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My carving needs help. MA please.

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 

Self diagnosis:

  • my outside hand tends to get behind.  I need to work on keeping it in front and driving it into the turn, which will drive my outside ski and cause me to 'hook up' better.  I'm focusing on this on the 3rd clip.
  • My arms/hands aren't quite as quiet as I'd like them to be.
  • probably directly related to the hands is that my body sometimes gets over counter-rotated to the outside of the turn.  I need to square my body to the skis.
  • on a few turns, I don't commit enough to the outside ski and end up A-framing a bit and loosing some grip on outside ski.  This is probably caused by too aggressive of a move of my COM towards the inside.  focusing on ILE transitions helps with this, but sometimes I'm not quick enough.
  • my body position could probably be a bit more forward/aggressive.

 

Give me your thoughts...and advice on how to fix it! 

 

Thanks!

 


Edited by majortato - 2/3/13 at 12:09am
post #2 of 20
When you "drive" your outside hand across your body at the ends of turns, you decrease your chance of moving into the new turn through tipping of your feet, so you make huge movements to swing your pelvis from side to side for edging. You are dropping your pole plant hand after the touch, so inside shoulder tends to drop back and down so you lose the strong inside half.
post #3 of 20
Thread Starter 

You're right...I am dropping my inside hand after pole touch.  Need to work on this!  =D

 

What do you mean by swinging pelvis side to side for edging?  I'm not quite understanding.

 

As for the outside hand, I'm not trying to drive my hands across the body....and in general, I don't see my hands going across the body in my video (maybe in one or two of the turns where I'm over doing it).  I know I definitely don't want to be in a position at the end of the turn where my shoulders are turned more uphill relative to direction of skis...so I need to be careful of not letting that outside hand come across the body when finishing the turn.  I was told by a better skier than me that I should work on driving the outside hand forward and into the turn.  This will square me up better with my skis and get more out of the carves.

 

So here's an example of racers driving that outside hand forward and in:

 

 

From frames 2 to 4, that looks like an incredibly strong move of the outside hand forward and in.  When I ski, I think I'm probably 2-3 frames behind with this move.

Here's another shot showing lindsey with those hands really forward and square to the skis.

 

 

 

And here's a shot of me on one of my turns:

 

In the video, I eventually get that hand forward in prep for the pole plant, but it's well after I've passed the fall line.

 

So what should I be doing with my hands during all phases of the turn?  How will this affect my body positioning?  Things I'm doing right? Things I'm doing wrong?

 

Thanks!

post #4 of 20

Yeah just work on keeping those hands forward instead of dropping and then bringing them back up and out to initiate turns.  Good skiing though.

post #5 of 20

I think you need to work on patience at the top of the turn. Look at how fast the skis start go from pointing across th hill to pointing down the hill after your edge-change. Slow down the entry and try to find that "upside-down" position.

post #6 of 20

   I notice not enough upper/lower body separation--you're making a rotary movement with your shoulders. Work on pivot slip drills to encourage more counter in your turns. Also, I think your stance is too wide...with your inside leg beneath your body-- coupled with a rotary movement--you've got too much weight on your inside ski during too much of the turn. Get em out to the side!

 

     zenny

post #7 of 20
Thread Starter 

zenny,

 

good call on the stance width...too wide for sure.  I'll have to keep that in mind.  About the counter, are you referring to counter rotating or counter angulating? 

 

It sounds like you mean counter rotate.  Which is interesting because this is actually the thing I'm trying to reduce in my skiing.  I was told I over counter rotate and my body ends up facing too far to the outside of the turn.  My outside hand will get behind because of this counter rotation, and then I require a big move to get squared at transition.  When I look at slow motion video of good skiing and pictures of WC racers, there seems to be a trend more and more for the body to be square to the direction of travel.  There's definitely still some counter rotation, but a lot less than the carving demo videos you find where the demonstrator has his body basically facing completely to the outside of the turn. 

 

There was a big long thread here about waist steering awhile ago related to the idea of driving the hips into the turn and having all elements of the body more square to direction of travel.  Here's the site that promotes it: http://www.modernskiracing.com/technique_links.php

post #8 of 20
regarding upper rotation...look at your turn completion/transition. there is a "reaching"movement made (if memory serves, im on my phone which doesnt show your vid;)) at turn completion/initiation, with your outside hand/arm/shoulder...this is indicitave of too much inside weighting. pivots would help encourage more counter/open hips at initiation...which is starting too close to the fall line in your skiing imho. its also making a "foraganal" movement (which can help with early new outside engagement above the fall line, resulting in better turn shape) into the fall line with your com difficult to perform.

zenny
post #9 of 20
Thread Starter 

The movement you're talking about is me trying to drive the outside hand forward.  I think I'm doing this wrong...or at best, a bit delayed in the turn.  I think what you're trying to say, and what I should try to achieve is more open hips at the end of the turn. But I don't want to do this at beginning of a turn.  If I imagine an extreme example of open hips at turn initiation...then my shoulders and hips are facing uphill.  I would have to rotate my body from facing downhill to facing uphill and that's not good.

