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Getting low and creating an imbalance for ejecting into the next turn - Page 2

post #31 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

I like to tell myself  "wait for it" as I come out of transition and build my angles. Is this a carved turn or I suck.

   Looks like you were patient at the top of the turn, allowed the forces to build thru the apex..outside is more heavily weighted, turn shape looks nice. Hard to tell from the camera angle, but it appears that you began a progressive release towards transition alsosmile.gif.      

   

 

  Makes me want to ski now...thanks a lot, sliderhissyfit.gif..............biggrin.gif

 

    zenny

post #32 of 51

Thank you. Your opinion and others here carry alot and with that it's off to the hill.smile.gif

post #33 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

 I can also achieve those angles on firm, "hero" carving snow (just was tryin' to be humble in front of ChuckT--you made me blow my coverrolleyes.gif).

 

You are very kind, zenny. But there is no need to be humble for me. You have deep experience and give good advice. I was thinking of you when I said I got the wisdom of slowing down. I'm a bit of a geek and want to apply my own thinking and reasoning which can be wrong as evident here.

 

Take this "slow down" thing, for example. I have heard it often in connection with doing more drills. I always feel that's very logical, but not very fun. I'm out to maximize fun on the slopes which to me requires doing just enough drills   to get the feeling for the movement in question then improve by just having fun skiing. I know I will progress faster with more focus on doing drills, but I am content with improving less quickly but having more fun. So, "slow down" to me was like doing more drills. I didn't realize that skiing fast wouldn't just slow my progress (which would be OK with me since I was having a lot of fun), it will never get me to where I want to be.

 

You guys all knew this. In fact, Eric mentioned I was above the maximum speed and wasn't carving. But embarrassingly, I glossed over it when I read it. It took Jamt's cosine to knock sense into my geeky self. It was a moment of holy crap! Of course! I have never carved in my life, not thinking straight. I think in my skiing journey this moment is up there with the day I tried the "Ghost Move" and was thrilled with what it did to my skiing.

 

Jamt, I have a suggestion for you. Instead of calling it drifting or "turning assisted by the sidecut", you should call it "sidecut-assisted turning". It sounds more physics-y (a la trap-assisted tunneling). My old thesis adviser used to joke that you could charge higher consulting fee using fancier terminologies.

post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

Thr biggest thing i see is you are inclining into the turn and that simply won't let you edge the skis more. You need to angulate, or break at the hip a lot, to the point where you try to keep your upper body vertical to the slope and that will allow the lower body to get a lot lower, edging the skis to those big angles. It will also help you hold an edge as you create those angles. The photo of Hirscher i just posted in the other thread tells you what i mean.

Do side crunches at home: lay on a side, have someone hold your legs and you lift your upper body up. The same crunch you must experience on the slopes at extreme angles smile.gif

The other thing that allows your hips to get low inside the turn is called coiling, used to be separation, also known as counter: twist your upper body and hips a bit to the outside of teh turn - clearly visible in the Lindsey sequence above.

You also have to get lower on average

So here's a progression for you

Outside boot touch, inside hand points to the outside of the turn
Same as above, except touch both boots in transition
Drag both poles on snow - make sure they both are firmly pushed into the snow and there is spray of snow coming from their tips. They must be equally dragged regrdless of the turn - shold help you also keep upper body vertical in the turn

Remember, the more you crunch, the bigger the angles at the snow: physics wink.gif

Do those until you are happy with the outcome, let your inner critic guide you, take more video and we'll take it from there...

This post is amazing, thank you for posting it!

 

When you say side crunches, do you mean like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlzoVGu88_o but with someone holding your legs instead of moving the legs up with the body?

post #35 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by redbridge View Post

This post is amazing, thank you for posting it!

 

When you say side crunches, do you mean like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlzoVGu88_o but with someone holding your legs instead of moving the legs up with the body?

thanks - yeah, that's the one. you will get an idea of the crunch you must feel when at higher angles - since you will essentially do just that to keep your upper body from following the lower body in the inclination.

 

make sure that, on skis, it's done at the hips though, as low as possible - not all at or above the waist as in that video: when on the floor, the hip is fixed while on skis, the legs are "fixed"... if you look at this photo (of an "ideal" that we, mere mortals, can only dream to achieve), you see that the hips are no longer aligned with the legs, but more with the upper body, where the inside hip is lifted a lot, participating in the crunch:

 

 

 

 

cheers,

Razie


Edited by razie - 2/11/13 at 9:50am
post #36 of 51

Excellent, thanks so much for the advice!

post #37 of 51
Thread Starter 

My last day of the season with a video. Comparing this to the video at the beginning of the thread, I think I made some progress. Your comments and criticisms are much appreciated. One of the biggest, if not the single biggest, problems for me is that my perception is quite uncalibrated. Please have at it.

