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Movement Analysis please.....

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 

OK, I suck... I know,,,,  now that that's out of the way.....  what do you see, and what would you do with me ?  (please, nothing too weird :)

 

background.... aiming towards L3 ski exam in PSIA-W.....  input to date has been :

- more progressive edging - better turn shape

- more flex/extend in bumps - rounder turn shape, less pivot/slip

- also modified boots (added booster straps to allow more progressive (softer) boot flex....

 

Have at it !!! (& Thx !!!)

 

 

 

post #2 of 17

"White Pass' turns are in your training future to sort out your turn shape and  to put your 'check and bounce' at completion (so what is 'completion' anyway? With CoM flowing down the hill, what's initiation and what's completion becomes nearly indiscernable) to bed for good... the proof is in the transition pudding...  Time to get cooking! :)

 

Start at :55 secs:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9l7f-_a8Bw

 

I'm sure there are better examples,(I'd like to see less inclination and a bit more counter) but it's a start.


Edited by markojp - 1/28/13 at 3:55pm
post #3 of 17

Well, for starters, in the first clip I think you are a bit on your heels and displacing the tails of the skis more than I'd like to see. I'd start to fix that by working on some retraction turns. Low during the transition and the reach for the outside. Looks pretty consistent across the other clips too actually.

post #4 of 17

I see a hard edge set at the end of each turn.  This hard set causes your entire upper body to whiplash forward at the end of each turn, disturbing your balance and making it hard to do the right thing the next turn.  You really want to work on getting early pressure in the first half of the turn.  Especially the skip tips, which doesn't look to be pressured.  

 

You seem to be in a hurry to get the skis across the fall line in every turn.  Be patient...let the turn happen.  This will smooth out your turn shape.  If you're looking to control speed, do it at the top half of turn, not bottom half where you're fighting against gravity as well.  Work on slower bigger carved turns on mellow terrain to get better at more rounded turn shape and earlier edge pressure.  Carving properly also will make you more patient with your turns so you're not always looking to throw the skis sideways into the next turn.  Slowly work towards lower radius turns.

 

For the moguls, your body is very static.  There is little to no absorption.  let your joints flex and keep your upper body from bopping up and down when going over the bumps.  Very obvious at 2:11 where you hit the bump and because of lack of absorption, your entire body got tossed forward.  You managed to recover and stay in control, but best not to let this happen in the first place.  Again, the hard edge sets at the end of the turns are hurting you in the bumps because they're whipping your body forward.

 

I see a big up move in your transitions.  To get your skis to cross under your body, you're having your entire body move up and out of the way because you aren't flexing any joints (ankles/knees/hips).  This causes very static turns.  Do a search for 'virtual bump' where your transition should feel like you're absorbing a bump.  The upper body does not move up away from the snow during the transition.  The more stable and smooth your upper body is when skiing, the better you will be able to anticipate momentum and control your turns/legs/skis.

post #5 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

(so what is 'completion' anyway? With CoM flowing down the hill, what's initiation and what's completion becomes nearly indiscernable)

 

 

 

 

You mean "finish-iation".....   ;)   

 

Thanks for the input.... one of the trainers I ski with has me doing white passes all the time, but never said why.... perhaps it's not as much as an "obsession" for him as I've suspected  :)

post #6 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

Well, for starters, in the first clip I think you are a bit on your heels and displacing the tails of the skis more than I'd like to see. I'd start to fix that by working on some retraction turns. Low during the transition and the reach for the outside. Looks pretty consistent across the other clips too actually.

Thanks !!!

post #7 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortato View Post

I see a hard edge set at the end of each turn.  This hard set causes your entire upper body to whiplash forward at the end of each turn, disturbing your balance and making it hard to do the right thing the next turn.  You really want to work on getting early pressure in the first half of the turn.  Especially the skip tips, which doesn't look to be pressured.  

