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Beginning or End of an Era at Jackson Hole? - - - You Decide! - Page 2

post #31 of 85

Looks okay to me personally but, that's just me. It reminds me of skiing at Fernie years ago when they had some groomed tracks in they bowls. It gave me a chance to try and learn to ski differant terrain and have the chance to bail out if I got in over my head. I like steeper grommed stuff but prefer the powder if given the choice.

post #32 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post

A couple of the skiers I saw were longtime, everyday burners at JH - people who CAN AND DO ski the most difficult stuff this mountain has to offer.  They were skiing the Cirque groomer.

 

Go figure.

 

It's a new toy...gotta play with it!

post #33 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post

Both times as I was loading my skis for the hike, I had like a dozen skiers go past me to streak down the groomed portion of the Cirque.  NO ONE skied the bumps/junk to the sides of the groomer.  

 

A couple of the skiers I saw were longtime, everyday burners at JH - people who CAN AND DO ski the most difficult stuff this mountain has to offer.  They were skiing the Cirque groomer.

 

Truth? I think ecimmortal is onto something here:
 

"When Expert terrain gets so skied out, and conditions so crappy that even experts don't want to ski it, then why not put a strip of cordorouy in it? ..."

 

I think lots of experts want to be known as hard-core, off-piste guys....but the truth is that there is something very addictive and fun about zooming pristine snow.  It's not "cool" to ski groomers, but I believe lots of folks actually do it when conditions are less than optimal.  I was at Big Sky this past weekend; they had some left-over decent crud on Saturday, but by Sunday, most of the lower bowl was iced-over junk.  Almost every person I saw took one run down the bowl....and then did another couple on the groomer off the side.

post #34 of 85

I won't comment on how this might affect JH as I've only been introduced to the place, can't claim familiarity.  But this reminds me of an abandoned policy at my fave hill, Mary Jane, CO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asp125 View Post

Maybe it will funnel the less experienced down those routes and leave the powder to the folks who can ski it? Instead of having gapers cut long traverses all across the ungroomed snow. OTOH it could be the "Vail-ification" of JH. 

 

Outhouse is a fairly steep bump run, not nearly as wide as The Cirque at JH.  A few years ago they decided to groom half of it 'to offer a steep groomer' which are very rare there.  Now, this is a run with no real escape once you're on it and there are gaudy warning signs to that affect at the entrance.  When it's completely ungroomed these signs seemed to keep most intermediate sliders off the run but when they groomed half it must have seemed much more safe and inviting.  The result was corduroy that was quickly scraped to ice and oddly spaced and shaped bumps.  In this case, grooming a portion made for a much more unpleasant experience for any level skier on the run.

post #35 of 85

Concurrent to this thread’s appearance, I received the new issue of Ski Magazine. (Don’t know why it’s been coming for the last few years. Probably a perquisite that comes with the EpicPass.) There’s a four page spread on Jackson Hole that makes quite the to-do about increased grooming at the resort. A one and a half page photo depicts a man ripping a wide, untouched by human feet, band of corduroy. Coincidence? I think not.

post #36 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpfreaq View Post

The result was corduroy that was quickly scraped to ice and oddly spaced and shaped bumps.

 

In other words, a second 'Sleeper'.   I was at Copper yesterday in brutal cold weather that had the place as empty as I've ever seen it.   For the first time in as long as I can remember, the groomers off the Super Bee were NOT scraped off and actually fun to ski. 

post #37 of 85

If all goes as planned, I'll be in Jackson in late March for a couple of days just prior to the gathering, so I hope to check this our "up close and personal".

 

My perspective is more aligned with those who visit for a week, dig deep for lift tickets and lack Jackson Hole Air Force skills.. Grooming a portion of one run really does not change the entire mountain in any significant way. If it opens some terrain to less skilled, where's the harm, other than to local pride? The regular population still knows all the good stuff and gets to ski in the great conditions. I drool at Bob Peter's out-of-bounds video. It seems logical that management has a long term plan to soften the image to attract more skiers, as, JH will always be a higher priced vacation due to airline and ticket costs.

 

Jackson will always be the last of the old, wild west.....I cherish each visit. 

post #38 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzer View Post

Concurrent to this thread’s appearance, I received the new issue of Ski Magazine. (Don’t know why it’s been coming for the last few years. Probably a perquisite that comes with the EpicPass.) There’s a four page spread on Jackson Hole that makes quite the to-do about increased grooming at the resort. A one and a half page photo depicts a man ripping a wide, untouched by human feet, band of corduroy. Coincidence? I think not.

