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Beginning or End of an Era at Jackson Hole? - - - You Decide! - Page 3

post #61 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ske-Bum View Post

There are times I wish they could groom all of Squaw, right now being one of them, the moguls are horrible mess in certain areas and I find myself cutting out to the groomers at various points. Now will this ever happen, no. I just have to sit around like every other local and pray for the big reset button from above, in the form of snow. 

 

Ha - I said the same thing earlier in this thread.  Even the 10 - 15 inches of snow we got starting last Thursday wasn't enough to overcome the holiday bump carnage.  They could definitely groom some wider swaths of snow than usual and I don't think anyone at Squaw would complain.

post #62 of 85

Yawn.  Wake me up when they groom Corbet's.

post #63 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post

Today, January 14, 2013, is a milestone day for the Jackson Hole Mountain Resort.  For the first time ever in the history of the resort, the snowcats groomed the Cirque.


Even before today, the debate was already raging.  Is this is just one more example of "sissifying" a venerable expert mountain or are they simply using the technology and equipment that's now available to give more skiers more of what they want?  

 

What do YOU think?

 

And here's looking up from Upper Amphitheater:

 

 

 

 

Doesn't sound like you felt like a sissy skiing down it Bob!

I'd say it's more like Euroizing it, where there's groomed next to the ungroomed gnarly stuff.

Plus, it gives the groomers a place to do advanced level grooming...cool.gif

post #64 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by at_nyc View Post

Any other mountain, I'd probably echo that "stop the brutal grooming" slogan. But JH? Well, it's got such a high percentage of expert terrain, it's not that big a deal...


+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHREDHEAD View Post

I would imagine that there are times in the spring when it's coral reef and even the most hard core will ski a groomer.

 

Also +1, confirmed by Bob's observation above.  There are mountains that groom too much and become too homogenous. JH will never be one of those.

 

Quote:
To be honest, following the holiday onslaught I wish Squaw and Alpine had done more of this so when fresh snow fell it would have been nicer to ski on instead of hitting hard icy bumps and chunks after every powder turn.

+2 This is an even bigger issue at JH, where the snow is lighter and the subsurface with the sunny exposure can be quite difficult.

post #65 of 85

I understand how intermediate skiers would be supportive of this style grooming as it can open up parts of the mountain that would be inaccessible to them if it was left natural. But in my opinion, it should be left natural and if you want to get to these parts of the mountain, ski more and get better.

post #66 of 85

From a business perspective I understand the desire to increase mountain accessibility to more and more skiers.  But speaking strictly as a skier who loves that mountain, I dislike changes like this.  Really dislike.   I think this is neither the beginning nor end of an era but simply another step towards the homogenization of the skiing experience in the context of corporate profit goals and risk reduction.

 

I think I'm grumpy because I have the flu, but there you have it.

post #67 of 85

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altanaut View Post

From a business perspective I understand the desire to increase mountain accessibility to more and more skiers.  But speaking strictly as a skier who loves that mountain, I dislike changes like this.  Really dislike.   I think this is neither the beginning nor end of an era but simply another step towards the homogenization of the skiing experience in the context of corporate profit goals and risk reduction.

 

I think I'm grumpy because I have the flu, but there you have it.

 

If that's upsetting, what about 120mm banana chip skis that allow people accessibility to places they couldn't ski without them?

post #68 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Quote:

 

If that's upsetting, what about 120mm banana chip skis that allow people accessibility to places they couldn't ski without them?

 

I'm not familar with these "banana chip" skis. Help me out.

 

Does somebody skiing these skis lay down another set of tracks on soft snow, or do they demolish a 100 foot wide swath of snow?

post #69 of 85

Quote:

Originally Posted by anachronism View Post

 

I'm not familar with these "banana chip" skis. Help me out.

 

Does somebody skiing these skis lay down another set of tracks on soft snow, or do they demolish a 100 foot wide swath of snow?