 

You seem to be in a hurry to get the skis across the fall line in every turn.  Be patient...let the turn happen.  This will smooth out your turn shape.  If you're looking to control speed, do it at the top half of turn, not bottom half where you're fighting against gravity as well.  Work on slower bigger carved turns on mellow terrain to get better at more rounded turn shape and earlier edge pressure.  Carving properly also will make you more patient with your turns so you're not always looking to throw the skis sideways into the next turn.  Slowly work towards lower radius turns.

 

For the moguls, your body is very static.  There is little to no absorption.  let your joints flex and keep your upper body from bopping up and down when going over the bumps.  Very obvious at 2:11 where you hit the bump and because of lack of absorption, your entire body got tossed forward.  You managed to recover and stay in control, but best not to let this happen in the first place.  Again, the hard edge sets at the end of the turns are hurting you in the bumps because they're whipping your body forward.

 

I see a big up move in your transitions.  To get your skis to cross under your body, you're having your entire body move up and out of the way because you aren't flexing any joints (ankles/knees/hips).  This causes very static turns.  Do a search for 'virtual bump' where your transition should feel like you're absorbing a bump.  The upper body does not move up away from the snow during the transition.  The more stable and smooth your upper body is when skiing, the better you will be able to anticipate momentum and control your turns/legs/skis.

Great input that is greatly appreciated !!!! Thanks

post #8 of 17
White Pass and patience turns would help you both in involving both skis throughout the turn and in reducing your need to make those checks that Epic described.

You need to soften your pole touches some and stop dropping the hands. Your right hand pole touch does not match your left one except when you're making the hard edge check.
post #9 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouD-Reno View Post

 

You mean "finish-iation".....   ;)   

 

Thanks for the input.... one of the trainers I ski with has me doing white passes all the time, but never said why.... perhaps it's not as much as an "obsession" for him as I've suspected  :)

 

 

It really is about extending the turn on your old 'outside' ski even as it becomes your 'inside ski' in the transition as your CoM passes over your foot. Done correctly, it should feel 'slithery' smooth.

post #10 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

White Pass and patience turns would help you both in involving both skis throughout the turn and in reducing your need to make those checks that Epic described.

You need to soften your pole touches some and stop dropping the hands. Your right hand pole touch does not match your left one except when you're making the hard edge check.

Thanks Kneale.... I didn't realize I was dropping my hands (!!!).....  

 

Regarding involving both skis... are you seeing too much (or not enough) on the outside (new outside) ski ???

post #11 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

 

 

It really is about extending the turn on your old 'outside' ski even as it becomes your 'inside ski' in the transition as your CoM passes over your foot. Done correctly, it should feel 'slithery' smooth.

Great stuff, but now I need more help.... I get input regarding getting to the new outside ski earlier.... allowing more "progressiveness", etc.,    do you thing I'm just overdoing this or am I missing something ???  

 

Thanks again... 

post #12 of 17
I think the progressiveness you're advised to use is in stretching the transition to the new outside ski farther into the turn. You want to pass through a point of equal weighting of the skis rather than jumping off the old outside one and onto the new outside one. Kind of a less traumatic White Pass approach.

A neat little exercise for hands is to lay a spare ski pole across your wrists and make pole touches.
post #13 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

I think the progressiveness you're advised to use is in stretching the transition to the new outside ski farther into the turn. You want to pass through a point of equal weighting of the skis rather than jumping off the old outside one and onto the new outside one. Kind of a less traumatic White Pass approach.

A neat little exercise for hands is to lay a spare ski pole across your wrists and make pole touches.

 

Thanks, this helps my understanding.... (& I'll be doing the pole exercise in the morning... :)

post #14 of 17

description

 

initiation phase:

 

rotary -  as the edges are being changed and flat you aggressively pivot the skis towards the fall line. The pivot point is much forward of your boot. The steering should be happening after the edge change if it should happen at all. Well at least while it can and IMO every single turn in this video can be edge to edge. So [edge change(guiding)edge change] instead of [edge(guiding) change]. The steering motion is coming from the femur joint in this phase as well as all phases this is a good start. the turn can be possible more shaped but I am not there so I do not know. 