Noticed that too. 

post #39 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by 929rob View Post

Looks okay to me personally but, that's just me. It reminds me of skiing at Fernie years ago when they had some groomed tracks in they bowls. It gave me a chance to try and learn to ski differant terrain and have the chance to bail out if I got in over my head.

 

That's my general feeling on this sort of thing as well.  Obviously it can be overdone, too...

post #40 of 85

Groomers are for the green runs. 

 

post #41 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abox View Post

 

In other words, a second 'Sleeper'.   I was at Copper yesterday in brutal cold weather that had the place as empty as I've ever seen it.   For the first time in as long as I can remember, the groomers off the Super Bee were NOT scraped off and actually fun to ski. 

 

We've been having the same weather.  Very, very cold in the mornings, gradually "warming" to only very cold.

 

Most of the locals have all but disappeared, waiting for the next storm (whenever that ends up arriving).

 

The bright side has been that for anyone brave - or stupid - enough to come out in the cold, the groomer skiing has been out of this world.  There's almost no one on the hill early in the mornings, the visibility is flawless and the groomers are smooth and consistent with PERFECT edge bite.  I simply wrap myself up in almost all the clothes I own and then scream down the hill on my race skis with first tracks on the fresh "roy".  When I'm sweeping down a run with huge vertical, pool-table-quality grooming, and no one else on the hill top to bottom, I experience a freedom and exhilaration that's pretty hard to match on a mass-frenzy powder day.  YMMV, of course.

 

Just to maintain my coreness, naturally, I've also been hiking to our sidecountry each day to ski a thin layer of cut-up new snow on top of old sun-affected bumps, rockpiles, and traverse tracks.  I do that for the exercise and the discipline but I wouldn't exactly call it fun.

post #42 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by core2 View Post

Groomers are for the green runs. 

 

 

I'm wondering if your tongue is buried firmly in your cheek.

 

That cartoon is amusing but it bears zero resemblance to the actual situation here at Jackson Hole.  On any given powder day, hundreds - perhaps thousands - of locals appear out of thin air to go track up the powder.  They then disappear by about 12:30 on that same day and don't come back again until it snows again.

post #43 of 85

The locals are the 1%.  JH I am sure has a higher % of 1%-ers than most other places if that makes sense.

post #44 of 85

It's kind of hard for me to tell from the pics on my old computer screen with all the vertical lines through it.  What exactly did they do?

Did they create a steep (if they need a winch cat, I'm guessing its over 35 degrees )run that I could treat as an open DH race course?  That to me would be a good thing.

If it's a strip of groomed snow that meanders along so you need to kill speed to follow it or has a vertical profile that precluded high speed (80 mph +) skiing, I would rather they just leave it as is. 

 

Either way it doesn't seem like such a big deal; it looks like there's lots of untouched remaining.....FOR NOW.

 

BTW How steep is it?

post #45 of 85
My comment is that the grooming only enhances the skiing experience in between the powder.
post #46 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Round turns View Post

My comment is that the grooming only enhances the skiing experience in between the powder.

 

"Enhances" is an exceptionally subjective word. Lets use a less subjective phrase- "Makes Easier."  If everybody thought grooming "enhanced" skiing when there wasn't untracked snow, there wouldn't be any controversy here, and you'd see petitions to drop winch cat poles all up and down Highlands Bowl. Let it track up for a few hours, then fire up the cats and make some cord!

post #47 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

I didn't get up there today, but knew the winch point was in and that the traverse at the top had been set up for cats and the entry had been made much easier.  The traverse into The Cirque has at times been very rutted and intimidating, even to some pretty good skiers I have taken there in lessons.  Also the conditions in The Cirque once you got there could be funky with no escape.  I am not sure that I like the grooming, but feel much better about it after looking at the picture.  The placement of the groomed strip looks to be logical and not too excessive.  I think I might like skiing that groomer and I know that my students will enjoy it.  My favorite part of The Cirque is the left side and that looks to be unmolested.  I was very skeptical about the Casper improvements until I saw them and now love the new "all new, all blue" area.  At the very least the new groomer offers our guests another alternative to Rendevous Trail from the top of the Sublette chair.  From my perspective as an instructor, I can now take guests over there without worrying so much about the commitment.  If the skiing get too hard, we can traverse onto the groomer.  In the past  a turn to the right off the top of the Sublette chair could be a long run of pure misery.