 

Well groomers don't demolish the snow, they transform it.

As for the novices on the bananas, demolish may fit if you think one should earn access to powder.

Demolish like locusts?? or how much wood can a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could...and they can't but do?

 

Skis "that let me keep the speed up when it is super deep without burying the tips eating shi* and looking foolish...they are so floaty, so totally rad.."

 

- I Shred the gnar without even having to try...

The Truth About Powder Skis

 

 

post #70 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Skis "that let me keep the speed up when it is super deep without burying the tips eating shi* and looking foolish...they are so floaty, so totally rad.."

 

- I Shred the gnar without even having to try...

 

 

Hmmm, are you sure you're not talking about a snowboard?

post #71 of 85

When I backcountry ski, I don't go to a resort.  I grab my skins and huff it on up.  So, most of this conversation is a bunch of hot air.  If you want powder and pristine skiing, grab some skins, and huff it.  You're using a parking lot, and you're using lifts to get to the side country.  You're using the facilities and you're buying lift tickets.  The macho talk is simply hilarious.  You'll find plenty of pristine conditions outside the Jackson commercial operation.  Yet, you want a commercial operation to be what it is not - a pristine place, where you have to WORK to huff it up the mountain.  You'll have to do homework as well - you'll need to understand snow.

 

Jackson will continue to evolve into a more accessible commercial operation.  They won't survive running lifts for a bunch of flat broke ski drunks who aren't in good enough shape to huff it up a slope and use their lift tickets as a short cut.  

post #72 of 85

The terrain in the photos does not look too steep, so that maybe OK.  I am not a fan of groomers (as they tend to stop people from developing good technical skills), but that's a debate for another day.    My point is that the resorts should be very careful with grooming really steep runs- if you fall on that groomer, you are going down all the way, and when you arrive to that said "down" part, you will be carrying considerable speed, which would be pretty dangerous.

 

Last winter when we had no virtually no snow Squaw experimented with grooming Tower 16 run (Sundance on the new map).  On a frozen morning that groomed run felt like one of the scariest things I have ever done in Squaw....    Another story I heard is that is some point in the past Squaw got a winch cat and decided to groom the West Face off KT22.  People who were on that run remember that it has some nice big trees in the bottom.  Of course people started to fall and slide down towards those trees.  That was the end of grooming there.  

 

IMO the truly steep expert runs should stay ungroomed- they are more interested to good skiers that way, and keeping them ungroomed will keep out the "groomer hotshots", people who really should not be in that kind of terrain.  

post #73 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn View Post

The terrain in the photos does not look too steep, so that maybe OK.  I am not a fan of groomers (as they tend to stop people from developing good technical skills), but that's a debate for another day.    My point is that the resorts should be very careful with grooming really steep runs- if you fall on that groomer, you are going down all the way, and when you arrive to that said "down" part, you will be carrying considerable speed, which would be pretty dangerous.

 

Last winter when we had no virtually no snow Squaw experimented with grooming Tower 16 run (Sundance on the new map).  On a frozen morning that groomed run felt like one of the scariest things I have ever done in Squaw....    Another story I heard is that is some point in the past Squaw got a winch cat and decided to groom the West Face off KT22.  People who were on that run remember that it has some nice big trees in the bottom.  Of course people started to fall and slide down towards those trees.  That was the end of grooming there.  

 

IMO the truly steep expert runs should stay ungroomed- they are more interested to good skiers that way, and keeping them ungroomed will keep out the "groomer hotshots", people who really should not be in that kind of terrain.  

 

That run is steeper than it looks.  It is solid black diamond terrain.  A fall at the top could definitely result in a slide to the bottom in hard icy conditions.

post #74 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Quote:

 

Well groomers don't demolish the snow, they transform it.

As for the novices on the bananas, demolish may fit if you think one should earn access to powder.

Demolish like locusts?? or how much wood can a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could...and they can't but do?

