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tuning edges for east coast hard pack/ice - Page 6

post #151 of 171

OP,

 

I think you interpreted my post opposite. if you measured what I think you did and got a 1.5 deg bevel, per the ski visions numbers, that is really a 3 degree bevel. I think this explains things.

post #152 of 171

To try and say it simply, if you have a 1 degree bevel, your metal edge is .0015 inch below the base level.  Your .004 says you have greater than 3 deg bevel. You won't be able to turn for sh...t

post #153 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by bttocs View Post
 

To try and say it simply, if you have a 1 degree bevel, your metal edge is .0015 inch below the base level.  Your .004 says you have greater than 3 deg bevel. You won't be able to turn for sh...t

 

The only way I was skiing was to be moving above 17mph so I could get the skis on edge, the more on-edge I got them, the better I was able to bite into the snow.  But sometimes you can't ski that far over on your edges especially if the trail is narrow and icy, this was where the skis failed me.

 

I will will retest the skis once I can hit the slopes but with this warm raining weather of late, things don't look promising.  But now I have an 0.75/3 tune it appears.  Should I convert it to 1/3 or buy a 0.75 base bevel for this ski now?

post #154 of 171

Measuring the base edge at .0015 or .004 is going to be unreliable.  I would never do it with feeler gauges.

 

Why not use the "normal" method?  A straight edge isn't hard to get,  a credit card will do.

 

1 mm up, and 57.4 mm over equals one degree when the light goes out at the base edge. 

 

Soh  Cah Toa , Sine Cosine and Tangent   Simple trig and it's easy.   At these small angles the Sine and the Tangent are  interchangeable within the limits of determination.

 

 

 

Measuring the difference in thousandths, over a distance in small fractions is a fools errand.

post #155 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikolbyi View Post
 

 

Here is the catch... This will be my first experience with a base angle of 0.75 degree.  If you are saying I will enjoy it more then that means I should purchase a 0.75 base angle filer and not use my 1 degree base file on this ski making it a 1 degree.

 

Nooo! Stop! I'm actually saying not to touch the base edge again. At most you're going to run a diamond stone gently along part of it on its flat, but no files, so no need to use a guide. Your sharpness comes from tuning the side edge, not the base edge. In the 2 years since buying a base guide, I've had no reason to use it. 

 

Every time you run a file or even with several diamond stone passes you will worsen the base edge angle. 

 

Side edge only.

post #156 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 

I'm actually saying don't touch the base edge again. At most you're going to run a diamond stone gently along part of it on its flat, but no files, so no need to use a guide. Your sharpness comes from tuning the side edge, not the base edge.

 

Every time you run a file or even with several diamond stone passes you will worsen the base edge angle. 

 

Side edge only.

 

I touch the base edge only if I hit a rock and need to 'repair' it by trying to take out the nicks.   Otherwise I never did touch the base.  Of the skis in the household, the only other ski I had to use my base edger on was my son's because he loves to do jumps and ski through the woods.  I'm amazed he hasn't destroyed his skis by now...credit to Volkl for making a durable product.

post #157 of 171
My god! Hello any one home....Simple question what was the length so that the math can be checked. Your numbers mean nothing with out this.

Sorry have to do this Beating_A_Dead_Horse_by_livius.gif
post #158 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikolbyi View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bttocs View Post

 
To try and say it simply, if you have a 1 degree bevel, your metal edge is .0015 inch below the base level.  Your .004 says you have greater than 3 deg bevel. You won't be able to turn for sh...t

The only way I was skiing was to be moving above 17mph so I could get the skis on edge, the more on-edge I got them, the better I was able to bite into the snow.  But sometimes you can't ski that far over on your edges especially if the trail is narrow and icy, this was where the skis failed me.

I will will retest the skis once I can hit the slopes but with this warm raining weather of late, things don't look promising.  But now I have an 0.75/3 tune it appears.  Should I convert it to 1/3 or buy a 0.75 base bevel for this ski now?

I wouldn't. It'll eventually get to 1 anyway, this has given you extra time. Yes, you might find these a hair grabby, but you'll adjust.
post #159 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bttocs View Post

.... he told me I think too much and to turn off my brain.


On a related note, the trainers at my mountain have been telling me for years that I think too much - regarding developing my skiing skills.

Last week one said that again and I asked him "have I greatly improved my skiing in all the years you've known me?"  He replied "definitely, a lot!" 

I then said "Well I've been thinking the entire time!"
My brain skis a lot better than my feet do - and not in a Walter Mitty way.
post #160 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post


I wouldn't. It'll eventually get to 1 anyway, this has given you extra time. Yes, you might find these a hair grabby, but you'll adjust.

 

I have found through experimenting a bit, base bevel in the 0-.5 range is noticeably quick and grabby, in the .7-1.2 range the skis perform great, and bigger than 1.5 or 2.0 and they feel like you don't have any grip anymore (or at least they don't feel good).  Again, this applies to hard pack where your edge engagement is dictating the skis behavior. Doesn't apply in soft deep snow.

