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Skis ruined by a shop tune? - Page 2

post #31 of 49
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post

i had a similar tune one time at Copper mountain - very aggressive structure that was intended to help

with heavy wet spring snow.


i didn't like it one bit.....

Never needed "help" on spring snow. Some of my favorite skiing (what most refer to as "slush"). Set it and forget it snow. Just like fresh packed pow.

post #32 of 49

I always (well almost) take a 2 week driving trip through New England after the PA mountains are closing. I have been to closing day at Hunter, Windham, MRG, Stowe, Wildcat, Sunday River, and Sugarbush (not all in the same year) as well as many days when they should have been closed at Killington. Hence, I ski in super wet, slush conditions on that trip; When I got new skis, I had an old pair that I considered retiring or giving away ground with a very deep aggressive chevron type grind that really carries water away much better than any other structure I have. The skis are much zippier than any of my others as long as there is visible water rising from the slush. However, in normal snow conditions, they really are not a lot of fun - kind of like turning a car at low speed with no power steering. It was an interesting experiment in truly niche skis for the quiver. 

post #33 of 49
Originally Posted by ianw View Post

[Edit: I'm not the OP]


Having skied the skis that prompted the thread,  I've got a perspective to share. Until I tried them, I would have never believed the effect that the very coarse linear structure had on the feel of the skis on dry snow. Never.


But the side benefit of skiing them in the original messed-up state, the sanded and waxed state, and then the re-done state is that I now really can feel the effect of base structure on the overall feel of a ski.  To be clear it is not so apparent with pure clean carving at speed - it's mainly when the ski is skidding a bit, esp at low/medium speed that they feel really different. 


I "get" the comment by DanoT:  "I've never been much of a fan of stone grinding because it always seems to change the feel of the ski from how it felt before the grind. I occasionally get my skis sharpened by a shop, but specify no stone grind."  


I'm not ready to rule out stone grinding, but I'll always be asking for their finest structure setting on the machine.


I'm 100% sure there are people who see this as more imagined than real, and I'm unconcerned if that is your view. But, if you claim you can feel the effect of 0.5 degree of base edge bevel, then you owe it to yourself if explore this.  Grab that old pair you know well and have as backup but rarely use, and take them in to the shop. Have them put in a nice deep coarse linear structure, keeping away from the metal edges, and skip any polishing or waxing to get the "best" effect. Take them for a run or two on dry snow and get to know them. Take them home and remove some of the structure (maybe on just one ski), and try them another day.  Repeat. You'll see the relationship between the structure and the feel of the ski, and get attuned to that characteristic. The same feel is there in "regular" stone grind finishes too - just a lot more subtle.  And I can now I can actually feel it. 


Go ahead and develop that feel. Don't take anyone's word - try it out for yourself. 

You cannot reduce the base edge bevel of the ski once it is greater than 1 degree without a grind, or some method to bring the edge and base of the skis back to flat.


This idea of tuning your skis with no grind is really not realistic at least once your base edge bevel is excessive.  It is more a matter of getting aproper grind for the snow conditions you will be skiing and properly preparing the ski for it as zentune has explained.

post #34 of 49
Originally Posted by Ilive2ski View Post

Had the same thing happen to me just recently in Tahoe area. The shop did a complete tune. Took 'em out and they were spooky/squerrily, didn't want to change direction. Horrible. The shop had not de-tuned tips or tails. I went in about 4-5 inches and the problem went away. I do my own wax, now I'll be doing edges too.

I would venture to sya 99% of the time it is not the actual tuune or structure, it is the shop dumb asses don't knock off the hanging burr.


You should not have to detune the tip and tail of your skis..  Mine are sharp as a razor from tip to tail and ski smooth as silk.


But the bases are prepped and the edges are highly polished and burr free adn this includes amny different skis with various shapes sizes and sidecuts ranging from 12M up to and including 40M

post #35 of 49

  De-tuning is by and large a relict method from long ago. Sharpen from contact point to contact point...rounded thereafter (a few cm's or so)


post #36 of 49
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

You cannot reduce the base edge bevel of the ski once it is greater than 1 degree without a grind, or some method to bring the edge and base of the skis back to flat.


Flattening a ski  to 0 in 45 minutes without a stone grind:


Gotta clean it out with a file card about every 4-5 minutes though..




Flattening a ski  to 0 in 45 seconds without a stone grind:



eek.gif  It CAN be done, but messing up is REALLY messing up!


But, if you try it without being REALLY experienced with a belt sander and ski tuning you will most definitely total your skis. 

Edited by crgildart - 2/13/13 at 8:09am
post #37 of 49
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

Flattening a ski  to 0 in 45 minutes without a stone grind:


Gotta clean it out with a file card about every 4-5 minutes though..




Flattening a ski  to 0 in 45 seconds without a stone grind:



eek.gif  It CAN be done, but messing up is REALLY messing up!


But, if you try it without being REALLY experienced with a belt sander and ski tuning you will most definitely total your skis. 

Good god, man, REALLY???? A hand operated belt sander is a GRIND, just not a stone grind, and you think you will end with a better outcome with these tools than a $200,000.00 machine.


You've outdone yourself C-dart. This is a prime example of the tail wagging the dog, argh, argh!biggrin.gif

post #38 of 49

I prefer the 45 minutes with a large bastard file to 90 minutes driving to and from a ski shop, and a flatlander ski shop at that!, when a base really needs to be flattened.  And, no natter how you spin it NOT a grind!