I'm glad to read your comment.  I will reserve my thoughts and defer to those of you who live and breathe JH.  Fortunately I will be visiting you this winter and you can show me what all the banter is about.   Then we'll discuss it over an adult beverage.beercheer.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post

IMO, it makes sense to groom expert terrain for only two reasons.

 

1. Avalanche mitigation by removing sketch layers before they become dangerous.

2. To establish a solid base to open terrain earlier/prep work to keep terrain open later in the season.

You forgot, a passage for Ski Patrol when risky rescue is needed. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpfreaq View Post

I won't comment on how this might affect JH as I've only been introduced to the place, can't claim familiarity.  But this reminds me of an abandoned policy at my fave hill, Mary Jane, CO.

 

Outhouse is a fairly steep bump run, not nearly as wide as The Cirque at JH.  A few years ago they decided to groom half of it 'to offer a steep groomer' which are very rare there.  Now, this is a run with no real escape once you're on it and there are gaudy warning signs to that affect at the entrance.  When it's completely ungroomed these signs seemed to keep most intermediate sliders off the run but when they groomed half it must have seemed much more safe and inviting.  The result was corduroy that was quickly scraped to ice and oddly spaced and shaped bumps.  In this case, grooming a portion made for a much more unpleasant experience for any level skier on the run.

Not only gaudy signs but a toboggan too.  They are ready.biggrin.gif

 

post #48 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpfreaq View Post
When it's completely ungroomed these signs seemed to keep most intermediate sliders off the run but when they groomed half it must have seemed much more safe and inviting.  The result was corduroy that was quickly scraped to ice and oddly spaced and shaped bumps.  In this case, grooming a portion made for a much more unpleasant experience for any level skier on the run.

If I read between the lines here I see some snowboarders side scraping the groomed part... of all the steeper runs that they de-bump.  Is is possible that this is done to cater to older less park oriented snowboarders (with older people disposable income) even more than less advanced skiers?th_dunno-1[1].gif

post #49 of 85

Trolling, Bob? A ski area grooms a steep run. A small part of a very wide bowl. So what?

post #50 of 85

Jackson is a business.  It isn't a public open space.  Lifts serve its terrain.  If you wish to skin and ski, you can still skin and ski.  The small amount of piste will lure folks to step off piste.  That's a good thing.

post #51 of 85

Have skiied this area many, many times before grooming.  Can be nirvana, can be a nightmare, dependent on the snow cycle.  When it does suck, a thin section of cord to escape to would be much welcomed.  It is not the end of the world at the Village, just evolution.  Bothers me a lot less than the "ground zero" mess of development at the base area.  

post #52 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post

Trolling, Bob? A ski area grooms a steep run. A small part of a very wide bowl. So what?

Not trolling at all.  The same conversation that's happening here at Epic is happening at Jackson Hole.  Some people are horrified and some think it's great.

 

Personally, I'm not at all bothered by the grooming.  And I actually DO think it will bring in revenue to JHMR.  Maybe not this year, but in ensuing years when people come back (or others come based on recommendations) partly because grooming part of the Cirque gives lesser-skilled riders the option of visiting one of the prettiest, most visually dramatic parts of the mountain.

 

Now, I do draw the line at grooming on the Hobacks.  I even have a sticker on my skis that says "Don't Frack The Hobacks".  I'll help lead the charge if that ever becomes a serious suggestion. eek.gif

post #53 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post

 

Now, I do draw the line at grooming on the Hobacks.  I even have a sticker on my skis that says "Don't Frack The Hobacks".  I'll help lead the charge if that ever becomes a serious suggestion. eek.gif

Bob,

 

I do agree grooming the Hobacks would be a crime. However, as someone who has skied JH many times and think it is probably the BEST ski mountain in the U.S of A., I don't think that grooming a small portion of the cirque is the end of the world. There are many people who lack the skill to ski that area and want to say that they have, and if it makes them happy to ski a groomed portion of it, then so be it.

 

There are times I wish they could groom all of Squaw, right now being one of them, the moguls are horrible mess in certain areas and I find myself cutting out to the groomers at various points. Now will this ever happen, no. I just have to sit around like every other local and pray for the big reset button from above, in the form of snow. 

post #54 of 85

Been skiing JH since I was a pup in 1970.  One year as a bumming experience during college, the rest as The Dreaded Tourist.  Currently get back every year for a week with a bunch of like-minded guys who are all getting a bit older.  So we've got a week.  When the snow is good, and more is falling, we hardly even know what is and isn't groomed.  If it's new and/or soft, we're on the ungroomed (at least until 2 or so)!.  But when the snow is hard and thin, well, we still want to ski for that week, and more grooming is great under those circumstances.

