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.....What-If Kneebindings? - Page 19  

post #541 of 898
Quote:

Originally Posted by mtcyclist
 

This is hogwash.  I spent 2 days at Snowbasin demoing skis and just about every ski manufacturer was represented and I can tell you that flat skis greatly outnumbered skis with system bindings. 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post

 

I have 3 skis:  Volkl Supersport Allstar, Nordica Steadfast and Icelantic Shaman


I can more than just get by with a new two ski quiver.  The two new skis are the Nordica Fire Arrow 84 EDT in a 168cm and the Atomic Ritual in a 182cm.

 

Wasn't the Volkl Supersport Allstar only available with Volkl's proprietary "piston" binding?  Isn't the Nordica Fire Arrow 84 EDT a ski that can only be purchased with Nordica's binding system?

post #542 of 898

So?  That doesn't prove anything except that I once bought a pair of skis with system bindings and will be buying another pair.  You need to actually go to a ski shop and see what is being offered.

post #543 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

Wasn't the Volkl Supersport Allstar only available with Volkl's proprietary "piston" binding?  Isn't the Nordica Fire Arrow 84 EDT a ski that can only be purchased with Nordica's binding system?

 

12-15 years ago, indeed, system skis were becoming an unfortunate norm. This is most certainly not the case now. I mentioned the 84 EDT earlier in the thread. There's more system stuff in the 'piste oriented/carver' and entry level price point classes, but nearly everything else is flat. If you click 'list' only on your KB data base, there are literally hundreds of ski options for the KB. What's clear is you haven't kept current on the state of ski sales trends, etc... you should see this as great news for your KB cause rather than a point of contention that belies fact.

 

And those Nordicas... The Blizzard/Nordica group doesn't own a binding a la Marker, Look, etc... The chairman should get busy and schedule some meetings.

post #544 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post

So?  That doesn't prove anything except that I once bought a pair of skis with system bindings and will be buying another pair. 

 

Chuckle. It "proves" that "many ski mfgs. are going to packaged systems".  Thought it funny that 33% and now 50% of the skis you recommend and ski on are exclusively integrated bindings.

 

Especially when looking at the mfg's flagshp brand, the Volkl Superstars and Nordica Fire Arrow for example. 

 

When I got my K2's, even though K2 offered the ski "flat", without package bindings, finding it was difficult to find as K2 shipped most of that model with their packaged binding.

 

Just something to be aware of when looking to get KneeBindings.

 

Someone was talking about marketing issues with KneeBindings and the increase in the packaged bindings is part of it.  Lack of marketing partnership with a specific ski manufacturer is another, such as Marker's with Nordica, is part of that also.  Even if people wanted to switch out to KneeBindings, their existing ski may not be able to take it.

post #545 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

12-15 years ago, indeed, system skis were becoming an unfortunate norm. This is most certainly not the case now. I

 

Probably more today than ever before.  Here's Volkl's line up, major brand.  Most of their top end skis, even for novices, come with the integrated binding system.  It makes it harder for independent binding mfgs's like Knee Binding to get sales for new, used or existing skis.

 

post #546 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

Probably more today than ever before.  Here's Volkl's line up, major brand.  Most of their top end skis, even for novices, come with the integrated binding system.  It makes it harder for independent binding mfgs's like Knee Binding to get sales for new, used or existing skis.

 

Nice way to obfuscate. This is a picture of their "on-piste skis. Find the backcountry and slackcounty Volkls and there won't be a system binding in the bunch.

 

If there was a demand for kneebindings there'd be a demand. There isn't, and no amount of obfuscation can try to make a case that isn't there..

post #547 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

Probably more today than ever before.  Here's Volkl's line up, major brand.  Most of their top end skis, even for novices, come with the integrated binding system.  It makes it harder for independent binding mfgs's like Knee Binding to get sales for new, used or existing skis.

