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Unbelievable (bad) Avalanche Rescue Tahoe - Page 4

post #91 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramboh View Post

although the gloves still get me when I watch it, wtf

I've read a lot on this incident, and it is amazing the amount of people hammering the guy over his gloves.

Of everything in the video, the gloves are the easiest thing to forgive.

After getting out of the Army, I went on to become a SCUBA instructor and then a commercial diver. One of the first things we were taught is that a primal sign of severe stress is removing equipment. In fact, in enclosed space diving accidents, it is not unusual to recover the victim’s body and find him completely naked, where he has removed all his gear and wetsuit.

In fact, this is such a good indicator of stress, that we are taught to assess the general mental condition of our group by watching for people fiddling with their gear.

Have you ever been in a group waiting to go, and had a member or two holding everybody up because they were messing around with their helmet and goggles, trying to adjust their pole straps, etc? It's because they were under a high level of stress and is a sign somebody needs to intervene, not tell them to hurry the hell up.

The guy in the video was so stressed out from the event he was shucking gear, (his gloves, watch him throw away his shovel) and was still able to function as wall as he did. That shows a tremendous amount of mental strength and should be applauded.
post #92 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by sofort99 View Post


I've read a lot on this incident, and it is amazing the amount of people hammering the guy over his gloves.
Of everything in the video, the gloves are the easiest thing to forgive.
After getting out of the Army, I went on to become a SCUBA instructor and then a commercial diver. One of the first things we were taught is that a primal sign of severe stress is removing equipment. In fact, in enclosed space diving accidents, it is not unusual to recover the victim’s body and find him completely naked, where he has removed all his gear and wetsuit.
In fact, this is such a good indicator of stress, that we are taught to assess the general mental condition of our group by watching for people fiddling with their gear.
Have you ever been in a group waiting to go, and had a member or two holding everybody up because they were messing around with their helmet and goggles, trying to adjust their pole straps, etc? It's because they were under a high level of stress and is a sign somebody needs to intervene, not tell them to hurry the hell up.
The guy in the video was so stressed out from the event he was shucking gear, (his gloves, watch him throw away his shovel) and was still able to function as wall as he did. That shows a tremendous amount of mental strength and should be applauded.

Hmm that's weird. Do you have links on this? I think back to stressfull environements I have been in and it correlates. I'm intetrested as to why though.

post #93 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by sofort99 View Post


I've read a lot on this incident, and it is amazing the amount of people hammering the guy over his gloves.
Of everything in the video, the gloves are the easiest thing to forgive.
After getting out of the Army, I went on to become a SCUBA instructor and then a commercial diver. One of the first things we were taught is that a primal sign of severe stress is removing equipment. In fact, in enclosed space diving accidents, it is not unusual to recover the victim’s body and find him completely naked, where he has removed all his gear and wetsuit.
In fact, this is such a good indicator of stress, that we are taught to assess the general mental condition of our group by watching for people fiddling with their gear.
Have you ever been in a group waiting to go, and had a member or two holding everybody up because they were messing around with their helmet and goggles, trying to adjust their pole straps, etc? It's because they were under a high level of stress and is a sign somebody needs to intervene, not tell them to hurry the hell up.
The guy in the video was so stressed out from the event he was shucking gear, (his gloves, watch him throw away his shovel) and was still able to function as wall as he did. That shows a tremendous amount of mental strength and should be applauded.

 

I hope none of you use "severe stress" as an excuse for being caught streaking across campus...

post #94 of 99

good reminder for everyone out there, glad they posted. Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement. Hopefully others can learn from them rather than learning the hard way.

post #95 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf210 View Post

Hmm that's weird. Do you have links on this? I think back to stressfull environements I have been in and it correlates. I'm intetrested as to why though.

I don't have any links for it, but you should be able to do a google search and find out all you want to know.

I'd start with a search for "stress induced automatic behavior", and "Automatism".

Oh, and you could search dive related sites for "equipment rejection".
post #96 of 99
post #97 of 99
The one common thread in many of the avi disasters is that they all seem to start with ONE bad decision from either an individual or a group and at the outset of the journey. Happened here and also happened in the NY Tmes article on the tragedy at Steven's Pass.

I think avi instruction should start and end with getting people REALLY trained to make decisions around a "go or no go" decision and being able to call an avi hotline that has a human on the other side of the phone vs a daily avi warning and who may say "you'd be crazy for going out there today", vs leaving it to the discretion of some guy who's leading you and others out there and who may in fact have a screw loose or a death wish. The gloves and the beacon stuff pails in comparison to sound judgement when in the backcountry.

I respect the leader who took on all the blame as he should have, but where were those leadership like qualities at the start of the decision making process. He says word to the effect of "we let emotion get in the way", but a good leader has the safety of the group first and foremost in his head, not get emotional which will get you killed.
post #98 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by swisstrader View Post

The one common thread in many of the avi disasters is that they all seem to start with ONE bad decision from either an individual or a group and at the outset of the journey. Happened here and also happened in the NY Tmes article on the tragedy at Steven's Pass.

I think avi instruction should start and end with getting people REALLY trained to make decisions around a "go or no go" decision and being able to call an avi hotline that has a human on the other side of the phone vs a daily avi warning and who may say "you'd be crazy for going out there today", vs leaving it to the discretion of some guy who's leading you and others out there and who may in fact have a screw loose or a death wish. The gloves and the beacon stuff pails in comparison to sound judgement when in the backcountry.

I respect the leader who took on all the blame as he should have, but where were those leadership like qualities at the start of the decision making process. He says word to the effect of "we let emotion get in the way", but a good leader has the safety of the group first and foremost in his head, not get emotional which will get you killed.

 

I agree with your point, but we can't really have a system where someone else (especially over the phone/internet) makes the decision/advises you on your plan specifically. First of all there is the liability issue, and second, while I agree that go/no-go is critical, even more important is observation and decision making in the field. If people are told "go" they will discount risk/changing conditions in the field and assume safety.

 

We've had a good winter so far here in BC, only 1 avalanche death (still too many), hope it continues. We have had pretty stable conditions in a lot of the province for most of the winter as well.

post #99 of 99

I've snowboarded a little back country in BC about 10 years ago...The first thing I thought of when I saw the video was "why isn't this guy using his own beacon?". Going out there without everybody properly equipped was their first epic fail.

 

As far as the rescue is concerned, the "leader" did remain really calm and should be applauded. The last thing you want to do in that kind of situation is panic. I think he was telling that girl to take her time because he was going over in his head what he needed to do. It is much better to take a moment to gather yourself, formulate a plan, and take action rather than rushing in and risk further disaster.

 

Another armchair quarterback observation...once a proper airway was established (the victim was shouting that he was OK), that is the time to step back and figure out exactly what you are going to do to get your buddy out. Take the time to properly assemble your shovel!! Tell people what you need them to do, there is no point in trying to dig someone out by yourself.

 

Hind site is always 20/20, it was the lack of preparation that failed this group.

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