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SUGGESTIONS for tall, lanky psia l2

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 

  Hey guys! I'm looking for help in regards to a friend of mine who wants to both go for his psia level 3 and  improve his carving skills. Unfortunately, I do not have video at this time..though I could get some if needed. I've never worked with a skier this tall and relatively slender before (6'5", 220lbs.,--usually, I'm working with master's racers, juniors, instructors, of, shall we say, a more "normal" size). He was a bumper back in the day ('80's) in Tahoe with Cordeau and those guys, but then injured his knee and quit skiing for quite some time...

 

  Fast forward a number of years. He now finds himself on shaped skis (sl's, carving all mountain) and instructing at a small mountain.

 

  He skis with an abstem, a-frame (tall!), and breaks at the waist a fair amount. He also skis with a lot of tip lead when working on countering...not sure if this is an illusion because of his size??--but I cant help but wonder if we should have him try to be more square to the skis and use a wider stance (he skis fairly narrow) We've been doing drills all season such as; pivot slips/side slips, wide tracking at slow speeds, javelins, etc..These have helped quite a bit, but I was wondering if anyone here has any specific exercises for such a tall guy (advanced skier to be surewink.gif)  I cant help but feel his anatomy is a major factor (relatively slim hipped as well)

 

   P.s. His boots have been fitted by Don Walde, who has done work for some US team members, BTW...

 

     Thanks

 

    zenny


Edited by zentune - 1/28/13 at 7:06pm
post #2 of 21
Abstem and a-framing.... Any drill you know to open the hips including early and exaggerated counter. Height of skier doesn't matter. For a moment, think of it this way; the arm across the body and resulting body rotation are not the cause, but a symptom of the pelvis closing as the new outside knee is rolled in to get the ski on edge. This is a classic movement pattern from old school skiing. It's also likely to involve a good deal of exaggerated or extra curricular movement in the sagital plane as well.

Javelins... Do 'tip on top of tip' javelin turns, not ski across ski.

Reverse garlands... Think of it as a diagonal pivot slip movement... Start a straight run diagonal to the fall line. Pivot with the ski tips down the fall line while the upper body faces the direction of travel. This will set up early edge engagement with early counter. In a nutshell, think of it as a 'proto stivot' move.

After this, white pass turns with extension of the new ski 'out' emphasizing counter once again.

smile.gif

(This is all assuming basic alignment issues have been addressed by not only the fitter, but by a qualified on snow observer who knows your buddy's skiing well.)
Edited by markojp - 1/28/13 at 8:03pm
post #3 of 21

video?

post #4 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

video?

I'll get some...don't have any now. My thinking is thus: I'm 5'7.170. Solid build as I have been a manual laborer and have worked out/been active all my life. My coaches always told me I was TOO square to my skis, and that I needed to increase tip lead, among other things...it took some work. My friend Is the opposite body type--Tall and lanky...so would the opposite advice work (as in, square up?) 

 

  zenny


Edited by zentune - 1/28/13 at 8:23pm
post #5 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Abstem and a-framing.... Any drill you know to open the hips including early and exaggerated counter. Height of skier doesn't matter. For a moment, think of it this way; the arm across the body and resulting body rotation are not the cause, but a symptom of the pelvis closing as the new outside knee is rolled in to get the ski on edge. This is a classic movement pattern from old school skiing. It's also likely to involve a good deal of exaggerated or extra curricular movement in the sagital plane as well.

Javelins... Do 'tip on top of tip' javelin turns, not ski across ski.

Reverse garlands... Think of it as a diagonal pivot slip movement... Start a straight run diagonal to the fall line. Pivot with the ski tips down the fall line while the upper body faces the direction of travel. This will set up early edge engagement with early counter. In a nutshell, think of it as a 'proto stivot' move.

After this, white pass turns with extension of the new ski 'out' emphasizing counter once again.

smile.gif

   Thanks Markojp...I like the reverse garlands as well as the javelins "tip on top of tip"...we'll give these a tryicon14.gif

 

 

   zenny

post #6 of 21
Thread Starter 

    I should add that our new friend is under the tutelage of my old coach who has 35 yrs. of instructing under his belt...I'm assisting mostly by being a "demo" skier. Asking for input is something I wanted to do on my own...

 

     zenny


Edited by zentune - 1/29/13 at 5:46am
post #7 of 21

Hard to say much w/o video but something does not make sense...

 

Level III apsirations and working on carving?  Am I reading this wrong?