 

Shoot, reaching way back, I can remember at least one year where we made many, many laps on the old Rendezvous Poma, and some of those runs were on a big, fat groomed swath right down the throat of the bowl.  Maybe it's just me, but that bowl seems a lot steeper when groomed!

 

So I guess given how huge the place is, I'm all for some groomed swaths in some of the sacred areas.  Heck, I want to keep coming back until I'm at least 80!

 

And does anybody really want to go back to the days when grooming Rendezvous Trail and the Egg Cartons was done every couple weeks if you were lucky?

post #55 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

If I read between the lines here I see some snowboarders side scraping the groomed part... of all the steeper runs that they de-bump.  Is is possible that this is done to cater to older less park oriented snowboarders (with older people disposable income) even more than less advanced skiers?th_dunno-1%5B1%5D.gif


Outhouse has had warn-off signs on it for as long as I have been skiing WP. I've never fully understood the need- you can see exactly what you are getting into from the top. In my experience, its the runs that are not visible from a lift, start off mild, and then get nasty once the person is committed that cause problems. Defiance at Sunlight is like this. Its the toughest single-black on the mountain, yet is entered off of a green run, and the beginning lots very mild until it drops off the bench. As a kid, I remember taking youth-group trips up to Sunlight- nearly every day, a just graduated form the bunny-hill teenager in our group would be stuck up there.

 

Grooming Outhouse is lame.

post #56 of 85

I would not be too concerned unless you find groomed OB runs, then I might get a little worried. ;-)

 

Sometime back in the '90s I showed up with my 210 GS boards, made one run off the tram and headed down to rent some slalom slashers, and was off to the trees.

 

Sometimes you just need a bit of buff, in this case, and I have done that traverse, what can it hurt?

 

Case in point, Sugarbush every once in a while grooms one or two of its Castlerock runs, of course these are trails, but it is a real kick to be there when it happens.

 

Still the same old Castlerock when it bumps back up.

post #57 of 85

There are always the Hobacks.

post #58 of 85

I can see why people wouldn't want any grooming there at all but when it's refrozen crud that goes mostly unused for days when it hasn't snowed then why not one swath? If it became such common practice that they groom over fresh snow, that would be unforgivable.

 

I don't understand some people's concern though about it ruining the "natural state" of the mountain. That isn't really a valid argument. The side of a mountain that has been skied and chopped up by thousands of skiers is far from a natural state. A natural state would be untracked fresh snow, enough that it fills in all evidence of previous skiers.

post #59 of 85

I can see the objection to grooming out a section on a powder day, but the groomer will be most welcome when it's been a week since the last snowfall and the mountain has been in a freeze/thaw cycle.

post #60 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattL View Post

I can see why people wouldn't want any grooming there at all but when it's refrozen crud that goes mostly unused for days when it hasn't snowed then why not one swath? If it became such common practice that they groom over fresh snow, that would be unforgivable....

 

Ok, I would agree with this as well, as many areas had trouble last season, just having reasonable terrain for much of the season... Consideration for overall conditions is an important part of managing these parts of a mtn.

 

My reaction was greatly influenced by the "once a groomer, always a groomer" policy which has certainly taken hold on Mammoth. And after my visit to Lk Louise/Sunshine last year, my ONLY disappointment was the immediate grooming of fresh snow on what would have been some great intro terrain for good skiers working on their POW skills... just another manifestation of the 'once-always' mtn mgmt policy. In contrast, my visit to Kicking Horse showed grooming but with much left to the natural condition. And even areas which got a bit baked, and could easily have been groomed, were left to their natural state - speaks volumes on what the Mtn wants to be.  BTW, KH jumped quickly towards the top of my list - a slice of heaven not to be missed!

 

Bob, hope you do report the ongoing process on this as the season continues...

I'm heading to The Bird/Alta this season, after quite some yrs away, and have great fears that 'groomification' has altered that landscape as well...frown.gif

...Although I do remember getting my butt kicked at the end of the day, by those lower mtn bump runs, after toasting the legs all day on the upper mtn... maybe a groomer or 2 on the lower hill might not be so bad...  redface.gif

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