 

So are you a political consultant by trade? What you've shown is exactly what I told you, that piste skis and entry level skis are system binding driven, but that nothing else much is. West of the Mississippi, a shop ski wall bears very little resemblance to your photo. In our local shop, for every type of system ski available, there are roughly 5-6 flat skis. Again, you're fact fishing here makes me much less inclined to listen to what you have to say about KB. Clearly you have some sort of personal investment in proving yourself correct in the face of fact. Again, I'm suggesting KB management gets off their rear ends and make a deal with say Noridica and get at least 2 models of skis out in the system catagory. The Nordica avenger would be a great place to start as it's offered both flat and with Vist din10 binding. In the end, there's too much talk and too little real, hard work getting the binding under people's feet. It's demo tent season... Will there be one with a KB logo? Somehow I doubt it. The whole thing sounds seriously underfunded.

post #548 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by snofun3 View Post

Nice way to obfuscate. This is a picture of their "on-piste skis. Find the backcountry and slackcounty Volkls and there won't be a system binding in the bunch.

 

If there was a demand for kneebindings there'd be a demand. There isn't, and no amount of obfuscation can try to make a case that isn't there..


90% of skiers are "on piste" per the industry demographics.  90% of the skis Volkl sells in the 2012-13 line up will be packaged.  As we see with mtcyclist, even top skiers on the top of the line skis skiing whole mountain end up with packaged system 33-50% of the time.

 

Knee Binding is a small mfg, little or no advertising budget, no marketing dollars to pay to ski mfg or ski shops to promote sales, innovative product. A tough market to break into, high entry costs, high mfg. costs, high marketing costs, high install costs for the ski shop as they have to get certified and get a sign off on each install.  I give Knee Bindings a lot of credit for getting started and staying in business.  Even more for having a product that works on helping to prevent ACL injury.

 

Be interesting if one of the binding mfg's wanted to get market edge, bought the patent rights and went on a BIG advertising campaign focusing "Only binding proven to reduce ACL injury".

post #549 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post


90% of skiers are "on piste" per the industry demographics.  90% of the skis Volkl sells in the 2012-13 line up will be packaged.  As we see with mtcyclist, even top skiers on the top of the line skis skiing whole mountain end up with packaged system 33-50% of the time.

 

Knee Binding is a small mfg, little or no advertising budget, no marketing dollars to pay to ski mfg or ski shops to promote sales, innovative product. A tough market to break into, high entry costs, high mfg. costs, high marketing costs, high install costs for the ski shop as they have to get certified and get a sign off on each install.  I give Knee Bindings a lot of credit for getting started and staying in business.  Even more for having a product that works on helping to prevent ACL injury.

 

Be interesting if one of the binding mfg's wanted to get market edge, bought the patent rights and went on a BIG advertising campaign focusing "Only binding proven to reduce ACL injury".

You keep pulling these numbers out of thin air... Your 'facts' bear little to absolutely NO resemblance to what we see on the hills in the PNW.  7-8 pairs of Gotamas sell for every RTM-84.

 

Locally, shops sell out of nearly everything flat in nordica stock before selling 3 pairs of 84 EDT's (which are a great ski by the way, and no, I'm not a fan of the Marker system binding.)

 

In your last sentence, you're starting to sound like someone with a financial interest in selling a product or patent. At the moment, there are no current manufacturers who seem to need the 'marketing edge' of the KB design. Which gets us back to the point you're seeming unwilling to address. Namely that KB isn't willing or able to do the hard and dirty hoof work on the ground necessary to reaching a wider audience. I'd respect them more if they bought a van, did a cross country tour, and just got people out for a day on their product like manufactures large and small did in the early 70's. I'll bet  there are many young men and women who'd love to spend a season as a national 'road' rep.

 

if this whole thread is some sort of an attempt at viral marketing, it's hasn't been very affective.


Edited by markojp - 3/5/13 at 9:46am
post #550 of 898

This discussion about the ratio of 'flat-top skis' to 'system skis' appears to ignore the clear and straightforward market-research provided by SIA (SnowSports Industry America) that shows that there are by far more 'flat-top skis' than 'system skis' at the point of sale and sold-through at retail, each year, over the past several years.

 

Respectfully,

 

Rick Howell

 

Howell™ Ski Bindings

Stowe, Vermont

 

[www.howellskibindings.com]

post #551 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

Many ski manufacturers are bundling bindings with skis and building the skis so they only accept the ski mfg.s binding.

Like how the words you use give you plenty of wiggle room. What's "many?" More than 10%? More than 50%? And of all skis made, or of a particular class of skis, like carvers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

Thanks for confirming that many manufacturers are going with integrated system bindings.