 

I only have my PSIA level 1 (USSA 100).  I would like to get my level II, but PSIA is sure making it a PITA in terms of time $$ clinics and the endless slow crappy boring pivot slip Sh!T you mentioned above. ;)

 

I have good luck with the following training racers and addressing the issues you mention.  Frankly, the lankier the better as they seem to be able to get better U/L body separation than the stocky kids.

 

1.  Have your guy stand in a doorway in front of a mirror.  Brace foot against the door frame and hang on with one or both hands.  Have him try to touch the other side of the frame with his hip.  This is a good drill on a squat rack or Smith machine at the gym as well.  Get your body in the "correct" long leg / short leg position with lots of counter.  Make it look "perfect."  The mirror is key.  The SHORT leg is harder for grown-ups to get the "feel" for.  Gotta BEND that knee.  You are doing it "right" when you occasionally "knee" yourself in the stomach.  Only really works on a decent pitch. 

 

2.  OPEN the stance.  LEAD with the INSIDE/UPHILL KNEE.  Let the UPHILL knee point into the turn.  OPEN OPEN OPEN the stance.

post #8 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pat View Post

Hard to say much w/o video but something does not make sense...

 

Level III apsirations and working on carving?  Am I reading this wrong?

 

I only have my PSIA level 1 (USSA 100).  I would like to get my level II, but PSIA is sure making it a PITA in terms of time $$ clinics and the endless slow crappy boring pivot slip Sh!T you mentioned above. ;)

 

I have good luck with the following training racers and addressing the issues you mention.  Frankly, the lankier the better as they seem to be able to get better U/L body separation than the stocky kids.

 

1.  Have your guy stand in a doorway in front of a mirror.  Brace foot against the door frame and hang on with one or both hands.  Have him try to touch the other side of the frame with his hip.  This is a good drill on a squat rack or Smith machine at the gym as well.  Get your body in the "correct" long leg / short leg position with lots of counter.  Make it look "perfect."  The mirror is key.  The SHORT leg is harder for grown-ups to get the "feel" for.  Gotta BEND that knee.  You are doing it "right" when you occasionally "knee" yourself in the stomach.  Only really works on a decent pitch. 

 

2.  OPEN the stance.  LEAD with the INSIDE/UPHILL KNEE.  Let the UPHILL knee point into the turn.  OPEN OPEN OPEN the stance.

  Thanks Pat...by carving i mean he wants to carve more like us racer dorks  rolleyes.gif and improve/update his overall skills...he has a decent carve already, it's just not very dynamic and is hampered in part by the issues outlined above.

 

  Open the stance is what we've been trying, tho I know of course these things take much repetition. To my eye, he's skiing with a lot of tip lead--too much. Also the waist breaking is hampering his ability to angulate effectively with his hips...

  

   I've noticed other tall lanksters with these same issues and thought perhaps someone here has had experience with such--Also, as I said above, he's an older era skier/bumper(80's)

 

      Thanks again

 zenny

post #9 of 21

How would a wider stance give less A-frame?

post #10 of 21
Thread Starter 
thanks for replying Jamt! the wider stance was to help prevent him from moving his old outside in, close to his new outside during transition...hes not doing this with a step. he leaves old outside on the snow as he brings it in. we wanted to emphasize more of a constant width stance.

zenny
post #11 of 21

I'm a tall (6') skier who's been fighting a narrow stance since learning to ski. It's been especially painful on every instructor course, and I'm now trying to get rid of it for the third time to pass my level 3 CSIA. I feel for him! I hated a wide stance because it made me feel like a triangle, with a wide base of support, and with a center of mass floating over the middle of the base of support. To make a wide stance work, skiers really need to flex through their inside half, roll the inside ski on its edge, and angulate to get that center of mass over the outside ski. Much easier to cheat in a narrow stance--but a wide stance is key to getting dynamic parallel turns with strong edge performance, loading, and deflection of mass down the hill. 

 

Where are his arms: are the elbows closed in tightly at the chest, or is he extending his arms and elbows forward and driving down to maintain balance? Keep elbows forward from the ribcage, extended outward, with hands extended further apart. 

 

Is he flexing through his joints, or standing tall/upright? It's much harder to get higher angles when standing like a pedestrian. Try doing runs in a "spike tunnel": spikes above his head, so no extending upward. Lateral extension is good. Try having him hold his poles below the grips, then pole plant as normal.