 

post #38 of 51

Looks like you've gotten a better idea about angulating than in your earlier video--that's good. 

 

In transition, you step from old outside ski to the new outside ski, with an abrupt slam on the edges and abrupt skid into the new turn. Your arms are extended out like a tightrope walker to try and counteract the jarring forces you're probably feeling in each turn and maintain balance.

 

There's a good opportunity to bring the speed down, improve your balance, and learn to steer skis through the transition using your lower joints. As you learn to do so, you'll be more dynamic, maintain consistent turn shape, maintain a more consistent speed throughout the turn, feel less jolted front-back/side-side, and have a smoother ride. But you're definitely starting to angulate and create some upper/lower body separation, which is a good thing.

 

Carved turns are clean and consistent. Try to ski the slow line fast for a while - work on rollerblade turns on green runs keeping your upper body stable, poles dragging through the snow around your binding's toepiece (out to the side). Learn to do some javelin turns, steering your outside ski under your free ski. And above all else, get feedback as you do these exercises--either from an instructor in person, or by videoing yourself.  

 

I'd also suggest you take a look at your poles. It could be the angle, or you might just be crouching a lot throughout your turns. But they look 25% too long.

post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

thanks - yeah, that's the one. you will get an idea of the crunch you must feel when at higher angles - since you will essentially do just that to keep your upper body from following the lower body in the inclination.

 

make sure that, on skis, it's done at the hips though, as low as possible - not all at or above the waist as in that video: when on the floor, the hip is fixed while on skis, the legs are "fixed"... if you look at this photo (of an "ideal" that we, mere mortals, can only dream to achieve), you see that the hips are no longer aligned with the legs, but more with the upper body, where the inside hip is lifted a lot, participating in the crunch:

 

 

 

 

cheers,

Razie

^^^ that is a great still of amazing hip use and spinal mobility

 

 

We use a basic pelvic tilt exercise in sidelying to cue people into their pelvic control and rib mobility relationships.  A more advanced exercise that would help with the sensory development would be to ad in single or double hip rotation. 

 

Lying on your side, bend hips and knees to 90*, similar to the pic above right leg position

begin with top leg hip internal rotation(llift the foot and lower leg to ceiling)/feel how the pelvis responds/differentiate it by stopping the pelvis then adding the pelvis

with the top leg and foot lifted then add lifting the lower leg foot up to meet the top leg (lower leg hip now externally rotating)/ feels the difference in the pelvis

switch sides/compare the quality

 

this is all done you can go up the chain to the shoulder blades and add them in to see how they help the rib and spinal mobility

 

go ski and see if you find those sensations in the turns.

post #40 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post

^^^ that is a great still of amazing hip use and spinal mobility

 

 

We use a basic pelvic tilt exercise in sidelying to cue people into their pelvic control and rib mobility relationships.  A more advanced exercise that would help with the sensory development would be to ad in single or double hip rotation. 

 

Lying on your side, bend hips and knees to 90*, similar to the pic above right leg position

begin with top leg hip internal rotation(llift the foot and lower leg to ceiling)/feel how the pelvis responds/differentiate it by stopping the pelvis then adding the pelvis

with the top leg and foot lifted then add lifting the lower leg foot up to meet the top leg (lower leg hip now externally rotating)/ feels the difference in the pelvis

switch sides/compare the quality

 

this is all done you can go up the chain to the shoulder blades and add them in to see how they help the rib and spinal mobility

 

go ski and see if you find those sensations in the turns.

 

Got video, Chad?  I'm having trouble visualizing this one.  

post #41 of 51
An old description of getting lower is to pull the inside foot as high as you can, but keep it on the snow.
post #42 of 51

LF- this is the closest I could find.  It shows the body position and rib and pelvis relationship at least. Instead of his mob techniques, just picture lifting the foot on top away from the bottom foot, keeping the knees together. The rotation in the hips will influence the pelvis, the pelvis influences the ribs, and so on. You can add lifting the lower foot to meet the upper one to increase the hip effort, the pelvic effort, and spinal strength. hope that helps.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yoSH6pf1gw

post #43 of 51

    Hey ChuckT!  I agree with Metaphor...looks like you're developing some decent angulation--more so than in your other video. That's great! Don't try to add it artificailly, ie, too early in the turn. Inclining at the top of the turn is just fine--add angulation later in the turn.  Also, it looks like you are employing an exaggerated little toe tipping move,  or "step into space" as my coach introduced it to me many moons ago. If this is indeed your intent, I think you are extending through your transition too much for it. It's best employed in after flexed transitions because you can tip the inside higher up on edge if your knee is flexed more. Doing it while extended is okay I guess--but I think it may be partly to blame for the "abrupt slam on the edges" Metaphor notes. Your body is in effect falling a little to0 far while not supported by your inside. 

