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How long do you need to let wax dry before scraping?

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 

I wanted to start another thread on this instead of ask in where it was first mentioned.  Dominator Tom said one should wait at least 3 hours before scraping a hot wax job.  I'm curious as to if there is any research or science to support this.  It seems to me that the wax hardens a lot quicker than that, and even deep in the pores I have a hard time believing that it is still doing anything at the molecular level after maybe an hour (or even less.)

post #2 of 16

Your statement is only partially correct with regards to cure time.  3 hours is for the base renews and I think the zooms.  Bullet is 15-30 minutes so it depends on the wax.

 

I don't understand why but what I do know, is when I've only let zoom wax cure for 30 minutes, I ended up with a dull finish and skis, possibly only in my head, that didn't seem the fast.  When I let them sit overnight, it looks and feels great.  They have the just been buff luster instead of being dull and hazy.

 

I think of it like epoxy curing.  It might be dry to the touch and at room temp, but that doesn't mean that it will hold. 

 

If you are pressed for time, rub it on using something like Ray's Way.

post #3 of 16
The times I mention below presume the cooling cycle after waxing is always done at room temperature.

I scrape hard waxes within half an hour because I'm not looking for penetration of the wax as much as its presence. Scrapping it early means it cuts off, rather than chips off. The brush polishes, removes any excess wax and burnishes what is left into the structure. In my case I'm using TOKO Blue when I use these measures. I use a cheese grater to break it up and put it on the skis. The particles are small enough that they melt without flying off like dripped cold wax does when you iron it. This method is mostly just for racing.

Any blend this is less than 50 percent blue can be left longer than the 30 minutes without the chipping. For recreational waxing, I rarely go more than 50 percent blue. Around here, I usually wax Red. It is universally good here except for when it is really cold.

I wax, wait, scrape, ski without too much emphasis on wait. The other steps, especially the last, require much more attention. I do like to brush skis, race or recreational, and to keep things clean I wipe off the dust at the end.

Race skis are scraped as close to the morning of the race as practical. I like scraping skis in the morning; it gets the focus of the day started early.Then brushed and brushed a bit more.

As for D. Tom's advise, 30 minutes for blue leaves a wax the same consistency as warmer wax after 3 hours. The difference is that hard wax will get harder, where as the warmer wax will continue to scrape fairly easily.
post #4 of 16

  I  ski weekends nowadays...I tune mine and my wife's skis usually on Mondays/Tuesdays. Sometimes the wax stays on till Thursday. Does it make a difference to wait so long?? Doubt it...but why not let it sit? When tuning for racing, (for myself or other masters/juniors), I  usually get the skis at the end of the weekend...tune Mondays/Tuesdays. Sometimes the wax stays on till Thursday (did I just repeat myselfrolleyes.gif?)--and then adjust the wax for forecasted temps for the following weekend, of course (NOAA rocks!!). Point being, if you have the time, and you aren't sure...

 

  Having said that, of course DomTom is  knowledgeable--and correct. Wait at LEAST 3 hours...or morewink.gif  He's not the first one that I've heard this from, BTW. I have no science to offer--but I bet Dom Tom does...

 

 

       zenny


Edited by zentune - 1/26/13 at 7:15pm
post #5 of 16

The is a section on this very topic in the new paper, Wax Science Demystified, on the Dominator site.

http://dominatorwax.com/sites/default/files/dominator/wax-science-demystified.pdf

 

What it says on this issue is:

"Delivering wax to the base: The time element
Sufficient time must be allowed between ironing and scraping: When the wax is melted (liquid), the cards are in random positions, away from each other. As the wax cools and solidifies, the cards are on top of each other but they are not stacked well and internal friction is high. After some time the cards organize themselves to the tight deck and the minimum internal friction. The cooling must be slow, if it happens too quickly (like taking a warm ski outside) the cards freeze in a position that has higher internal friction. Typical “cooling” times between ironing and scraping are overnight for very soft waxes, three hours for normal (pink, universal) waxes, one hour for cold range waxes, and around 15 minutes for extreme cold waxes. If sufficient waiting time is not available, paste or rub-on waxes are the best options."

 

The "cards" is a recurring analogy to the wax elements in the paper.

 

So, essentially, Thanos is saying that the structure of the wax changes with time and, my take away is that it is better to think of it as curing than hardening (like the epoxy L&AirC mentioned)

post #6 of 16

I follow a different method. I use Maplus Race Base Medium Wax for everyday Freesking and Masters Racing. This wax is much harder, higher melt point then the average universal waxes, I follow the suggestion from both Maplus and Swix Wax Companies for harder waxes and actually Hot Scrape the skis as soon as I have finished ironing. If you wait for the wax to cool without first scraping the scraping become a Royal PITA. I then let the skis cool for a minimum of one hour but prefer overnight. I then Roto-Brush them out with a brass brush following with a quick brush with a soft nylon. Have been very pleased with the results and even happier with the reduced time and effort required. When using Maplus Race Base Soft Wax for initial base saturation prep I let the skis cool overnight and then scrape and brush.

post #7 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

The is a section on this very topic in the new paper, Wax Science Demystified, on the Dominator site.

http://dominatorwax.com/sites/default/files/dominator/wax-science-demystified.pdf

 

What it says on this issue is:

"Delivering wax to the base: The time element
Sufficient time must be allowed between ironing and scraping: When the wax is melted (liquid), the cards are in random positions, away from each other. As the wax cools and solidifies, the cards are on top of each other but they are not stacked well and internal friction is high. After some time the cards organize themselves to the tight deck and the minimum internal friction. The cooling must be slow, if it happens too quickly (like taking a warm ski outside) the cards freeze in a position that has higher internal friction. Typical “cooling” times between ironing and scraping are overnight for very soft waxes, three hours for normal (pink, universal) waxes, one hour for cold range waxes, and around 15 minutes for extreme cold waxes. If sufficient waiting time is not available, paste or rub-on waxes are the best options."