 

Does he have independent leg steering? (It's a requirement for an effective wide stance, and it sounds like he doesn't have any ILS, given that he pulls his leg in through transitions.) He may need to work on scribing turns with both feet, rather than just letting the inside ski come along for a ride. 

 

From a "cowboy stance", get him initiating turns starting by tipping his inside ankle. Make a conscious effort to get (and stay) bow-legged. Take the terrain down a notch. Do some rollerblade turns on the greens. Try bringing the inside knee-to-chest to get him thinking about creating some space between the skis.

 

He'll probably need some long-term work to fix this deeply ingrained habit. It's taken me six years so far. And his skiing may appear to get worse before it gets better as he adapts to changes. 


Edited by Metaphor_ - 1/30/13 at 12:27am
post #12 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

 a wide stance is key to getting dynamic parallel turns with strong edge performance, loading, and deflection of mass down the hill. 

 

 

Really? Wide stances may be useful as a drill, but to get really high performance you need a functional stance, not wide, not glued feet. If you are tall and slim, don't fight what is natural.

Would Byggmark pass CSIA?

post #13 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Really? Wide stances may be useful as a drill, but to get really high performance you need a functional stance, not wide, not glued feet. If you are tall and slim, don't fight what is natural.

Would Byggmark pass CSIA?

   Jens is 5'11", 180 lbs., not quite to tall lanky categorywink.gif Byggmarks stance here is more like the one I prefer to use. My friend is more like (size wise, anyway) Aksel who I think is 6'4", 215lbs...seems like Svindal often employs a wider stance to help keep his much larger (and further to the inside) CoM in balancesmile.gif Not trying to say my friend is going to ski like Svindal some day, but....Thoughts, Jamt?

 

 

 

   Metaphor...thanks for the reply. He does not employ ILS effectivley, which I think is one of his main hang-ups, but we're working on it--he HAS improved quite a lot actually since November. For instance, elbows used to be held close to the body, arms now wider, elbows in front. As far as uprightness, he tends to ski with a concave, or "hollow", back.

 

   I'm trying to see if there's anything I can take to the mountain (drills), that we haven't tried which could be helpful. So far, I like Markojp's reverse garlands--think we'll definitely give those a go.  Of course, I know video would be helpful...

     

      zenny

post #14 of 21

Functional means wider in speed events, and that is what I usually associate Svindal with. I don't think he is particularly wide in SL. Wider than a smaller person though. I cannot think of any tall and lanky persons in the WC. If you are as tall as Svindal but with a thinner frame the same stance width will look wide I suppose.

Without video I would guess that drills that emphasize the inside foot would be useful.

post #15 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

I'm a tall (6') skier who's been fighting a narrow stance since learning to ski. It's been especially painful on every instructor course, and I'm now trying to get rid of it for the third time to pass my level 3 CSIA. I feel for him! I hated a wide stance because it made me feel like a triangle, with a wide base of support, and with a center of mass floating over the middle of the base of support. To make a wide stance work, skiers really need to flex through their inside half, roll the inside ski on its edge, and angulate to get that center of mass over the outside ski. Much easier to cheat in a narrow stance--but a wide stance is key to getting dynamic parallel turns with strong edge performance, loading, and deflection of mass down the hill. 

 

Where are his arms: are the elbows closed in tightly at the chest, or is he extending his arms and elbows forward and driving down to maintain balance? Keep elbows forward from the ribcage, extended outward, with hands extended further apart. 

 

Is he flexing through his joints, or standing tall/upright? It's much harder to get higher angles when standing like a pedestrian. Try doing runs in a "spike tunnel": spikes above his head, so no extending upward. Lateral extension is good. Try having him hold his poles below the grips, then pole plant as normal.

 

Does he have independent leg steering? (It's a requirement for an effective wide stance, and it sounds like he doesn't have any ILS, given that he pulls his leg in through transitions.) He may need to work on scribing turns with both feet, rather than just letting the inside ski come along for a ride.

 

From a "cowboy stance", get him initiating turns starting by tipping his inside ankle. Make a conscious effort to get (and stay) bow-legged. Take the terrain down a notch. Do some rollerblade turns on the greens. Try bringing the inside knee-to-chest to get him thinking about creating some space between the skis.

 

He'll probably need some long-term work to fix this deeply ingrained habit. It's taken me six years so far. And his skiing may appear to get worse before it gets better as he adapts to changes. 