 

Knee Binding has searchable database for skis available without bindings which can mount standard bindings.

Again, the "many," followed by an "are going," which indicates a new trend. Care to quantify? Since you obviously have some viral connection to KB, that should be easy. Curious because all other industry people on Epic have indicated the trend is away from systems. But hey, what do they know compared to you? wink.gif

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

Wasn't the Volkl Supersport Allstar only available with Volkl's proprietary "piston" binding?  Isn't the Nordica Fire Arrow 84 EDT a ski that can only be purchased with Nordica's binding system?

Curious about your age, too. This is a ski made in the period around 2005-2007, as I recall. Owned it. Came with the Piston, yep. No longer among us. And take a gander at Nordica's website, notice the fact that like Rossi, most of its skis are either flat, period, or can be had flat (Rossi calls this "open") or with plates (Nordica calls this "sets"). In fact, you seem to be emphasizing narrower frontside carvers that companies make in comparatively smaller numbers, often with plates, so you can hold to your, ah, point about poor Knee Binding. Most actual ski sales, though, are in the "all mountain" range where skis are either flat or come with a choice. So how hard do you want to bend data to make what is a trivial point at best? th_dunno-1[1].gif Mostly flat skis out there, let it go. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

Chuckle. It "proves" that "many ski mfgs. are going to packaged systems".  Thought it funny that 33% and now 50% of the skis you recommend and ski on are exclusively integrated bindings.

 

Especially when looking at the mfg's flagshp brand, the Volkl Superstars and Nordica Fire Arrow for example. 

The "chuckle" followed by the "proves" is nice, signals irony and/or know-it-all-ness. BTW, some percentage of skis that you pluck out of someone's "recommendation" don't constitute a sample of anything except your fuzzy take on ski sale statistics. And then again with the Superstars as Volkl's "flagship brand?" These must have impressed you at some point and you can't get them out of your head. Hey, maybe you should use the Salomon Pilots as an example! Now there's a trend for you... biggrin.gif

post #552 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

You keep pulling these numbers out of thin air...

 

The ski demographics are from NSGA and available from NSSA.  Not sure why you think the ski industry would kid itself about the data on who are the skiers buying their products.  The numbers have to be right for their companies to survive.

 

Volkl's line up speaks for itself, all their top end skis for experts to racers to intermediates/novices come with the integrated binding system.  Volkl makes a big push in all their marketing for their integrated bindings. Atomic is the same way. Even more so with Atomic as they are Atomic branded bindings.

 

Totally makes sense from a marketing standpoint, ski mfg. adds $300(?) to the price of the ski, buys cheaply in bulk from Marker, makes more money.   The ski shop may have different and conflicting marketing issues, selling bindings and install of bindings increases their sales and profit.  Ski mfg advertises their top skis driving customer to ask for them.  Ski shop steers customer to lower end ski or different mfg. which allows them to install bindings and make more money.  I'd imagine the ski mfg might work out discounts, higher profit ratios, to sell more of their packaged systems.

 

Ski shop owner may see advantage to packaged system in less service shop overhead, no mounting but charge customer same price for adjusting for the boots, less manpower, same profit costs.

 

With Knee Bindings, the opposite, more cost to install it with the training and paperwork sign off.

 

The increase in the integrated ski mfg binding is a marketing hurdle for Knee Bindings.

post #553 of 898

I think he's just a self-styled shill for KB who knows little about what people actually ski outside the midwest.  How can a pair of skis be a "flagship brand?"

post #554 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

Chuckle. It "proves" that "many ski mfgs. are going to packaged systems".

 

BSmeter.gif

 

Just when you thought someone couldn't lose any more credibility, they go and say something like this.

post #555 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
And then again with the Superstars as Volkl's "flagship brand?" These must have impressed you at some point and you can't get them out of your head.

I had the same pair as mtcyclist, the black "tar" covered Volkl Super Sport All Stars with six gold stars.  They were definitely the hot ski at the time, recommended, all the "top ratings".  They had an integrated "piston" system, you could only use them with Volkl provided bindings.  Used them to the point of no more edges to sharpen and had to move on to Head Monsters.  Bent them up in Blowhole at Whistler and hurt my leg. 

