of the course, and narrower in tight quick sections like a flush.

 

Now...one notable exception to width offers stability is on "variable" terrain or "off-piste" conditions.  Here we want a narrower stance since it provides 1 platform to balance on...in powder we ski more 2 footed for more "float"..although this varies with ski width and snow conditons of course...and in bumps we want our feet together so the variation between left and right foot is minimised...ie we dont want 1 foot going up a bump, while the other is going down into a trough.

 


icon14.gif

 

 

PSIA talks a lot about a "functional" stance, and being able to use your legs during turns.  You have to match the stance to the terrain and turns.

 

If your feet and knees are jammed together, you can't really flex and extend your legs independently.  So unless you're in terrain that demands skiing like this -- a zipper line in tight moguls, say -- it's going to limit your options.

 

It's WAY easier to carve with your feet at hip/shoulder width than jammed together.  See the photos of the racers above; the only way to get those edge angles while in a reasonably stacked position is to flex your inside leg more than the outside one, and to do that you need some separation at the feet.

 

In crud or bumps you generally want your feet a bit closer together so they don't get pushed in different directions (like Skidude referred to).

 

In powder it depends on the technique.  If your skis are 'in' the snow you probably want your feet closer together and more evenly weighted, so you don't end up with one foot sinking and the other going up.  If you've got newfangled skis that let you "surf" on top of the snow, you can use a wider stance.

post #26 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Amero View Post

im sure it validates the fact that your too pussy to hit a rail to call park skiing not real skiing

I think you are at the wrong site, let me help you.

 

http://www.tetongravity.com

post #27 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by east or bust View Post

I think you are at the wrong site, let me help you.

 

http://www.tetongravity.com


Maybe http://www.newschoolers.com/ns/forums/forums instead of TGR...

post #28 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias99 View Post

 

In crud or bumps you generally want your feet a bit closer together so they don't get pushed in different directions (like Skidude referred to).

 

I don't find this always true for crud. I've found that having your weight on your downhill leg, which is kicked out, away from your body, allows a jarring bump to be absorbed easier, and keeping your uphill leg loose and mostly unweighted, underneath your body.

 

I think this is for 2 reasons:

1) your downhill leg is fully extended and has the full range of motion for absorbtion

2) your uphill leg is unweighted, and thus, when it gets bumped around, it doesn't directly unbalance your core, as you weight it more, any absorption movements will have direct unbalancing forces directly applied to your core

 

I've found this also true for straightlining crud. A wider stance means you have a larger range of motion for absorption, and both legs will be less directly under your core and will contribute less direct unbalancing forces when hitting uneven terrain.

 

Granted, you still have to analyze the terrain and ensure that one leg isn't hitting one bump, and another leg isn't hitting another bump, but I've found I can ski at higher speeds in crud if I choose lines (paths through the crud) that avoid such situations, and use a wider stance, as opposed to using a narrow stance. You can also use air to your advantage to alter your line to avoid such situations - if you see bump #2 coming that may result in unbalancing forces, you can use a bump #1 prior to air over the said bump #2. This is especially more useful as the day progresses and crud becomes moguls.


Edited by Brian Lindahl - 2/13/13 at 11:03am
post #29 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by John V. View Post

Sorry, gotta disagree.......I'd say most of the folks who are REALLY ripping down the hill are using a wider stance and the skiers with their skis together are skidding their tails and wasting tons of energy with inefficient technique.

 

Let me rephrase:

- The average # of years of experience of someone who skis with their legs together is 20 years (or some other large number)

- The average # of years of experience of someone who skis with their legs apart is 5 years (or some other smaller number, heavily skewed by first year skiers)

 

Therefore, someone may come off the hill saying "Everyone I saw skiing with their legs together seemed to know what they were doing but a bunch of the folks with their legs apart were flailing all over the place." 

post #30 of 71

By 'crud' I am thinking more of a relatively firm and not very bumpy surface covered with relatively dense chopped up snow.  An unweighted ski gets deflected much more easily in those conditions.  Although as you pointed out, an unweighted ski that gets deflected has somewhat less effect on your COM.

 

You can certainly carve at high speed through moguls or chopped up snow, but hitting something unexpected can be... unpleasant.  And you have to be really good at absorption.  Being willing and able to air it out helps.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Skiing Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › "New" skiing style and thoughts about it.