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MA on KevinF

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 

 

It's not that long, but it shows a couple turns which seems to be more then you MA gurus actually need.  smile.gif

 

If anybody is interested in the specifics, this is somewhere on Gondolier at Stowe.  173cm Blizzard Bushwacker skis.

post #2 of 29

Nice skiing Kevin!

 

It is pretty short so I don't see a whole lot, but funny enough I noticed something even before I played the video.  Look at the still image of your video and observe your hand position.  You can see that one hand comes up and the other drops back.  This can lead to some upper body rotational issues (which I don't really see in the video). However, it is also an indicator of a small dead spot in your skiing.  You want to keep a constant rhythm and flow with your upper and lower body throughout the entire turn.

post #3 of 29

Pretty smooth and strong skiing overall. I'd like to see you move into the turn more though. That would look like your body moving forward along the length of the ski, your hips coming over and in front of your feet as you enter the turn. Make sense? It's different than moving up, you do a nice job of staying in an athletic position, The ankles knees and hips open into the turn and you move more forward into your boot cuffs, Pulling one's feet back through transition is helpful too. Being over your feet will increase your ability to manipulate the skis as you wish.

post #4 of 29

Along the same lines, but worded a little differently.  Your shoulders are dipping into your turns.  Pause the video and you'll see that your shoulders aren't level.  Try to keep your shoulders level and let your legs do all the work, this will create upper lower body separation.  You should feel a little pinch in your hip socket (or at least I did when I was working on this) because of the separation.  Create more angles with your upper/ lower body. 

post #5 of 29

Heh, Kevin, I think it's the best skiing I have seen you do... not that I have seen that much.

 

PDX, what do you mean "move into the turn more"  I know for me that committing to the turn by drive forward and on to the outside ski helps.

 

Keep in mind, I am not qualified to comment.

post #6 of 29

I think PDX is talking about the COM.  Being more dynamic with the COM

post #7 of 29
Indeed,but,not knowing the technical background of the reader I'm trying to speak in as plain a language as I can.I tend to think most of the"symptoms"here can be traced to maintaining balance over the feet.it looks to me like he possess good tools to get around the corner but being in great balance would enable him to be even more effective particularly in the top of the arc.
post #8 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxammo View Post

Indeed,but,not knowing the technical background of the reader I'm trying to speak in as plain a language as I can.I tend to think most of the"symptoms"here can be traced to maintaining balance over the feet.it looks to me like he possess good tools to get around the corner but being in great balance would enable him to be even more effective particularly in the top of the arc.

 

Feb 11, 2013

 

Hi pdxamo:

 

Having some knowledge of Kevin and his skiing, it seems that we share some faults in common in our skiing.  I would appreciate maybe more detailed explanation of what I've high lighted in red above?  By "more effective in the top of the arc" do you mean "early edge engagement prior to the fall line"?  If so, why would "great balance" be important to achieve this, with the understanding the "great balance" is the foundation of all good skiing regardless.

 

Thanks and think snow,

 

CP 

post #9 of 29
Sure but please understand my journey is not complete either so forgive any imperfections.I'll consider this an exercise for myself as well.i do however feel confident there is value in what I'm suggesting.
When I see Kevin ski most of the movement is lateral and the mechanism of the edge engagement is the hip moving inside the turn.I believe this is because the balance is generally aft, and sagittal movement is minimal. This makes it very difficult to tip from the lower leg and feet. If Kevin explores increasing this travel with and in front of the ski I think it would be easier to tip and steer from below the hip.
I would guess if you both share this trait that jumping poles laid tightly on the snow or leapers would be quite difficult. either would be a good way to practice especially if one was coached to ensure the correct movements are being employed. Movement starting in the boot(ankles) would be paramount with use of the rest of the supporting joints a close second. Movement to where you are going to be is the focus, jumping ahead not up.
this is where I would start as I believe there has been good coaching on skills to turn, I'd just like to see the body in the best position to use them.
Kevin, I hope this doesn't sound like talking like you're not in the room its meant to be helpful and respectful I sometimes feel awkward on the internet.
post #10 of 29

Feb 11, 2013

 

Hi pdx:

 

Thanks.  I don't know about Kevin, but I started skiing when the mantra was "up/down, up/down", so you can see that this "up" and not "forward" move is deeply ingrained in my skiing and something I'm working hard on to rectify.  I see it as a lifelong obsession along with the "dropping" of the arm on one side, which is a story for another day.