Must admit that it has gotten a lot harder to do it that way since the skis got wider.  I have used a belt sander in the past, but only when I was using one daily as a primary means of income.

post #39 of 49
dammit! my phone wont play his vid...i need a play by play wink.gif

post #40 of 49

I guess it's an old dog thing (check my avatar). The hanging burr does make sense tho.

post #41 of 49

What did you say when you dropped them off?


post #42 of 49
Originally Posted by peterw View Post

OK, maybe the title of this thread is a bit exaggerated, but I thought I would share what I recently found out and make it a generic subject that a search will find. A month or so ago I


So, for me, I'll be careful to make it clear if any skis ever do go to a shop, to put in a minimal structure. I can't imagine the negatives of a fine or non existent structure could compare to the potential negatives of a coarse structure.  And if you get a shop tune-up and get back terrible skis - check the base structure!




Visual aid for how coarse linear structure can disrupt edge engagement.



Bit of a visual aid for ya.

post #43 of 49
Originally Posted by getitover View Post

Thanks for the very informative post. As I ski mostly in Tahoe, I have wondered about changing my base structures to coarse in the spring time in order to avoid getting tripped by the "piano wires" in the PM slush. It doesn't sound too practical for the firmer earlier-in-the-day snow. Anyone else with thoughts on this subject?

In the stickier/spring snow around here I like a modified thumb print grind.  Something similar to what I usually have but with a broader texture.  (not sure if I said it in a way that makes sense)

post #44 of 49

Hello, I see it all working in the back shop, and I tune for seven store locations (Hub) and had my share of  "bad Tune" stories, and fixed most of them. I do have three Wintersteiger machines that work very well for me. I do understand about "stoning" a ski too much? that's if a tuner "A" doesn't know how to work the machine, and grinds the heck out of someone's ski, or "B" the technician puts way too much weight on the feed wheel.


I believe that structure is important to a skis ability to channel the moisture from the base as well as allow the ski to glide over the surface of the snow. There are many kids of structures from the type of snow the skis is mostly on? too the type of ski. For example - Most All Mountain skis have a cross hatch structure, and a race downhill ski can have a linear structure to a combination structure. I use a Wintersteiger Sigma S 350, to pre-grind and just to finish the base of the board or ski. I also have a trimjet which is a dual ceramic edger and a basejet, which is a full base p-tex machine. Now I do hand tune race skis for a local race team, and all the edges are done by hand, and polished and finished, and I just use the machine to put a structure on the bases.


So I know when people talk about structure? My customers ask me, what does a structure do to my board or ski? I ask them if they drive in the rain with bald tires? its sorta the same thing. I use the machine to retread the tires to allow the ski or board to track better, and allow the snow to "escape" through the structure. Waxing is just important to the base, and one thing to look for? if the bases have a white powdery look to it? that means the bases are starving for wax and is kinda oxidized and is wanting wax. Bases are very porous and can absorb a lot of wax. A good wax can last at least three days of skiing before it may need a rewax.


So to finish, maintenance is important to equipment in order for the product to ski or perform the way it was manufactured originally. I know I have heard it many times, that my skis don't ski like when I first bought them.

post #45 of 49
One time I decided to have a pair of skis specifically for spring skiing. Had them put in a coarse linear structure and more side bevel than I was used to. Whoa, about killed myself in the AM. First turn could not get the ski to turn without significant work. I did get down the hill, but switched skis and never looked back. I think I should have had them do a cross cut pattern, but basically for the the seasons after that, didn't have the type of spring conditions that warranted special settings, so never revisited the issue. Lesson learned.
post #46 of 49

Typically I don't put a linear structure on a ski especially here in SoCal. We don't get the kind of snow that works for linear patterns. If I do use a linear structure its for a downhill race type of ski, or a Super G ski. Even at that? I usually do a combi structure where I start at the tip and do a linear to start and go into a cross hatch pattern. Depending on snow condition and time of season, I will make the cross hatch to either cold new snow, or late season wet snow. The difference is how course the cross hatch or how deep the structure lays within the base. The main difference during spring season that makes the ski work a little differently? is the type of wax I use, or if someone asks me to change the bevel of the ski? I first ask why they want to change the bevel of the ski, and get as much information from them to understand what changes, if any, needs to be done. Kind of like an auto mechanic when someone brings in there car for service.

post #47 of 49
Heck, I had to hit three shops before they told me they could do anything other than fine linear.
post #48 of 49

I believe you.

I use a coarse and deep linear pattern to restore really bad skis and I charge a lot for that service for three reasons.

1) I have to redress the stone and remove a lot of stone material, then redress the stone back to normal, so I rarely if ever do deep restore tunes , stones aren't cheap)

2) Deep grinds remove edge material that wears out the stone even more.

3) Once that deep restore grind is done I have to spend a lot of time bringing the bases back to smooth.

If you still have the receipt, and the skis with deep coarse patterns you should ask for the shop to regrind them back to smooth.

But be careful. it will take a lot of passes on the stone grinder to do it right and the shop may take shortcuts.

Stone grinds are great and should be done often, the problem is that many shops go way too deep. A light stone grind is often all you need. There are over 1000 different stone structures you can put into a ski (I can do arc patterns, swirls, half arcs, domes, shadows, change depth, change lines per inch, ect...so talking about them is ridiculous). The point of a stone grind and what makes it superior is two things. 1.) it cuts like a chisel to smooth your bases rather than grinding like sandpaper. Smooth bases is what you get. Structures should not be deep 2.) the stone is true and flat.

Edited by HiTunes - 3/28/13 at 10:21pm
post #49 of 49

Was that guy with the belt sander serious? Please Don't anyone try that.

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