 

Skis "that let me keep the speed up when it is super deep without burying the tips eating shi* and looking foolish...they are so floaty, so totally rad.."

 

- I Shred the gnar without even having to try...

The Truth About Powder Skis

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skierish View Post

 

Hmmm, are you sure you're not talking about a snowboard?

Dude, you just don't get it......

post #75 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowlmar View Post

When I backcountry ski, I don't go to a resort.  I grab my skins and huff it on up.  So, most of this conversation is a bunch of hot air.  If you want powder and pristine skiing, grab some skins, and huff it.  You're using a parking lot, and you're using lifts to get to the side country.  You're using the facilities and you're buying lift tickets.  The macho talk is simply hilarious.  You'll find plenty of pristine conditions outside the Jackson commercial operation.  Yet, you want a commercial operation to be what it is not - a pristine place, where you have to WORK to huff it up the mountain.  You'll have to do homework as well - you'll need to understand snow.

 

Jackson will continue to evolve into a more accessible commercial operation.  They won't survive running lifts for a bunch of flat broke ski drunks who aren't in good enough shape to huff it up a slope and use their lift tickets as a short cut.  

 

It sure is..

post #76 of 85

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowlmar View Post

When I backcountry ski, I don't go to a resort.  I grab my skins and huff it on up.  So, most of this conversation is a bunch of hot air.  If you want powder and pristine skiing, grab some skins, and huff it.  You're using a parking lot, and you're using lifts to get to the side country.  You're using the facilities and you're buying lift tickets.  The macho talk is simply hilarious.  You'll find plenty of pristine conditions outside the Jackson commercial operation.  Yet, you want a commercial operation to be what it is not - a pristine place, where you have to WORK to huff it up the mountain.  You'll have to do homework as well - you'll need to understand snow.

 

Jackson will continue to evolve into a more accessible commercial operation.  They won't survive running lifts for a bunch of flat broke ski drunks who aren't in good enough shape to huff it up a slope and use their lift tickets as a short cut.  

 

No, it's been one way for decades and now it's another.

Yes, everyone skiing Jackson Hole are broke ski drunks too out of shape to walk up. Nice to hear you're a total beast on the uphill!

At least the drunks at Jackson know where to pee:

JetBlue flier who 'peed' on girl could be axed from US Ski Team - NY Post 8/12/11

Quote:

"I was drunk, and I did not realize I was pissing on her leg," the 6-foot-4, 195-pound Vietze later told cops, according to law-enforcement sources.

 

Meanwhile we have another video:

The Truth About the Backcountry


Edited by Tog - 1/18/13 at 9:04pm
post #77 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowlmar View Post

When I backcountry ski, I don't go to a resort.  I grab my skins and huff it on up.  So, most of this conversation is a bunch of hot air.  If you want powder and pristine skiing, grab some skins, and huff it.  You're using a parking lot, and you're using lifts to get to the side country.  You're using the facilities and you're buying lift tickets.  The macho talk is simply hilarious.  You'll find plenty of pristine conditions outside the Jackson commercial operation.  Yet, you want a commercial operation to be what it is not - a pristine place, where you have to WORK to huff it up the mountain.  You'll have to do homework as well - you'll need to understand snow.

 

Jackson will continue to evolve into a more accessible commercial operation.  They won't survive running lifts for a bunch of flat broke ski drunks who aren't in good enough shape to huff it up a slope and use their lift tickets as a short cut.  

How long have you been waiting to dis JH?  Sounds like you are waiting for an opening. When people come to Tahoe from JH, they are always awesome, (and make big-ass fast turns), so I don't get the hate. Now if they made little choppy cut-n-slash turns like someone from Beaver.....

post #78 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowlmar View Post

...  You're using a parking lot, and you're using lifts to get to the side country...

An awkward reality and awkward word on here, but in the real world very true.

 

It is true that the groomer will probably see some high-speed groomer carnage now, of course. 