 

Think snow,

 

CP

 

ps: you are correct in that very good coaching has gone into Kevin's skiing.  I think that over the years, I've received some excellent coaching along the way as well.  As for "going" into the future, that is a very good mantra for myself.  Thanks.

 

pps: Kevin, I hope you don't mind my hijacking your threadbiggrin.gif.

post #11 of 29
Thread Starter 

This thread is starting to get interesting.  icon14.gif  I appreciate everyone taking the time to comment.

 

This video was taken on my third straight day of skiing, and I was exhausted from skiing probably 70k vertical over the past 2.5 days.  Part of my rationale for posting this was to see what starts falling apart when my legs are fried.

 

As for pdxammo's comments about the balance point being a little aft -- that's very possible.  I am a huge believer in the "Foot Squirt" concept which has been discussed on these forums ad nauseum.  Simply put, it's the concept that your feet have to travel faster then your core (for lack of a better word right now) and the feet will (should... wink.gif) catch you as you "dive" into the next turn.  It's possible that the "dive" into the next turn just isn't "strong enough" (?) and that leads to what pdxammo is commenting on -- i.e., I'm perpetually a touch back in this video and trying to "catch up"?

 

I should probably get some "not exhausted" video and post that to see if there's any differences, or if I'm just going on wishful thinking.

 

As for some of the other comments about leaning and the hands / shoulders not being level, etc.  I had taken a two day race clinic up at Killington back in December and the coaches there commented that I have a tendency to inclinate vs. angulate through my turns.  That's something I've been trying to concentrate on, or at least I've noticed that when I get into trouble, its invariably because I'm leaning in.  Whether the lean-in is the cause or the symptom is another question...  It seems like all this goes hand-in-hand -- that is, hips level (more angulation) = level shoulders = quieter hands?

post #12 of 29

Kevin as a said to you in Friday (not sure if you heard me) Robin would tell you to take up more space. As I see it, in this case, I'd like to see you reaching to the outside of your turns with your legs. When you Foot-Squirt™, let your legs get longer and move away from you. See how you stay in that same compact ball all of the time? Also, work more on upper-body/lower-body separation both in terms of rotation and in terms of leveling. If you improve one, you will usually improve the other. This would have helped you immensely skiing the bumps on Liftline.

post #13 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

Kevin as a said to you in Friday (not sure if you heard me) Robin would tell you to take up more space. As I see it, in this case, I'd like to see you reaching to the outside of your turns with your legs. When you Foot-Squirt™, let your legs get longer and move away from you. See how you stay in that same compact ball all of the time? Also, work more on upper-body/lower-body separation both in terms of rotation and in terms of leveling. If you improve one, you will usually improve the other. This would have helped you immensely skiing the bumps on Liftline.

 

icon14.gificon14.gificon14.gif.

post #14 of 29
Sorry, double posting to enhance post count.biggrin.gif
post #15 of 29

(Andy Rooney voice) Ya know ..... when Rogan was yelling at us about initiating turns with the weight in the back seat leading to pivoted turn entries?

 

Well, this shot of you coming over the ridge in the run is not about showing the weight back (and the tips of the skis off the snow) leading to a pivot.It does, but you've got an excuse. Can you see how much bend at the waist you have? Can you see how far the hips have to travel to get to the inside of the next turn? Check the next few frames to see how long it takes for you to extend your hips to get them over the skis. From there you lean laterally to get the COM to the inside of the new turn. This is what I see.

 

This is the most counter I see in all of the turns and it does not count because you are countered only against the lifted ski. Your shoulders are countered  to the new outside ski, but your hips aren't. If you had pulled the left foot back to create tip lead and had the hands, shoulders, and hips match the tip lead angle, then you would have been able to let the hips flow forward into the new turn instead of the shoulders (and thus excessive bending at the waist). The hips flowing forward would have meant extending the right leg while flexing the left (aka flex to release). That movement would allow the tip of the left ski to be driven to the snow earlier and get the hips inside of the new turn above the fall line despite going over the ridge. That's what I want to see.

 

This appears to be a poster case for the "pull the foot back and flex to release" crowd. I'd give that a try first only because I've skied with you and I'd like to see how it works in person. Otherwise I'd start with the old picture frame drill to develop steering into counter to prevent the need to pull the foot back and the lift and tip the new inside ski and leapers to develop that flex to release move. That's how I'd get you from what I see to what I want to see.