 

Edging -   the skis are pivoted and then the edge change finally occurs, this make it impossible to get on high edge early in the turn or for much shaping to occur. You also on late you edge most on the bottom of the turn, which again makes it hard to be on high edge angle early in the turn. again TIP then Steer not TSteerIP. the edge angle here are being created by femur rotation, which is good.

 

Pressure Control/balance -  your move laterally into the turn following your large edge set upon finishing with large edge set at the bottom of the turn. The large extention move that accompanied the move to get of your edges at finish again make its nearly impossible to shape the top part of the turn, The ski are too light to be shaping at all, and you balance is mostly on your inside skis. This is why I think white pass turns should be the last things you should be doing. You pole usage is much to inside here and causing you to move laterally instead of forward. In the bumps your pole usage is again lateral and your to early. You balance seems to to be slight to aft here leading to the forward pivot of the ski. Your shin and back angle look matching here but I think your knees are overly flex. 

 

shaping phase

 

rotary -  as you come into the fall line the skis continued to be rotating from the tips instead of the from center. This is leading to again very little shaping being done at this stage of the turn. As the heels are pushed out trying to find something to grip. Aft balance here is leading to some hip twisting, with some steering motion coming from the upper body.

 

Edging - the skis are continued to be pushed as they still have not found anything to grip. The edge angle could be much higher here if the edge angles were lower though the finishing phase. You lefts turn on the groomers are significantly less heel pushy than any of your turns on off piste/bumps. You start to use some hip angles here instead of just upper leg angle to create your edge angles.

 

Pressure Control/ balance - your are just starting to find your outside ski here but its happening too late in the turn. there are instances though where your lateral movement takes you totally off your outside ski even though this phase. as your COM is finding your BOS(base of support) your balance is now getting to far forward which is helping to facilitating your heel pushing. You are starting to down weight here in order to catch yourself for the up coming edge set. Your inside half falls behind here as you pivot and tip you hips. 

 

finish phase

 

rotary - you have forward pivot point yourself to an edge! Good news this is closest you get to turning your ski from the center. You have also lost most of your counter that you started to lose during the shaping phase. 

 

edging - your found them! there they are. This is the edge angle we should have found in the shaping phase. The late edge set builds a ton of pressure and makes it very hard to start your next turn strong. You hip has dipped very far into the turn at the point causing you chuck them laterally into the next turn. 

 

Pressure Control/balance - you have found your outside ski! Again it happened to late though. Your what appears to be centered on your skis although your balance is starting to move aft at the very end of the finishing and its to far inside at this point in the turn. This is almost foot squirt but not quite...  You also have lost most of your counter/angulation and IMO in short turns more is better. I like very square to fall line in all phases of the turn for short turns.

 

stay turned for the what I think should happen.... in prescription. 

 

 

Quote:
Moderator's Note: Josh asked that this be included in the discussion.  Since it is excellent material that may help the O.P. far be it from us to moderate or remove it.  We still hope to include Josh in the conversation sometime soon in the future.
Cirquerider
post #15 of 17

look this is not bad skiing, buts it not great either, I do not think its L3 standard but I am not an examiner so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

 

you need to fix the forward pivot point, and you need to fix how your COM is moving down the hill.

 

both of which IMO actually feed of each other, you probably we can not fix one with out fixing the other.

 

For the forward pivot point(lack of upper and lower body seperation). there are tons of ways to try to fix its.

 

boot drills

pivot slips 

standing taller on your skis while doing both of the above

 

if you can pivot slip you have it, take some video and show us some pivot slips my guess is they give you fits....

 

another self assessment drill that is grea for getting the pivot point right are Rocky Mountain's backside pivot slips.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gN_eHf-SXFA

 

you simply can not do these with a forward pivot point, so I again I think they will give you trouble at first till you figure out how to turn from the center of your ski.

 

 

 

for the COM/pressure control/balance problem I will whole heartly disagree with white pass turns because your balance is already on your inside skis early in the turn exactly where it shouldnt be and a white pass turn will only make that worse.  You need to find your outside ski and you need to find it earlier than your finding it right now. Up and overs are great for this, skating down the hill is great as well skate to shape. One footed skiing is great for this as well, but not as specific as Up and overs/reverse a pass turns. 

post #16 of 17

Lou,

 

I like the simultaneous edge change and corresponding edge angle throughout most turns, the steady rhythm, that the legs are turned underneath the body at the end of the turns. You have excellent edging and rotary control skills.

