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Epicski showed me how to wax my own skis, what's next?

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 

So thanks to everyone's help on here I've become able to put a nice waxing on my family's skis.   We all went out last night and everyone was thrilled about how fast their skis were and how good we all skied.

 

What's next Epicski?  

 

I get all of our skis completely tuned before each season, but would like to start doing some edge work during the year.  I ski about 20-30 times per year so one time doing the edges per year obviously isn't going to cut it.

post #2 of 27

Do all family members' skis have the same side edge bevel?

post #3 of 27
Thread Starter 

No idea vs...   That's the type of thing that scares me about edging.

 

Here's what we ski:

 

Dad:  K2 EXT twin tips (same as the public enemy's)

Mom:  K2 Omnii Hawk

Son 1:  Vokyl Unlimiteds

Son 2:  Elan Pro Race (kids)
 

I do have an old pair of K2 Escape's I can practice my edging technique on without destroying our nice skis

post #4 of 27

I don't know most of those skis. How old are your kids? Where do you ski mostly? What approximate level skier is each of you?

post #5 of 27
Thread Starter 

My kids are 7 & 10.   They are both level 3/4 skiers.   We ski in MN on man made snow mostly (sucks!)

 

My wife is a level 6 skier and I'm about a level 8.

post #6 of 27

Your kids are probably a 1 degree side edge and 1 degree base and if not they should be.

 

Do you have a preference for a 2 or 3 degree side edge? How about your wife?

post #7 of 27
Thread Starter 

vs,

 

I don't know to be honest.   I'd probably prefer to just keep our skis as is and just tune them up.   I've never skied one then the other to know the difference...

post #8 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by focker View Post

vs,

 

I don't know to be honest.   I'd probably prefer to just keep our skis as is and just tune them up.   I've never skied one then the other to know the difference...

"Tuning" includes, at least to me, getting rid of any burrs with a stone (like after hitting a rock), filling in any holes or gouges in the base with P-TEX, and sharpening the skis when necessary.  You will likely leave the base angle alone on all your skis.  Sharpening all the skis using the same side bevel will make things easier for you, but there are good multi-angle guides that you can use if you want the kids skis to have a lesser side edge (and you want to save money).  There are several threads on EPICSKI regarding all of this, and lot of videos can be found using an Internet search.  P-TEX candles cost next to nothing.  Occasionally you see a base welding gizmo go for cheap on ebay, but you likely will never need one skiing small hills.  You should get a decent mill file, some diamond stones for polishing the edges, an Arkansas stone for those nasty edge burrs, and a sharp metal scraper for those P-TEX base repairs.  Again, there are other threads about all of this.  None of this stuff is rocket science (except for the racers).

post #9 of 27

Ok, call the shop that did your work and ask them what edge they put on each or bring them in and have them tell you. You need to know what angles they have to sharpen them and we won't get into changing any angles.

 

First off, there is a high probability that all of the skis have a 1 degree base bevel. Unless any of the skis has damage to the edge, you will just leave the base bevel alone.

 

For maintaining the side edges, you will need a side edge guide. I expect that you will need to do a 1 degree edge for the kids and either a 2 or a 3 degree for your and Mrs. F's skis. There are people who like the adjustable models but I've found that most people who actually tune their skis with any regularity end up with fixed file guides so I'd recommend starting with them. There are at least 2 models I think are good (I just do this myself and don't have a shop or anything) that will fit your needs.  Other people undoubtedly like other models better. The 2 I'd recommend that you pick between are the Sun Valley Ski Tools and the Beast side edge guide.

 

I have the SVST product so I'll talk about that one - get a 1 degree and either a 1 or 2 degree shim (it fits into a slot on the file guide). For the kids skis (assuming they are 1 DEGREE SET) you just use the file guide and the diamond files. For your other skis, you will  need the 1 degree shim on the 1 degree guide to produce a 2 degree side edge (1+1) or the 2 degree shim on the 1 degree guide to produce a 3 degree edge (1+2). (they make shims for the Beast also).

 

You put the ski on edge in your vise, base toward you. You clamp the file to the file guide so it is sticking out past the guide and any shim you have in it. You put the flat shiny side of the file guide against the base and sharpen. Start with a coarse file, then medium, then fine. You could use Diamond Moonflex 200, 400, 600. (the 200 is the coarse).

1000

post #10 of 27
Thread Starter 

Great info.   That doesn't look all that complicated...  

post #11 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

Your kids are probably a 1 degree side edge and 1 degree base and if not they should be.