 

BTW I agree with above comments, especially the best skiing being seen. You are displaying a sense of smoothness and confidence I did not see at Stowe and your stance is more centered. Bad news on the tiredness. Everyone I've videoed displays the same fundamental movement patterns whether they have a good run or a bad run, whether they are tired or fresh. A bad run just makes the issues more obvious.

post #16 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

(Andy Rooney voice) Ya know ..... when Rogan was yelling at us about initiating turns with the weight in the back seat leading to pivoted turn entries?

 

Well, this shot of you coming over the ridge in the run is not about showing the weight back (and the tips of the skis off the snow) leading to a pivot.It does, but you've got an excuse. Can you see how much bend at the waist you have? Can you see how far the hips have to travel to get to the inside of the next turn? Check the next few frames to see how long it takes for you to extend your hips to get them over the skis. From there you lean laterally to get the COM to the inside of the new turn. This is what I see.

 

This is the most counter I see in all of the turns and it does not count because you are countered only against the lifted ski. Your shoulders are countered  to the new outside ski, but your hips aren't. If you had pulled the left foot back to create tip lead and had the hands, shoulders, and hips match the tip lead angle, then you would have been able to let the hips flow forward into the new turn instead of the shoulders (and thus excessive bending at the waist). The hips flowing forward would have meant extending the right leg while flexing the left (aka flex to release). That movement would allow the tip of the left ski to be driven to the snow earlier and get the hips inside of the new turn above the fall line despite going over the ridge. That's what I want to see.

 

This appears to be a poster case for the "pull the foot back and flex to release" crowd. I'd give that a try first only because I've skied with you and I'd like to see how it works in person. Otherwise I'd start with the old picture frame drill to develop steering into counter to prevent the need to pull the foot back and the lift and tip the new inside ski and leapers to develop that flex to release move. That's how I'd get you from what I see to what I want to see.

 

Which is the picture frame drill?  Is that the one where you hold both poles mid-shaft and center something below you and just "keep it there"?  It seems like every time I see somebody doing that drill, they're just banging out windshield-wiper turns...  it seems like an incredibly easy drill to "cheat" at.  Or am I thinking of the wrong thing?  If the picture frame drill is the one I'm thinking of, I'm not sure how it fixes the hip-counter issue?

 

I could always return to my nemesis drill of pivot slips... eek.gif  I know that would please a certain somebody...

post #17 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

Kevin as a said to you in Friday (not sure if you heard me) Robin would tell you to take up more space. As I see it, in this case, I'd like to see you reaching to the outside of your turns with your legs. When you Foot-Squirt™, let your legs get longer and move away from you. See how you stay in that same compact ball all of the time? Also, work more on upper-body/lower-body separation both in terms of rotation and in terms of leveling. If you improve one, you will usually improve the other. This would have helped you immensely skiing the bumps on Liftline.

 

So when you say "take up space" are you referring to the somewhat hunched-over thing I have going from the waist up or that the long leg could be a tot longer and the short leg could be a lot shorter?  (Or both?)  It would seem like long-leg / short-leg work isn't really possible without level hips, which you seem to be saying helps with rotation / counter as well?

post #18 of 29
I'm curious, what do YOU do with your body to perform pivot slips and what is your tactical focus?
post #19 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF View Post

It would seem like long-leg / short-leg work isn't really possible without level hips, which you seem to be saying helps with rotation / counter as well?

 

It does and vice-versa. instead of pivot slips, maybe try another approach like skate to shape.

post #20 of 29
The shoulders dipping into the turn are following what you do with your hands. Keep your hands up after the pole touch.

If you're going for the "foragonal" movement, you're not getting there. You need to open the outside knee more completely (the direction I've received is to try taking the crease out of the pants at the back of the leg) while flexing the inside knee and rotating that femur toward the turn.
post #21 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

The shoulders dipping into the turn are following what you do with your hands. Keep your hands up after the pole touch.

If you're going for the "foragonal" movement, you're not getting there. You need to open the outside knee more completely (the direction I've received is to try taking the crease out of the pants at the back of the leg) while flexing the inside knee and rotating that femur toward the turn.

 

icon14.gificon14.gificon14.gif

 

Hi KB:

 

Opening the outside knee more completely, is this "achieved easier" by shortening the outside leg when one approaches the fall line and thus obtaining the short leg strand of the Long leg/Short leg which Kevin and Eric were discussing?