 

Time to move again and find binding to prevent ACL.  Led to "top rated" K2 Rictor's which came with integrated system but also available flat.  My local ski shop was early adopter offering the Knee Binding, they still do so they must sell some of them.  I had to buy the "flat" K2's online after a long search as all the local shops had them with the factory binding.

 

So it definitely takes extra effort to get the Knee Binding.  I would guess Knee Bindings are sold 100% to people who put in the extra effort to:

 

A. Find Knee Bindings (they don't advertise much)

B. Find a shop to install them.

C. Find a ski to install them on due many mfg.s top of the line skis coming with packaged binding systems.

 

Those are all marketing hurdles for Knee Binding.

post #556 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

The ski demographics are from NSGA and available from NSSA.  Not sure why you think the ski industry would kid itself about the data on who are the skiers buying their products.  The numbers have to be right for their companies to survive.

 

Volkl's line up speaks for itself, all their top end skis for experts to racers to intermediates/novices come with the integrated binding system.  Volkl makes a big push in all their marketing for their integrated bindings. Atomic is the same way. Even more so with Atomic as they are Atomic branded bindings.

 

Totally makes sense from a marketing standpoint, ski mfg. adds $300(?) to the price of the ski, buys cheaply in bulk from Marker, makes more money.   The ski shop may have different and conflicting marketing issues, selling bindings and install of bindings increases their sales and profit.  Ski mfg advertises their top skis driving customer to ask for them.  Ski shop steers customer to lower end ski or different mfg. which allows them to install bindings and make more money.  I'd imagine the ski mfg might work out discounts, higher profit ratios, to sell more of their packaged systems.

 

Ski shop owner may see advantage to packaged system in less service shop overhead, no mounting but charge customer same price for adjusting for the boots, less manpower, same profit costs.

 

With Knee Bindings, the opposite, more cost to install it with the training and paperwork sign off.

 

The increase in the integrated ski mfg binding is a marketing hurdle for Knee Bindings.

 

Volkl skis that sell locally... mantra, kendo, shirt, gotama, aura, kenja, kiku.... These are all flat. I sell them. I'm not at liberty to give numbers. Our top selling volkl system skis are the rtm 84 and v-work. They represent roughly 8-10% of total volkl sales.  With Rossi, it's even less. 

 

Ski shops sell what will move out the door. System bindings still require training, certification of the tech, and release testing before they leave the shop. Sure, they're nominally easier to set up, but there's no less legal responsibility/liability employee training involved other than not having to learn to use a drill and jig, and even that isn't difficult.

 

Flat Rictors are not rare. I'd say we do about 50/50 flat and system of that particular ski. Sorry you couldn't find them locally, but extrapolating your experience to a national norm is silly.

 

 Why is it so difficult  to acknowledge that you really don't know what the industry has going on? 

post #557 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcyclist View Post

I think he's just a self-styled shill for KB who knows little about what people actually ski outside the midwest.  How can a pair of skis be a "flagship brand?"

 

 

post #558 of 898

Indeed, a nice ski. Cool technology and really interesting to see the carbon stuff making its way into the '14 katana. The v-works is volkl's flagship piste oriented ski. For west of the Mississippi, I'd guess the mantra outsells it 20:1.

post #559 of 898
Quote:

Originally Posted by markojp View Post


Our top selling volkl system skis are the rtm 84 and v-work. They represent roughly 8-10% of total volkl sales. 

 

Ski shops sell what will move out the door. System bindings still require training, certification of the tech, and release testing before they leave the shop. Sure, they're nominally easier to set up, but there's no less legal responsibility/liability employee training involved other than not having to learn to use a drill and jig, and even that isn't difficult.

 

Flat Rictors are not rare. I'd say we do about 50/50 flat and system of that particular ski.

 

Thanks for confirming the facts on many ski mfgs. exclusively selling their top end skis with integrated bindings and that even those who don't, the K2 example, ship with a 50/50 mix of factory bindings and flats. It was end of the year purchase so the flat K2's were hard to find.

 

As to what moves out the door at ski shops, I'm sure that it is budget driven in many cases, profit ratio driven also for the ski shop.  What brands and setups they make the most money on, what brands they carry, what brands they sell the most of for volume discounts.