 

 

 

Why? Why not 2 or 3 for the kids just like ma or pa?

post #12 of 27

For recreational skis, there's very little reason not to do them all at 1-degree base and 3-degrees side.  The idea that 2-degree sides lasts longer has been debunked.  It doesn't really matter what the factory tune was.  Just file/stone the skis to 1/3.  One tool that may help with this is a sidewall planer.  The main tools, however, are a base bevel guide, a side edge guide, some files and some diamond stones.

post #13 of 27
Focker - just to comment on this:  
Quote:
Originally Posted by focker View Post

Great info.   That doesn't look all that complicated...  

 

It's really not.  Tuning skis doesn't require any real special skills or talents, just time, patience, and adult beverages.

post #14 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrendonR View Post

Focker - just to comment on this:  

 

It's really not.  Tuning skis doesn't require any real special skills or talents, just time, patience, and adult beverages.

icon14.gif

post #15 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by UGASkiDawg View Post

 

Why? Why not 2 or 3 for the kids just like ma or pa?

   A 3* is too aggressive for a non-racing child to learn on. A 1/1 creates a 90*, which should have PLENTY of edge hold for lighter_weight, less experienced, younger skiers.

 

 

    zentune

post #16 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

   A 3* is too aggressive for a non-racing child to learn on. A 1/1 creates a 90*, which should have PLENTY of edge hold for lighter_weight, less experienced, younger skiers.


    zentune

I've tuned all my families skis the same; 1/3. Including my grandson who learned last year at 6 and my daughters when she was learning. Why would I do such a thing? Because I now that a new skier, especially a child, isn't going to lay the skis over on edge. The base edge is the only thing that matters.

Yes 1/1 is plenty for them but a 1/3 will have no negative effects since they won't be able to use it.
post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post


I've tuned all my families skis the same; 1/3. Including my grandson who learned last year at 6 and my daughters when she was learning. Why would I do such a thing? Because I now that a new skier, especially a child, isn't going to lay the skis over on edge. The base edge is the only thing that matters.

Yes 1/1 is plenty for them but a 1/3 will have no negative effects since they won't be able to use it.

   Fair enough...still could be overly "grabby", though, as it's simply a more acute angle. Typically, beginner skis (and some intermediates)  come from the factory 1/1...But yes, base bevel is what dictates how quickly a ski engages. Side edge dictates it's "bite". You will find few, if any, ski shops willing to impart a 3* side on such a ski, for instance. High, inadvertent angles, ARE sometimes generated by inexperienced/young skiers...

 

 

    Zentune


Edited by zentune - 1/16/13 at 7:53pm
post #18 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by UGASkiDawg View Post

 

Why? Why not 2 or 3 for the kids just like ma or pa?


These are kids described as at level 3 or 4 which is basically lots of snowplowing some beginning of parallel. I suppose if someone wanted them to have sharp 3 degree edges that they don't use, it would not be terrible but I can't see a benefit to the child and my guess (no data to back it up) would be there may be more falling from edges grabbing. But do I think it is a big deal? no, would I do it? no. I was relying on "conventional wisdom" that beginners do better on 1/1.

post #19 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post


These are kids described as at level 3 or 4 which is basically lots of snowplowing some beginning of parallel. I suppose if someone wanted them to have sharp 3 degree edges that they don't use, it would not be terrible but I can't see a benefit to the child and my guess (no data to back it up) would be there may be more falling from edges grabbing. But do I think it is a big deal? no, would I do it? no. I was relying on "conventional wisdom" that beginners do better on 1/1.

My reason for doing the kids skis at 1/3 is consistency. I'm a manufacturing guy and know that the more processes I have, the greater the chance of me messing things up. Like using a 1 or 2 side edge guide on my skis!

1/1 is all they need.

If you give them a 1/3, it will be there when do need it.

I coach a seasonal program and I see some of the kids struggling because of the tune, or lack of a tune on their "Barbie" skis.
post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post


My reason for doing the kids skis at 1/3 is consistency. I'm a manufacturing guy and know that the more processes I have, the greater the chance of me messing things up. Like using a 1 or 2 side edge guide on my skis!

1/1 is all they need.

If you give them a 1/3, it will be there when do need it.

I coach a seasonal program and I see some of the kids struggling because of the tune, or lack of a tune on their "Barbie" skis.