 

   Once again I would advise that next year you choose a gentler slope--and try no to rush things. All in all though, a noticeable improvementicon14.gif...smile.gif

 

  zenny


Edited by zentune - 4/30/13 at 6:56pm
post #44 of 51
Thread Starter 

Thanks zenny for the encouragement and everyone else for your input. Yes, I still rushed things and my timing and intensity were a bit out of whack. I am still groping around with the sensation of an edge locked turn and try to calibrate my perception with what is actually happening. Too bad I couldn't have more days on snow, but I do feel I learned new, important concepts here that should make my skiing much better next season. Ciao

post #45 of 51

Chuck, Zenny gives good advice. Two biggest problems IMO is that you are still rushing and extending at the wrong time. 

Re-read the patience thread.

 

Regarding the extension. I suppose since you have a very explicit lift of the old stance leg you are trying to do something like the super phantom. However, as Zenny touches upon, unless you have really high edge angles you should not extend the new inside leg until after flat. Now you push off of the old inside, and this is also part of the reason why your ski gets lifted so high off the snow.

Just let this leg maintain about the same flex as in the turn, and then after edge neutral let it extend naturally as the CoM and skis diverge. Then when the leg is more or less fully extended and pressure starts to build you add what you would call CA and CB. 

Note that it is a very common mistake to extend the old inside when trying to get pressure off the stance leg like in SP/OLR. You probably have your mental focus on bending and tipping the old stance leg, and don't notice that you are pushing the old inside/new outside, but you need to focus on the new outside as well. It is not all "phantom".

post #46 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Then when the leg is more or less fully extended and pressure starts to build you add what you would call CA and CB. 

 

IMO this timing is late. From start of pressure to start of release is roughly 2 or 3 tenths of a second. Some of the top WC racers may be strong and fast enough to pull this off but few others. Add it earlier so you are ready to get max ski performance when the pressure builds.

 

Two of the best.

 

 

post #47 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by NECoach View Post

 

IMO this timing is late. From start of pressure to start of release is roughly 2 or 3 tenths of a second. Some of the top WC racers may be strong and fast enough to pull this off but few others. Add it earlier so you are ready to get max ski performance when the pressure builds.

 

 

The clips you provided show increasing angulation through the turn and that is what I was suggesting...

 

The problem with committing too soon with a lot of angulation is that when the pressure phase starts you will immediately have a balance that pushes you towards the outside of the turn. You will not get high edge angles unless you really commit into the turn with momentum from the previous turn. This may be necessary in racing sometimes, but very intimidating for a recreational skier. 

In practice the angulation is continuous and starts earlier than the start of pressure, but if the problem is that angulation is thrown in too early it is fine to say that it should be delayed..

post #48 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

The clips you provided show increasing angulation through the turn and that is what I was suggesting...

 

The problem with committing too soon with a lot of angulation is that when the pressure phase starts you will immediately have a balance that pushes you towards the outside of the turn. You will not get high edge angles unless you really commit into the turn with momentum from the previous turn. This may be necessary in racing sometimes, but very intimidating for a recreational skier. 

In practice the angulation is continuous and starts earlier than the start of pressure, but if the problem is that angulation is thrown in too early it is fine to say that it should be delayed..

 

SL and GS turns are so fast the common problem is too little angulation when it is needed. I have never seen a racer achieve too much angulation too soon.

post #49 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by NECoach View Post

 

SL and GS turns are so fast the common problem is too little angulation when it is needed. I have never seen a racer achieve too much angulation too soon.

One variant is called park and ride. Throw in all at ones and you are stuck in fixed position.

Agree thought that in experienced racers it is not common, but that is because they have good timing, not because they cannot angulate faster.

post #50 of 51
I think Jamt was refering to Chuck's issue, not WC skiers.
post #51 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckT View Post

I mean getting my hips close to the snow. I hope to have even more fun by doing that, skiing more dynamically on groomers. I don't know what to do to achieve that. The drills razie mentioned in the other thread are probably good for me. I will try them next time I have a chance to go skiing again. I just learn about them a day too late.

Hi, Chuck

 

 Tip the inside foot, knee & hip to the inside of the turn as the inside leg flexes & the out side leg extends throughout the turn. You want the inside leg to have little to no weight on it so the inside hip can relax & flex towards the inside of the turn. To release the turn flex the outside leg & keep on flexing through transition bring feet togeater @ middle of transition. The quicker & more sudden the flexing of the outside leg the more dynamic the edge changes. 

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