 

Only point here is relative to Knee Bindings, the market forces are against them from the many integrated systems, to the advertising and marketing costs, to the retail placement issues to the added cost to the ski shop in getting certified and installing the Knee Binding.

post #560 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

Thanks for confirming the facts on many ski mfgs. exclusively selling their top end skis with integrated bindings and that even those who don't, the K2 example, ship with a 50/50 mix of factory bindings and flats. It was end of the year purchase so the flat K2's were hard to find.

 

As to what moves out the door at ski shops, I'm sure that it is budget driven in many cases, profit ratio driven also for the ski shop.  What brands and setups they make the most money on, what brands they carry, what brands they sell the most of for volume discounts.

 

Only point here is relative to Knee Bindings, the market forces are against them from the many integrated systems, to the advertising and marketing costs, to the retail placement issues to the added cost to the ski shop in getting certified and installing the Knee Binding.

 

Whoa Nelly! We sold roughly 50% of ONE MODEL as a system. You've extrapolated that somehow to mean that's what K2 shipped and infer that 50% of all K2 skis sold are system skis. I have no idea and neither do you about what percentage of flat vs system of the Rictor was ordered by retailers from K2. And while the Rictor is a nice ski, it's not their top end ski of their offerings.

 

"... added cost to the ski shop in getting certified and installing the Knee Binding."        Again, I've addressed this. KB has no disadvantage relative to any other binding maker. Matter of fact, as their product line is smaller, it would be less so.

 

And again, KB might make a very nice pairing with something like the Nordica Avenger, and no, KB isn't going to sell Nordica their product at full retail. It doesn't work that way.  KB will make a small margin, but more importantly, they'll get their product on a ski.

 

You know, great manufacturers get to be at the top because they work very hard starting from the ground up. Share and reputation accrues over time and only with a lot of very hard work. I hear only excuses as to why KB isn't a smash hit, and that tells me there's a defeated company culture that lacks the simple passion needed to hit the road with their better mouse trap. Vision helps you look forward and is indeed necessary, but in the end it's the feet that get us there otherwise we're stuck in the proverbial armchair. I don't see any marching on KB's part, but I do see  great  potential in a partnership with Laz-y-boy.


Edited by markojp - 3/5/13 at 11:20am
post #561 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

One of the skis sold in the largest number were the blizzard bonefide. The 180 was gone mid January. The rest by the beginning of February. We got about 20 pair of 2014's... They lasted about 10 days. They're flat. Only.

 

Bonefide was the hot ski this year, winning all the ski media review competitions.  Volkl Super Sport All Star was in its year and that was integrated binding only.  While Blizzard ships as flat it does promote Marker Griffon Bindings with Bonafide.   I'd guess most people don't pay attention to the binding. If it comes integrated, fine. If something else promoted by ski shop, fine.

 

We do see more and more of the ski mfgs (Atomic and Volkl examples) who's top line products are integrated only.  

 

With Knee Bindings customers likely to be higher end skiers, skiing more and looking at the higher end gear, the increase in the marketing of the integrated bindings at the top end presents a marketing problem for Knee Binding.   

 

Quote:

 

Originally Posted by markojp View Post

 

The rictor is nice, forgiving all mountain front side ski. 

 

A fabulous ski.  I mostly ski off piste and bumps for fun and to get better.  Rictor was top rated a couple years ago, similar to Bonafide today. Funny reading the reviews today for the same ski.  It gets dissed for "been around a while" "no changes".   The industry, mfgs and media, definitely feed off the latest greatest.

 

The K2 Rictor, while available as a flat, now comes with a color coordinated binding.  If I wasn't into Knee Binding for safety, I'd definitely want the factory installed binding.

 

post #562 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

Bonefide was the hot ski this year, winning all the ski media review competitions.  Volkl Super Sport All Star was in its year and that was integrated binding only.  While Blizzard ships as flat it does promote Marker Griffon Bindings with Bonafide.   I'd guess most people don't pay attention to the binding. If it comes integrated, fine. If something else promoted by ski shop, fine.