   Still, though...I don't want everyone in ether-land that reads this to start tuning their children's skis this way. It's not necessary, and could be a safety issue. A 90* (1/1) can still be quite sharp--and proper/regular maintenance with diamond stones can keep it this wayicon14.gif. Having said that, I have experienced mistakes when tuning my fleet (9 pairs for me and my wiferolleyes.gif)--so I've learned to keep a notebook on my bench with each pair's tuning history: base bevels, side bevels, # of waxings, type of waxes used, etc... Same holds true for when I tune as a tech--a detailed history for what you've done on someone's pair of FIS GS'ers, for instance, comes in handy later in the season wink.gif!

 

     zenny

post #21 of 27

I wasn't arguing just genuinely curious.  Both of my girls are racers and after their first season of racing I had to learn to tune.  Prior to that my skis would get tuned once per year and never touched again till the next year except to ski.  My skis still don't get much love since I'm always tuning kids race and training skisredface.gif

 

Anyway....I bought a bunch of equipment and started experimenting with different side angles.  I put a 3* on one of the kids skis for practice doing it and then she loved those skis and didn't want to ski anything else.  I put 3 on rest of her skis and and the other kids skis and we have stayed that way for the last 2 years.  

 

Whenever I talk about it with the other parents or even the techs when I take them in for a full base grind I get weird reactions like I shouldn't have 3* almost as if it were dangerous.  I could see that .5 base bevel might have some negative effects but can't really understand why a sharper edge would ever be considered a bad thing.  

post #22 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by focker View Post

 

What's next Epicski?  

 

 

 

 

World Peace.

post #23 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by UGASkiDawg View Post

I wasn't arguing just genuinely curious.  Both of my girls are racers and after their first season of racing I had to learn to tune.  Prior to that my skis would get tuned once per year and never touched again till the next year except to ski.  My skis still don't get much love since I'm always tuning kids race and training skisredface.gif

 

Anyway....I bought a bunch of equipment and started experimenting with different side angles.  I put a 3* on one of the kids skis for practice doing it and then she loved those skis and didn't want to ski anything else.  I put 3 on rest of her skis and and the other kids skis and we have stayed that way for the last 2 years.  

 

Whenever I talk about it with the other parents or even the techs when I take them in for a full base grind I get weird reactions like I shouldn't have 3* almost as if it were dangerous.  I could see that .5 base bevel might have some negative effects but can't really understand why a sharper edge would ever be considered a bad thing.  

   Mainly because, in the right (or wrong, depending on your pov) conditions e.g., very cold, dry, "chalky", hard snow, such an acute angle might hook up and then not let go...especially for less experienced skiers. Not trying to bust your chops smile.gif, just trying to help...

 

     zenny

post #24 of 27

    As a follow-up, I will quickly say (gotta get to tunin' myselfwink.gif) many racers will detune (with a gummy, for instance) or re-set the bevels (less acute) for hard chalky snow, so the ski "releases" easier....

 

 

   zenny

post #25 of 27
Thread Starter 

More excellent info.  I think I'm just going to go with the 1/1 edges on their skies.   I'm going to have mine and my wife's done again and have them check the angles so I know where they are currently set.

 

I ski with an aggressive GS style and my wife does as well.   My oldest child is more tentative and likes making more slalom style turns and really carve the corners.  My younger son is nuts and just flies right down the fall line looking for every jump he can hit.  Both are taking several lessons this March to work on faster GS style turns so I don't have to slow down as much for them ;)

post #26 of 27

Seems to me the whole family would be happy with a 1 degree base and a 2 degree side bevel.  Less chance of mixing things up, and enough side bevel for the parents.  Also a lot of skis come with these factory bevels.  You can always buy the 3 degree side bevel guide and the .5 degree base guide if your kids get into racing.

post #27 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

   Still, though...I don't want everyone in ether-land that reads this to start tuning their children's skis this way. It's not necessary, and could be a safety issue. A 90* (1/1) can still be quite sharp--and proper/regular maintenance with diamond stones can keep it this wayicon14.gif. Having said that, I have experienced mistakes when tuning my fleet (9 pairs for me and my wiferolleyes.gif)--so I've learned to keep a notebook on my bench with each pair's tuning history: base bevels, side bevels, # of waxings, type of waxes used, etc... Same holds true for when I tune as a tech--a detailed history for what you've done on someone's pair of FIS GS'ers, for instance, comes in handy later in the season wink.gif!

 

     zenny

I also keep a notebook with tuning details, which is great for my home bench. But I also write the base/edge angles on the sidewall of the ski incase i am tuning on the road and old timers disease sets in. I also suffer from CRS (can't remember shit).. We just have two many skis in our household to remember all the details.

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