 

I would not touch a base bevel of 0.7, just ski it like Sibh says.

 

Also, use the straight edge and the 60mm for 1mm for 1 deg. rule, I think I got that right. I put my straight edge with the 60 mm mark on my edges, rotate the angle till no back light comes through just the edge part, and then use the feel gauge to measure the vertical gap bewteen the ski bottom and the end of the straight edge. 1 mm = 0,039 IN so it is a lot more precise measurement. Pretty easy to tell which side of 1 deg you are on.

 

I use Summit Ski shop in Framingham, MA, which is where SkiMD works (check out his website) and those guys are so experienced they grab your ski and a straight edge, hold it up to the light and they can eyeball the base bevel pretty accurately. If I tune a batch of skis, and use the feeler gauges, I can almost do it myself by eyeball when I am done.

post #161 of 171
 

 

Originally Posted by bttocs View Post
 

 

I have found through experimenting a bit, base bevel in the 0-.5 range is noticeably quick and grabby, in the .7-1.2 range the skis perform great, and bigger than 1.5 or 2.0 and they feel like you don't have any grip anymore (or at least they don't feel good).  Again, this applies to hard pack where your edge engagement is dictating the skis behavior. Doesn't apply in soft deep snow.

 

I would not touch a base bevel of 0.7, just ski it like Sibh says.

 

Also, use the straight edge and the 60mm for 1mm for 1 deg. rule, I think I got that right. I put my straight edge with the 60 mm mark on my edges, rotate the angle till no back light comes through just the edge part, and then use the feel gauge to measure the vertical gap bewteen the ski bottom and the end of the straight edge. 1 mm = 0,039 IN so it is a lot more precise measurement. Pretty easy to tell which side of 1 deg you are on.

 

I use Summit Ski shop in Framingham, MA, which is where SkiMD works (check out his website) and those guys are so experienced they grab your ski and a straight edge, hold it up to the light and they can eyeball the base bevel pretty accurately. If I tune a batch of skis, and use the feeler gauges, I can almost do it myself by eyeball when I am done.

Yeah, the thing to do is really learn to visualize your desired base edge bevel just as you have described. If you like a .7 measure and look at it and emblazon it in your mind, pretty soon you will have a very good feel just by looking at it. 

 

Or you can buy the SVST Bevelmeter! 

 

post #162 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by bttocs View Post
 

 

I use Summit Ski shop in Framingham, MA, which is where SkiMD works (check out his website) and those guys are so experienced they grab your ski and a straight edge, hold it up to the light and they can eyeball the base bevel pretty accurately. If I tune a batch of skis, and use the feeler gauges, I can almost do it myself by eyeball when I am done.

 

I live in North West NJ and my options are limited and the snow conditions....we'll just simply say they suck.  We in this area either ski on ice or 'mash potatoes' as the season comes to a close.  

post #163 of 171
Originally Posted by ikolbyi View Post
 

oldschoolskier - relax, sit back, have a cognac and fine cigar.  I took the skis to the shop, and the head guy there for over 30 years worked on them.  

 

His words not mine:  I did a decent job maintaining, waxing, side cut/sharpening, including all the p-tex repairs I performed, except (and he agreed) the base bevel was completely off.  He was crystal clear on the 1/3 tune request but unfortunately when I returned to pick them up he told me he was having an issue with the machine in setting a 1 degree base therefore could not guarantee it.  I saw him take a true bar and look at the ski in the light and he told me the base bevel is probably closer to 0.75 degrees based on his eyeball.

 

When I got home I use the automotive feeler gauge to see how far off, the 0.002 registered (not the 0.0025 like the other skis in my household) so he was right it is less than 1 degree, probably 0.75 degree base now.  A far cry from 0.004 registering prior to the service being performed.

 

The side bevel is 3 degrees.  Next stop the slopes, however it has been 50 degrees outside and raining the past 2 days, the mountain is washing away now :(

 

 

 

Ok, I must be crazy, but I read this whole post. The OP does not understand what the knowledgable posters are saying, no offense IK, I have gone through the learning curve he has and I (think) I understand what he is measuring. Its the gap from the base ptex level down to the edge tip, which is on the order of .001 in and cannot be accurately measured with a feeler gauge. IK's numbers are best guesses.  I tried to measure this the same way the first time and realized it wouldn't work. Found the 60mm, 1 deg, 1 mm technique and never looked back.

 

IK,  based on your measurements, you don't have a .75 deg base bevel, you have a 1.5 deg. base bevel. If you measure greater than .0015 inches by your techninque you are greater than 1 deg.  TO THE POINT, don't measure it the way you did, it is not accurate. You have proved you now have a lower deg. base bevel than your Volkl's, that's about all.  You have to do it the way the posters are showing you. If you don't measure a number close to .040 inches, you are not doing it right and need to get more clarification. Please read the posted instructions more carefully.  You have to measure the gap 60 mm from the edge, with the true bar pivoted on the edge to match the edge angle. Give it some thought.