 

The "cards" is a recurring analogy to the wax elements in the paper.

 

So, essentially, Thanos is saying that the structure of the wax changes with time and, my take away is that it is better to think of it as curing than hardening (like the epoxy L&AirC mentioned)

   Great post, vsirin !icon14.gificon14.gificon14.gif  I was too tired from skiing for typing---glad you did itsmile.gif Everyone that is interested should read the link posted. I have---it's very informative!!!

 

    zentune

post #8 of 16

To expand on what Vsirin correctly said, I have summarized the relevant portion of the manual and the pictures below should tell the story.

 

This is what happens:

 

The wax absorbs heat to melt, then it gives it up to the environment as it solidifies. The first step, liquid to solid, happens very quickly and you can see it solidify after you pass over the wax with the iron. Then the wax continues to release more heat, but now very slowly, and while this is happening it starts to rearrange its condition to its most slippery form. We like to call this step “wax annealing”. This annealing step happens much faster for hard waxes than it does for soft waxes and this is the reason for the different waiting times.

 

Once you exceed the waiting time and the wax has fully cured, you can wait as long as you want before scraping and brushing. The wax stays annealed unless you heat it up again.

post #9 of 16

@ JMD

 

This was explained to me in great detail and it is not immediately obvious, but it makes a lot of sense when spelled out.

 

It is always better to scrape the wax cold --- and by cold, I mean room temperature --- as the warmer it is when you scrape, the less wax stays in the base. For example, when you hot scrape you leave very little wax in the base.

 

You have two things happening when you remove wax: Cohesion (how strongly the wax sticks to itself) and adhesion (how strongly the wax sticks to the base). Cohesion is a function of temperature and the wax is less cohesive when it is warmer; this is why wax is easier to scrape when warm. Adhesion of the wax to the base determines how durable it will be during skiing.

 

When it comes to scraping the hard waxes cold; I read two problems mentioned, “the Royal PITA” of scraping the hard wax and the flaking/peeling off the base, leaving bare areas (you have not mentioned that specifically, but others have).

 

To the difficulty of scraping a cold (hard) wax, I say use a very sharp scraper. Scraping hard waxes when they are cold is for sure difficult, but it leaves more wax in the base compared to scraping them when warm; this is a good thing when you are dealing with abrasive snow and with a very hard wax that does not penetrate too deeply anyway. I was just at the Wax Room in Ketchum (Sun Valley) and the owner, Curtis Bacca, has an electric scraper sharpener that he paid over $200 for. He said it was a deal as they use very hard waxes frequently and sharp scrapers make all the difference.

 

As to the wax flaking off, if the wax is well designed this should not happen. Ok, so you managed to keep some wax on the base by not scraping cold; if the wax does not adhere to the base well enough to survive a room temperature scrape, it will not last very long on the base once it is scraped by the snow at snow temperatures.

 

You are waiting sufficiently long before brushing and skiing and this is a good thing.

post #10 of 16

Tom, thanks for the post about scraping. I'm simply reporting the results I have had by following the Hot Scrape Method. I originally waited to scrape until the skis had properly cooled. I found it required only extra labor to scrape, did not suffer flaking. After reading  posts from Terry the owner of Slidewright (he quoted from the Swix and Maplus Manuals), I elected to try Hot Scraping the Maplus Race Base Medium Wax. My personal result have shown no loss of wax saturation, glide or durability. I do extra cycles of wax saturation with soft base wax on New Skis or freshly ground bases. This may help explain my maintaining the saturation with Hot Scraping. You may have found different results. James.


Edited by JMD - 1/28/13 at 10:04am
post #11 of 16

I am a bit suspect of roto-brushing a frshly scraped ski with a brass roto.

 

It has always been my contention and the official position of the brush companies that the first brush after scraping should be a stiff horsehair???

post #12 of 16

Holmenkol recommended a stiff brass or steel as the first brush with moderate to hard waxes when I bought my set as did Graham Lonetto from Edgewise, a former WC tech. Swix shows a stiff bronze as the first brush after waxing.

 

"Swix Oval Bronze Coarse Brush T0181B Use before waxing for refreshing bases Also use as first brush after scraping wax."

 

 

 

Others, like yourself, recommend stiff horsehair. Tognar recommends Stiff Nylon first unless a very hard wax then brass is first. Seems like in so much of ski racing perparation, a classic non-consensus.

post #13 of 16
i typically start (after scraping) with an older oval soft steel/hh brush (blunt tips due to age), then follow up with either svst hh roto or oval medium brass...

zenny
post #14 of 16

Does it not, at least partially,  depend on the was hardness?

post #15 of 16

A straight, square and sharp scraper is where it starts.

Here is how I prepare my scrapers.

150 grit, 280 grit then 400 grit.

Carbide block to hold the scraper dead square on my granite surface plate.

 

And don't forget to tape when working on side edges....

 

My simple tuning bench with wax catcher...

post #16 of 16
for sure a-man, imho;) for a soft ch (yellow) i forgo the metal brushes...using a hh and nylon cycle instead:)

i dont use straight yellow (or straight red)that much though....
zenny
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