 

Think snow,

 

CP


Edited by CharlieP - 2/11/13 at 8:19pm
post #22 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF View Post

 

Which is the picture frame drill?  Is that the one where you hold both poles mid-shaft and center something below you and just "keep it there"?  It seems like every time I see somebody doing that drill, they're just banging out windshield-wiper turns...  it seems like an incredibly easy drill to "cheat" at.  Or am I thinking of the wrong thing?  If the picture frame drill is the one I'm thinking of, I'm not sure how it fixes the hip-counter issue?

 

I could always return to my nemesis drill of pivot slips... eek.gif  I know that would please a certain somebody...

Yes, yes, no and yes.

 

What is a pivot slip but windshield wiper turns? But I digress.  Yes that is the drill. Yes it is easy to cheat (that's why having an instructor around to nag you when you cheat is helpful). The difference between picture frame and pivot slips is that in pivot slips the center of mass is supposed to go straight down the fall line. In a picture frame drill the COM needs to move laterally as well. By definition if the picture is framed, then at least the shoulders are countered. If the hips aren't then playing with tip lead in addition to the frame usually gets you there. With pivot slips, the upper body does not feel as "wrong" as with the picture frame drill. The PF drill seems more like real skiing and is thus easier to add the "steer into counter" movement back to your real skiing. But if pivot slips are your nemesis, maybe we should work on those first? bwa ha ha

post #23 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieP View Post

icon14.gificon14.gif
icon14.gif


Hi KB:


Opening the outside knee more completely, is this "achieved easier" by shortening the outside leg when one approaches the fall line and thus obtaining the short leg strand of the Long leg/Short leg which Kevin and Eric were discussing?


Think snow,


CP


The opening of the knee occurs at initiation, CP. It's an ongoing process that should reach maximum extension when you reach the fun line. I'm trying to think of the inside knee movement as tipping the tip into the snow and pulling my heel to my butt without taking the foot off the snow.
post #24 of 29

Feb 12, 2013

 

Hi KB:

 

Thanks for the clarification.  So much to learn and think about.  

 

Think snow,

 

CP

post #25 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieP View Post

Feb 12, 2013

Hi KB:

Thanks for the clarification.  So much to learn and think about.  

Think snow,

CP

Yeah, by the time I understand it all and can apply it all at will, I'll be too old to use it!!!
post #26 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson .... The opening of the knee occurs at initiation, CP. It's an ongoing process that should reach maximum extension when you reach the fun line. I'm trying to think of the inside knee movement as tipping the tip into the snow and pulling my heel to my butt without taking the foot off the snow.

 

I love this.  I don't like referring to it as the FALL line to my beginning adults.  Fun line it is from now on.

 

For that inside knee movement, I think of it as holding the inside foot back under its hip and turning//tipping the foot more and more uphill, feeling all the while the little toe edge of its shovel scribing a line in the snow so the ski goes around and up the hill, right there under me.  The outside ski follows along.

 

It's a funny feeling because the body does nothing but ends up downhill of both skis.

post #27 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

I love this.  I don't like referring to it as the FALL line to my beginning adults.  Fun line it is from now on.


and it's the "WHEEE" line when working with kids.. Especially the ones that are speed junkies!. Entry = UhOh,  Apex = Wheee, Exit = Whew!

post #28 of 29

One thing that stood out for me is your elbow positioning at certain points. This really stands out for me because it is my own personal bugaboo. On a couple of occasions during your turn initiation, your inside elbow is particularly high, so that your shoulders are hunched. When you're doing this, you're leading into the turn with your elbow. To correct this, try bringing the shoulder in closer to the body, and reaching into the turn with the inside hand rather than the inside elbow. The other way to think about this is getting your hands into a position where they are further away from the centerline of your body than your elbows. This will naturally keep the elbows down and the hands out in front.

post #29 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post

One thing that stood out for me is your elbow positioning at certain points. This really stands out for me because it is my own personal bugaboo. On a couple of occasions during your turn initiation, your inside elbow is particularly high, so that your shoulders are hunched. When you're doing this, you're leading into the turn with your elbow. To correct this, try bringing the shoulder in closer to the body, and reaching into the turn with the inside hand rather than the inside elbow. The other way to think about this is getting your hands into a position where they are further away from the centerline of your body than your elbows. This will naturally keep the elbows down and the hands out in front.

 

Freeski, thanks for your thoughts.  For the bolded part, I assume you meant "elbow" not "shoulder"?  For my shoulder to move closer, I'd need to break it again, and I don't really feel any particular desire to go through that again.  smile.gif

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