 

So now the picture I have in my head is this.

 

start of turn - skis perpendicular to fall line.  Body facing down the hill towards apex.  The body is basically rotated more inward than the skis.

a little after start of turn - skis starting to point diagonally towards fall line.  Body is square to skis.  Incline to start turn. 

middle of turn - skis parallel to fall line.  Body is still fairly square to skis.  Outside hand is driving forward and into the turn.  Adding angulation at this point to level the shoulders.

end of turn - more counter rotation/open hips here.  Skis point across the hill while body still points down the hill.

 

The key here is at the end of the turn and into the "transition" the body is not square to the skis.  I'm looking at pictures and finding that having "everything squared at transition" seems to be a myth.  The "square" body should happen a little bit after transition, during the turn initiation phase...not at the transition point.  So at the start of a turn, my hips actually should face the inside of the turn, not the outside. 

 

Does that make sense?

post #10 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortato View Post

The movement you're talking about is me trying to drive the outside hand forward. Driving both hands forward through the turn is good to do, but you are crossing your body's vertical "centerline" with your outside hand during almost every turn completion. This is not being squared up (which normal and a lot of times necessary during transition), this is shoulder rotation. I think I'm doing this wrong...or at best, a bit delayed in the turn.  I think what you're trying to say, and what I should try to achieve is more open hips at the end of the turn (No...at the top of the new turn). But I don't want to do this at beginning of a turn.(Why not? Doing so prepares you-- alignment wise--for the rest of the turn. If I imagine an extreme example of open hips at turn initiation...then my shoulders and hips are facing uphill.  I would have to rotate my body from facing downhill to facing uphill and that's not good.I get ya. No...I mean "open" as in to the fall line, not uphill!! At your skiing development level, face the body more towards the fall line during turn initation. Foraganal movement with the upper body in relation to the fall line means you more or less move your body forward and diagonally--extending down the slope with your center of mass (CoM) before your skis do.  

 

So now the picture I have in my head is this. As in this is what you think you ski like now? If so then see red comments below...

 

start of turn - skis perpendicular to fall line.  Body facing down the hill towards apex. You should begin this as you change to the new outside edge while it is still technically "uphill"  The body is basically rotated more inward than the skis. Yes, you rotate inward for much too long... Instead begin to counter rotate after transition--doesn't have to be a lot on larger radius turns. New inside shoulder should begin to lead just a smidgen here...as this is the top of the turn.

a little after start of turn - skis starting to point diagonally towards fall line.  Body is square to skis. Begin to counter rotate here  Incline to start tun. Once again, make a foraganal movement.

middle of turn - skis parallel to fall line.  Body is still fairly square to skis.  Inside lead (skis, knees, hips, hands, shoulders, etc...) should now be discernable to someone viewing you  Outside hand is driving forward and into the turn. Sure...but inside leads  Adding angulation at this point to level the shoulders. Try to match your shoulders to the slope angle throughout the turn.

end of turn - more counter rotation/open hips here Squaring process should  begin a little prior to transition, dont "hang on" to the old turn.  Skis point across the hill while body still points down the hill. Begin squaring.

 

The key here is at the end of the turn and into the "transition" the body is not square to the skis. Yes, you're too rotary here  I'm looking at pictures and finding that having "everything squared at transition" seems to be a myth.  The "square" body should happen a little bit after transition, during the turn initiation phase...not at the transition point.  So at the start of a turn, my hips actually should face the inside of the turn, not the outside. Not necessarily...I wouldn't try emulating world cuppers just yet. Though squaring begins and can continue throughout transition...depends on turn radius/type of turn you are making (cross over, under, a mix of both perhaps??)

 

Does that make sense?

   If you look at that pic of Lindsey, and that Montage of Herman you posted, you'll notice the inside arm(s) are leading.....


Edited by zentune - 2/4/13 at 1:22pm
post #11 of 20

I'm not going to comment on the specifics, but one thing that jumps out at me is perhaps the 'mental' game in your skiing, major. It 'feels' like you're wired tight and in a hurry to effect effort to your skis/skiing. I'd be interesting to see you skiing thinking of being a bit more patient, lazy, and looking for a continuous 'flow'.

 

Here's a link to L.V. free skiing GS turns:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br3NtWBFgcI

 

It just looks 'fluid' and solid... like there's nothing happening here that's working beyond the forces of gravity. No herky, no jerky. Less of a 'stance' or 'position', and more of a dance. Look at that long outside leg and short inside leg... pretty beautiful skiing I'd say. Be patient and let gravity lead you.

post #12 of 20

      I like what markojp said regarding "slowing things down". It may be beneficial to work on these movements on a lower angle slope as well! Also, is there an instructor or coach working with you?