 

I've seen some people perfectly happy to eurocarve through an entire week in Jackson, and, while to me it sort of misses the point, they looked like they were having fun and they were buying lift tickets.

post #79 of 85
Thread Starter 

Just thought I'd post another photo from a different perspective.  This is taken from the saddle at the top of the Thunder chair.  They groomed the Cirque again on Wednesday night and this shows a little better view of how much of the Cirque is groomed versus how much isn't.  Double-click on the photo to blow it up a little so you can get a better feel for what's going on:

 

 

 

One little sidenote:  I'm fairly sure that one of three skiers visible in the foreground of this photo is EpicSki's tetonpwdrjunkie.  He and two friends went blasting by me as I was taking this photo.

post #80 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View PostDouble-click on the photo to blow it up a little so you can get a better feel for what's going on:

 

 

 

 

I didn't realize this until just the other day, but you can click on the photo you've uploaded and enlarge it in your actual post by dragging the edge, like I just did quoting it.

post #81 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

How long have you been waiting to dis JH?  Sounds like you are waiting for an opening. When people come to Tahoe from JH, they are always awesome, (and make big-ass fast turns), so I don't get the hate. Now if they made little choppy cut-n-slash turns like someone from Beaver.....

 

Now that is funny...

post #82 of 85

So I was saying earlier in this thread that when the conditions are bad I wish some resorts would actually do more grooming, to kind of reset things before the next storm.  Here's a photo of Alpine Bowl at Alpine Meadows this morning.  This will make next weekend's storm so much more fun... I hope they do the same to much of Wolverine Bowl.

 

*

post #83 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post

So I was saying earlier in this thread that when the conditions are bad I wish some resorts would actually do more grooming, to kind of reset things before the next storm.  Here's a photo of Alpine Bowl at Alpine Meadows this morning.  This will make next weekend's storm so much more fun... I hope they do the same to much of Wolverine Bowl.

 

*

 

Yeah.  See, that just makes the mountain more fun for more people when the snow returns (which I assume it's going to do, some day).

 

Also, JayT... thanks for the suggestion about sizing photos.  icon14.gif  

 

I couldn't make it work by dragging the border but I was able to right-click, go into "Properties" and re-size it.  That makes for a much more impactful photo than the little thumbnails that the system automatically sizes photos at.

post #84 of 85

I've never skied JH but thought they already have significant groomed sections of the mountain off lookers right?   What you are relating is that is the first groomed run off the Tram?  So a couple questions.   Is this new winch groomed run different than other groomed runs at JH, that is any steeper or steep and longer?   Are advanced skiers afraid it will cause lift lines as lower level skiers now have reason to ride the Tram too? 

 

I enjoy skiing steep winch groomed runs a bit especially early in the morning while warming up.  Like to think I can make 2 or 3 turns where others just one.  Certainly some very pleasant ways to play with various turns on such slopes.  

 

My ski area was one of the first to winch cat groom, has 3 to 6 such runs groomed each day and though are well used I would prefer less.   They are not always that pleasant to ski once the loose packed powder a grooming snowcat layed and packed down is skied off to firmer hard to edge slab surfaces beneath.   Something that tends to evolve during drier periods when it hasn't snowed much for awhile especially if there are windy days.   Thus one gets in a few runs while the run is fresh with rills but by midday that tends to get skied off leaving the firm slabs.   At a certain point packed powder  doesn't really adhere to the slab layers so they end up letting such sections remain flat and firm.   And there is entertainment value watching those who ought not be up there occasionally taking a long long slide.

 

As long as a resort only grooms a few such runs in their steep areas NEXT to advanced lifts and leaves other fall lines natural, I have no complaints.  However when they get to the point of mowing down every line in near visual sight of lifts as though moguls are an eyesore, then I must protest.  So fine but there should be a balance.

post #85 of 85

If conditions are poor for a long period of time, then maybe it makes sense, otherwise I'd prefer that they leave it natural.  Whatever they decide, it's still my favorite place to ski!! smile.gif

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