 

Metaphor, you have pinpointed a major issue that plagues people working towards the PSIA Level II cert.  I just took the skiing test, and saw the closing inside ski with banking happen with two people in my group.  Focusing on that inside ski, tipping that ankle inside the boot, staying bowlegged with that knee, feeling and maintaining a constant stance width, and feeling the inside ski's tip lead the turn as it scribes an arc above the fall line is something that takes time to ingrain.  Also necessary is leading with the inside hip and angulating over the outside ski, something some bodies just don't want to do either.  When the power of the inside ski (and the whole inside half of the body) becomes obvious, the discomfort with the wider stance dissolves.  

post #16 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Really? Wide stances may be useful as a drill, but to get really high performance you need a functional stance, not wide, not glued feet. If you are tall and slim, don't fight what is natural.

Would Byggmark pass CSIA?

 

I'm guessing he'd pass the dynamic parallel portions. There's a good 18" between those skis. Think if you rolled those skis flat--he'd be standing at hip width. 

 

You could argue it's possible to get good edge angles with a narrow width stance as our alternative teaching system friends do, but most people who ski in a narrow stance get stuck with no vertical separation between their skis in the apex of the turn, which physically blocks the skis from tipping higher on edge (these kinds of people have shaved off most of plastic on the insides of their boots). I've discussed with good CSIA examiners that a wide stance makes skiers feel like a triangle/dumptruck because I used to experience the "skiing in a triangle" sensation (and still feel that way on wider stance short radius turns). This sensation is accurate if your CoM is centered over the BoS. But if you roll that inside ski high on edge and add some good angulation, you're suddenly centered over the outside ski instead, like Byggmark. 

 

You're also right that wide isn't the right word for a versatile stance width--functional is. But for the guy in question, functional for him will feel quite wide. And for skiers working on advanced parallel, they'll find more success at the wider end of their stance range (unless they're really good at sucking the inside knee into the armpit).  

post #17 of 21

Metaphor, its not about the distance between the skis, it is about the distance between the legs. Jens outside knee touches the inside boot, pretty much as narrow as he can get.

 

If you are centered over the outside ski, why would you need the inside ski further to the inside? Anatomically most people have a harder time tipping the inside if they are too wide, not to mention that you will get more tip lead causing immediate back seat problems when you loose grip on the outside.

post #18 of 21

There's a good 18" between those skis. Think if you rolled those skis flat--he'd be standing at hip width. 

 

most people who ski in a narrow stance get stuck with no vertical separation between their skis in the apex of the turn, which physically blocks the skis from tipping higher on edge (these kinds of people have shaved off most of plastic on the insides of their boots). I've discussed with good CSIA examiners that a wide stance makes skiers feel like a triangle/dumptruck because I used to experience the "skiing in a triangle" sensation (and still feel that way on wider stance short radius turns). This sensation is accurate if your CoM is centered over the BoS. But if you roll that inside ski high on edge and add some good angulation, you're suddenly centered over the outside ski instead, like Byggmark. 

post #19 of 21

Level 4 CSIA teaching this one

 

http://youtu.be/HksUKdwdT4Y

 

Watch the video.  Stance is dynamic. 

 

I think sometimes once an idea is pushed everyone must follow one pattern. For tests follow the pattern, for life be dynamic you'll come out ahead.

post #20 of 21

Metaphor, I think maybe the difference between our views is partly semantic. I don't claim that narrow stances are good, I was talking about functional stances. In my view a wide stance is wider than functional and a narrow stance is narrower than functional. Hip width stance of Byggmark above is functional, not wide, not narrow. But it is more towards the narrow end of the spectrum because his legs are almost coming together. He could be narrower but then he would start risking boot out and shaving plastic. Then it would be too narrow.

post #21 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by pat View Post

 

I only have my PSIA level 1 (USSA 100).  I would like to get my level II, but PSIA is sure making it a PITA in terms of time $$ clinics and the endless slow crappy boring pivot slip Sh!T you mentioned above. ;)

 

If you don't master the skills that a good pivot slip builds you will never pass a L3. Your path to LII would be well served to keep practicing those pivot slips.. If there is ONE drill that will make you a much better skier it is the pivot slip.

 

Done properly, It teaches fine control of edges, good controlled rotary skills, upper and lower body separation, pole touch timing, proper extension to release edges, proper timing of fore-aft movement, and fine fore-aft balance. If done in worse then ideal conditions it also teaches you to read and anticipate strange snow conditions.

 

Master the skills, not just learn a pivot slip and your skiing will improve in all areas.

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