 

    I should also amend my description of "foraganal", or "downsloping" as I like to think of it...It is a movement a t the top of the turn wherein the body moves "forward", or ahead of the skis--in relation to the fall line. Also, there is a diagonal component as well...the body does NOT, for instance, move directly down the fall line, but rather in a more or less 45* (diagonal) angle between the perpendicular intersection of the direction of travel of the skis and the fall line. In effect "splitting the difference" down the slope---while the skis remain "above".

 

      zenny

post #13 of 20
Thread Starter 

"but you are crossing your body's vertical "centerline" with your outside hand during almost every turn completion. "

 

I'm not seeing this.  Are you sure it's not camera angle?  There is a move at the end of the turn where I'm bringing that outside hand up and forward.  It looks like it's coming across, but if you watch carefully, my skis/body is also turning and aiming in that direction.  Relative to my body, my hands aren't crossing the center line of my body.  I think in most cases, it's still outside of my body.

 

When I said "this is what I picture in my head", I was talking about what I should be doing..not what I am actually doing.  I think there are some semantics differences in our terminology, but your last post helped clear some stuff up.  For the most part, I think we're talking about the same thing and I have a good idea of what I need to aim for.  Thanks!

 

markojp,

thanks for sharing that video...it represents some really beautiful skiing.  You're right, when I ski, I'm trying too hard.  I like to ski hard, aggressive, fast, etc. and always focused on where all my body parts are.  I'm going to try some mindless free, flowy/dancy skiing next time I'm out. 

post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortato View Post

 

markojp,

thanks for sharing that video...it represents some really beautiful skiing.  You're right, when I ski, I'm trying too hard.  I like to ski hard, aggressive, fast, etc. and always focused on where all my body parts are.  I'm going to try some mindless free, flowy/dancy skiing next time I'm out. 

 

 

But make no mistake, Lindsey isn't on autopilot. There's thousands and thousands of hours of 'thinking' that preceeded those turns, and I'm sure plenty during.

post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

 

 

But make no mistake, Lindsey isn't on autopilot. There's thousands and thousands of hours of 'thinking' that preceeded those turns, and I'm sure plenty during.

   No question!!!!!!!

 

   zenny

post #16 of 20

   Freeze frame at 37 seconds...that's too much across (and from a diff. camera angle, too much across the center line), as opposed to simply forward. You can see too much weight on the inside ski in this frame as well--the two are related and I see this tendency often in your vid.. Such movement patterns can delay initiation.  The idea is to start the skis carving at the top of the turn, not at or near the fall line. Don't get me wrong, you're skiing well, but you wanted advice, and this is one of the things holding you back imo....

 

    zenny


Edited by zentune - 2/4/13 at 4:02pm
post #17 of 20
Quiet your hands: keep them in front of you, chest level, drag your poles in this position and do not let them hands out of sight at all. After 5 runs or more, add a pole touch from the wrist only, keep your hands in the same place. The pole drag is your friend, watch more WC.

Stance is too wide - it is an issue especially in the transition. Bring your skis closer in transition and only separate them as you build more angles.

You are not over- countering. You are rotating with the skis a bit too much, it seems to me.

You hop into the next turn pretty much, slow down the transition and have more patience - give the skis time to hook-up.

Pretty much i guess repeating what you already got above...
post #18 of 20
Thread Starter 

Thanks for all the advice.  I've definitely got some stuff to think about and work on next time I'm out.  Hopefully get a chance to get some more video as well.  

post #19 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortato View Post

Thanks for all the advice.  I've definitely got some stuff to think about and work on next time I'm out.  Hopefully get a chance to get some more video as well.  

   Great!! Look forward to seeing it...try and get some one on one time with a high level instructor to view as well...

 

    zenny

post #20 of 20
Thread Starter 

Reporting back...no video yet, been doing night skiing.  However, I'm feeling a lot better in my turns.  I'm initiating my turns with my body facing more down and forward.  Being more patient at the top of the turn (still need to continue working on this as sometimes I catch myself rushing it....main thing is trusting those skis).  The outside arm is now more naturally driving through the turn rather than a forced action.  My upper body and arms feel a lot more quiet and I'm focused on keeping them forward.

 

Overall, feels much better and I got a much better mental picture of what I need to do through a turn.  The proof is in the pudding as I'm about 5% faster now in the race course compared to earlier this season.  Just a little more and I'll be hanging with the fastest in our beer league...I think my skiing level is close...just need better race tactics and more aggressive through the gates.

 

Thanks for the help...hopefully will get a chance for more video this year to tackle the next big thing!

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