 

A few big things jump out of this clip: the vertical pop of the upper body, the lack of edge engagement above the fall line, pivoting of the feet to create edge angles, and inconsistent angulation. Review the visual cues. MA yourself versus the visual cues. In every skill category there is opportunity for improvement.

 

Your boots scare me. In both side shots we can see your butt behind your heels and your knees behind your toes when your skis are flat. In both of these shots I'd prefer to see your toes, knees and nose in vertical alignment. You may be able to make this change with your boots as is. You may need fore/aft adjustment. A wise man once told me to expose my belly button to the wind.

 

My program for you would start with medium radius turns, finishing turns with a steer into counter, then initiating the new turn with a flex of the new inside leg. Drills I would use include a wedge christy picture frame drill (focus on steer into counter and release the new inside ski), leapers (focusing on turn finish), carved traverses (to replace the edge set), linked carved traverses (to introduce edge engagement above the fall line) and cowboy turns (to focus on moving the core into the new turn earlier and tipping the boots for turn initiation). White Pass turns will do wonders for you when you are ready. White Pass turns are great at telling you when you don't own the movements. They are not so great at teaching you new movements.

 

I agree that the progressiveness comments are pointing out a lack of edge engagement above the fall line. This is one hallmark of the difference between level 2 and level 3. Another marker for level 3 skiing is more "zing"/"excitement". This created by getting more bending of the ski. There are many possible routes to get from here to there. Choosing a path won't be easy. Your commitment to the L3 process is a great start. Good luck!

post #17 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

Lou,

 

I like the simultaneous edge change and corresponding edge angle throughout most turns, the steady rhythm, that the legs are turned underneath the body at the end of the turns. You have excellent edging and rotary control skills.

 

A few big things jump out of this clip: the vertical pop of the upper body, the lack of edge engagement above the fall line, pivoting of the feet to create edge angles, and inconsistent angulation. Review the visual cues. MA yourself versus the visual cues. In every skill category there is opportunity for improvement.

 

Your boots scare me. In both side shots we can see your butt behind your heels and your knees behind your toes when your skis are flat. In both of these shots I'd prefer to see your toes, knees and nose in vertical alignment. You may be able to make this change with your boots as is. You may need fore/aft adjustment. A wise man once told me to expose my belly button to the wind.

 

My program for you would start with medium radius turns, finishing turns with a steer into counter, then initiating the new turn with a flex of the new inside leg. Drills I would use include a wedge christy picture frame drill (focus on steer into counter and release the new inside ski), leapers (focusing on turn finish), carved traverses (to replace the edge set), linked carved traverses (to introduce edge engagement above the fall line) and cowboy turns (to focus on moving the core into the new turn earlier and tipping the boots for turn initiation). White Pass turns will do wonders for you when you are ready. White Pass turns are great at telling you when you don't own the movements. They are not so great at teaching you new movements.

 

I agree that the progressiveness comments are pointing out a lack of edge engagement above the fall line. This is one hallmark of the difference between level 2 and level 3. Another marker for level 3 skiing is more "zing"/"excitement". This created by getting more bending of the ski. There are many possible routes to get from here to there. Choosing a path won't be easy. Your commitment to the L3 process is a great start. Good luck!

 

Thanks !!!   I have dealt with the boots....  I was having a real hard time flexing them.... swapped in booster straps and eased up on the top buckle which has helped enormously....  been working in the input I've been getting into my movement patterns.... I get 2-3 hours of training 3-4 days  a week so (hopefully) improvements are coming.... this video is a couple of weeks old and alot of changes have already taken place.... I'm going to try to get some fresh footage posted for follow-up....  In addition to improving my skiing, all the input I'm getting is great for helping develop my MA and progression development skills....  I really appreciate your input. 

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