 

You had really high base bevels, like about 3+ deg. and that is why you are having issues. You should be a lot better now. Can't really comment until you do the measurement properly and then what the others have said will make sense and you will find it is correct. It has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Once the base is correct, then you will become sensitive to the side angle and all the rest.

post #164 of 171

Whelp the verdict is in.after 1.5 hours on the slopes with them.  Conditions:  last night was 44 degrees and raining, today this afternoon the sky is blue, temperate is 30 degrees outside and a killer cold wind blowing,  Mountain: H-A-R-D, brick hard.  Thought my teeth fillings were going to rattle out.

 

The store I took them at, I don't believe he de-tuned my tips, had an issue getting off the lift because the tips dug in and I had a hard time initiating a turn.  By the 3rd run I felt like I was able to actually ski the ski.  So the answer everyone is waiting for:  no I didn't crash and burn down the mountain.  No I didn't slide off the side of the mountain.  Yes it was leaps and bounds improvement where we can have an actual apples-to-apples conversation in comparing the two skis.  No, they did not bite into the ice like my Volkl, the Volkls still reign king in that department but I no longer feel it is an issue and the Kastle skis are ski-able now.

 

Here is how I would rate the skis now (using letter grades):

 

Overall Weight:  Kastle: B; Volkl: C

Snow Grip and Flotation (fluffy white stuff greater than 2 inches deep): Kastle: A; Volkl B (being generous to Volkl on this one)

Ice & Hardpack Grip: Kastle: B; Volkl: A

Ease in initiating Turns: Kastle: A; Volkl: B

Stiffness: Kastle: B; Volkl: A

Overall Performance:  Kastle: A- ; Volkl:B+

 

Yes overall I find the Kastle more appealing as a 1 ski owner for my area.

post #165 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikolbyi View Post
 

 

The store I took them at, I don't believe he de-tuned my tips, had an issue getting off the lift because the tips dug in and I had a hard time initiating a turn.  By the 3rd run I felt like I was able to actually ski the ski.  

 

Be glad he didn't...you don't detune anymore on modern ski with modern tuning methods.  That what base bevel does more effectively and predictably than detuning ever did.

post #166 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post
 

 

Be glad he didn't...you don't detune anymore on modern ski with modern tuning methods.  That what base bevel does more effectively and predictably than detuning ever did.

OMG..Do I dare mention the hanging burrrrrrrrrrrrrr!  :eek   :ROTF

post #167 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

 

Be glad he didn't...you don't detune anymore on modern ski with modern tuning methods.  That what base bevel does more effectively and predictably than detuning ever did.
OMG..Do I dare mention the hanging burrrrrrrrrrrrrr!  eek.gif    ROTF.gif

Of course.......beercheer.gif
post #168 of 171

I mean no disrespect to any and all parties involved, in fact, I applaud all those involved for remaining as civilized as you all did but, (O M G!!!) following along through this whole ordeal has been like watching a soap opera.  I could miss reading any new posts for a few days and catch right up with current affairs because nothing seemed to change.  Reading through this was one of the most painful things I've ever done.  It was like driving head on into a speeding locomotive because I just couldn't take my eyes off the big bright light. lol

 

I'm very happy to hear the end result was good and, again, I applaud any and all that stuck it out and helped him work through this, painful to read, ordeal.:beercheer: To all of you!!!

post #169 of 171

Got internet activated in my new place.  A lot to catch ;up on.

 

The problem I have with measuring the base bevel with a true bar is making sure the true bar is truly resting flat on the metal edge, especially if that edge has seen a lot of tuning. 

 

You need to know how far from the metal edge you are taking your measurement.  If you also have a long bevel (edge bevel eating into the p-tex) it adds to the confusing.

 

Just take (if you haven't done so already) it to a shop and get them to do a base grind and set the base bevel (I would set it to 0.5 degrees, but 1 degree is livable).

 

OP's comment about needing to ski faster to get edges engaged is telling.  It tells me that he has trouble getting a big enough tipping angle on his skis at slow speeds (not enough angulation), and will be more noticeable with skis having longer turn radius and much more noticeable with skis that have too much base bevel on HARD ice. 

 

Also, giving the devil his due, if ski is only making edge contact under foot, same weight / smaller contact area = more pressure and will help grip on hard surface, but wont help with tip and tail engagement for proper skiing technique.  Also don't recall what skis we are comparing, but torsional rigidity of RTM is very good,  and if the other ski has weaker torsional rigidity it will still give poorer grip even with sharp edges.

post #170 of 171
You're late. He's taken it to the shop, skied on it, and is happy-ish.
post #171 of 171
Don't forget that the RTM also rewards a centered, almost skatey stance, requiring zero progressive pressure development tip - tail. If OP has the patience to work through some of the slow motion pressure transfer drills it might change his relative outlook on the two ski designs.
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