 

 

You should know that sales people get no reward or spiff from Blizzard for selling their skis with Marker bindings. I'd say most go out the door locally with Look/Rossi, and Marker second in preference. And please, stop talking about 7 year old skis. What was, was. What is, is. Let's keep the conversation in the present and future. The latter is where KB should be focused as even the present is much too late.

post #563 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

 

A fabulous ski.  I mostly ski off piste and bumps for fun and to get better.  Rictor was top rated a couple years ago, similar to Bonafide today. Funny reading the reviews today for the same ski.  It gets dissed for "been around a while" "no changes".   The industry, mfgs and media, definitely feed off the latest greatest.

 

 

Glad you like it. Sounds like you've gotten your money's worth. 

post #564 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

 

 And please, stop talking about 7 year old skis. What was, was. What is, is. Let's keep the conversation in the present and future. The latter is where KB should be focused as even the present is much too late.

Past is prologue. The 7 year old Volkl's only came up because mtcyclist was nitpicking "many mfgs selling skis with integrated bindings" and it was amusing and instructive that a good proportion of his own skis, from 7 years ago to the present, were only sold with integrated bindings.

 

Since the current trend is more top end skis with integrated bindings (Volkl and Atomic examples) and with Knee Bindings market top skiers, it does mean an additional market hurdle for Knee Bindings, present and future.

 

Does your shop sell Knee Bindings?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Howell View Post

This discussion about the ratio of 'flat-top skis' to 'system skis' appears to ignore the clear and straightforward market-research provided by SIA (SnowSports Industry America) that shows that there are by far more 'flat-top skis' than 'system skis' at the point of sale and sold-through at retail, each year, over the past several years.

 

 

But with the top end, flagship, models sold only as integrated and with Knee Binding and Howell Bindings in the future selling to skiers more likely to go for high end skis, the fact of integrated bindings on top end skis is going to create a marketing barrier for a top end binding seller.


Edited by Eagles Pdx - 3/5/13 at 12:14pm
post #565 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

Since the current trend is more top end skis with integrated bindings (Volkl and Atomic examples) and with Knee Bindings market top skiers, it does mean an additional market hurdle for Knee Bindings, present and future.

 

What are you blathering about?  Volkl's top selling ski over the past several years is definitely the Mantra, which is flat.  So is the kendo, which has also been popular.  Their award winning ski this year, The Shiro, is also flat.

 

Atomic's darling of the season is the Automatic, which is flat.  The Bent Chetler has been very popular for a while now - it's flat.  So is the theory, blog, etc. etc. etc.

post #566 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post

 

What are you blathering about?  Volkl's top selling ski over the past several years is definitely the Mantra, which is flat.  So is the kendo, which has also been popular.  Their award winning ski this year, The Shiro, is also flat.

 

Atomic's darling of the season is the Automatic, which is flat.  The Bent Chetler has been very popular for a while now - it's flat.  So is the theory, blog, etc. etc. etc.

 

You might be confusing top end skis with top selling. Clearly Volkl and Atomic top end skis per Volkl and Atomic (see their website), have integrated bindings.

post #567 of 898

words.gif

post #568 of 898

I've seen both of their websites. You're going to have to share your definition of top end... because I'm pretty sure no one else has any idea what you're talking about.

post #569 of 898

In my mind, there isn't such a creature as a 'top end' ski, only the right ski for the conditions and geography of the day. The v-works, as nice as it is,  it's usually the Mantra for the west with the shiro for a powder ski. I don't know that I've seen anyone under 50 on either v-works or the rtm 84.... That seems to be its market locally. It's not a criticism, but only an observation.

post #570 of 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

In my mind, there isn't such a creature as a 'top end' ski, only the right ski for the conditions and geography of the day

 

In ski manufacturer's reality, they definitely have top end skis, advertised with all their best tech innovations and a price tag to match.

 

V-Werks RTM 84 Carbon, aramid and titanium combine for the ultimate performance ski. Imagine taking the award-winning characteristics of the RTM 84 and applying them to a ski that is 15% lighter, and even more stable at higher speeds, and you have the V-Werks.  Light weight technology that's as thrilling as it is beautiful. $1,575...

 

with binding of course...Volkl's "flagship" and highest priced ski.

 

Both Volkl and Atomic's top end skis, both with binding are sold as "all mountain" also. While a few skiers may have several skis, most skiers have one ski and want and need it to cover all their skiing.

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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › .....What-If Kneebindings?