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Cold, squashed toes in Fischer Vacuum - Page 6

post #151 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by raytseng View Post
 

Congrats.   Hmm, my instructions were to always leave them buckled but in their formed shape (i.e. feather touch to close).  It probably won't matter too much either way, as long as you're not yanking on the tongue and stretching the shell .

 

Yep. I figure a boot won't unwrap in one day. Looking forward to putting them on tonight. :)

post #152 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post
 

 

Yep. I figure a boot won't unwrap in one day. Looking forward to putting them on tonight. :)

also check all the bolts and fasteners to see that they're snug.  My guy mentioned that as well.  And said to use the (temporary) loctite if they were chronically lose.

post #153 of 179

Unlike the earlier vac boots, the fasteners on boots from the last couple years have reusable thread locking compound on them. Similar to Vibra-tite VC3.

 

The fasteners on the ealier vac boots have a tendency to loosen during the molding process. Not a good thing.

post #154 of 179

Tried the boots on. Both my wife and I marvel at how good they feel- like wearing snow boots. Far comfier to be clicked into than any boot I've worn.

 

The only potential issue is at the 2nd buckle from the bottom on my left book. It feels tighter there than on the other boot and is the only thing I feel. However, I bet when my feet are smaller from the cold it will be fine, and it not, I can get it fixed. 

 

These things are cool. 

post #155 of 179

Good to hear, but also set your expectations appropriately that there still is a possibility of the usual new boot breakin for the liner and other quirks so first day on the slopes still may result in a cramp or fallen alseep foot or whatever weirdness that still needs to work through.  

 

If it goes perfectly though, great!

post #156 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post
However, I bet when my feet are smaller from the cold it will be fine

Uh, FWIW, probably not much, our bodies don't shrink in the cold. Unless they get so cold the blood cannot flow to the extremities; this is usually followed by cold damage, then frostbite, then an excellent gangrene adventure. Otherwise, your core blood wants to go visit your extremities every 20 min or so, this is called the "hunting reflex." Evolutionary compromise between dangers from hypothermia and dangers from frostbite. It'll keep you normally sized.

 

Or you want to try something like -100, and very low humidity (think Antarctica) when skin in contact with the air has its moisture content wicked out, so it shrinks as it freezes solid. Again, followed by an excellent gangrene adventure. Our fingers and toes, if we're lucky, and keep them frozen, mummify and fall off on their own, little black icicles. Otherwise, systemic septicemia and out. 

 

Our bodies do expand when they're very hot, from blood being shunted to the surface to remove core heat, or from exercise, from core blood being shunted to the skeletal muscles for more O2. Or from both, obviously. So since feet have muscles too, and we're supposed to use them to initiate turns and balance, if we ski with any exertion, and our boots fit, our feet should actually get a touch larger. 

 

Our lower extremities can swell if we have circulatory problems, say diabetes or hypertension, and remain relatively stationary, say standing or sitting. Or are comparatively normal but just sit for a long time, like in an airplane. In the cold, if you have circulatory problems or serious diabetes, well, good luck on that. There are better sports, honestly. 

 

And finally, feet get larger with weight gain - feet also store fat - and can get wider from carrying excess weight, such as during pregnancy. Arch splays out a bit, plantar fascia and other bits stretch. Most women who have had a few children report an shoe size increase of one to two sizes, really about width, not length, even if they fight back toward pre pregnancy weights.

 

I know you were all dying to know this...;) 

post #157 of 179

My feet are always smaller after lunch

post #158 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 

My feet are always smaller after lunch


Mine too.  

post #159 of 179

Increased circulation removing any swelling, is my guess.

post #160 of 179
Quote:

Originally Posted by beyond View Post

 

Uh, FWIW, probably not much, our bodies don't shrink in the cold.

 

 It'll keep you normally sized.

 

 

 

Are we talking about the same body parts? :D

post #161 of 179

*shrug*. I've always found my boots to fit tightest when I am wearing them at home. 

 

In any case, I'll see how they do on the snow. 

post #162 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingGrump View Post
 

 

Are we talking about the same body parts? :D


Well played. 

post #163 of 179

Blister has a pretty detailed review of the Fischer RC4 130 boot for 2015-16.  It also compares the Fischer 130 to some other brands/models prospective buyers may want to think about.

 

http://blistergearreview.com/gear-reviews/2015-2016-fischer-rc4-130-vacuum

post #164 of 179

Are the Vacuums still all built with Fischer abducted stance…..the SOMA stance? 

post #165 of 179

They are. But honestly I don't really see it. If anything I am a bit pigeon toed, but I find the fischer's track better than other boots for me. I don't think its the soma, I think its canting. But my point is, I don't see it being a problem for most people. I also think that if you are really pigeon toed, you put all the padding on the inside of the big toe and vac at high pressure. Without a doubt, you could shift the stance at least 4-5mm inward.

 

EDIT: Maybe not that much, because the instep and arch might limit you. But you could definitely negate the Soma some I would think.

post #166 of 179

I was just curious. I assumed that they were all SOMA's. Not an issue, in a negative way, for 99.9% of the people skiing in them, and I'd imagine a significant plus for some. I have no direct experience with the vacuum boots, and like others have heard a lot of stories. Some very much "Pro", and some "Con". Stories from skiers, shop owners, and fitters. Consensus is that they keep getting better in design, and materials….and probably in the execution of fitting them. But I have never heard a noncompetitive skier have anything but good to say about the stance. Heck, I'd love to try them, but I'm happy with my set-up.

 

Back in the day when they first introduced the SOMA {at the same time that Nordica rolled our some abducted stance Dobermann's…..maybe 2006-ish?}, they had real issues with their race boots, and comp'd athletes. That's the one niche where a straight last boot matters. The SOMA feels great, and feels wonderful even for those guys to free ski. But it timed real slow. Today, every high level Fischer athlete is in a straight last boot, a traditional plug, which they do not sell to the general public {unless that's changed}. Nordica was less forceful in trying to push the duck foot boot on their racers. Nobody has raced at the WC level, or close in anything but the straight last boot, to my knowledge. But, their needs are entirely different, and don't translate to our skiing. Fischer trying to push the SOMA on pretty high level racers in North America was a mess for a season or two. I felt badly for the North American race reps who really were handcuffed. Our son was in the Dobermann, and never raced in the abducted stance boot. Thought it felt great free skiing, though. He had friends who had a lot to work through with Fischer. That was a LONG time ago. 

 

The Blister guys sure love the boot! And it looks great. 

post #167 of 179

After day 1 of skiing these, my wife and I are definitely in the game changer camp.

 

After the first run, my wife said she thought they were molded wrong because the stance felt off- but looking at her stance, I saw much less A frame than, well, ever.

 

3 turns into the second run, I watch her bite into a turn with more edge angle than I've ever seen, followed with a near perfect railroad-track transition into the same high edge angle turn the other way, all the way down. At the bottom she was crying- because she has been trying to accomplish skiing like that for years and years of lessons and effort, and could never get it to work. Indeed, the whole day, through all types of variable terrain, it was like watching somebody go from intermediate to a really well put together, fluid skier in a heartbeat. 

 

For me, I skied all day without unbuckling the boots- on the first day. The tightness around the second buckle was there, but it didn't progress to anything more than minor discomfort, and by the afternoon it felt like it had packed in and didn't feel tight. 

 

I also discovered I have alignment issues. They weren't as severe as my wife, so they never got identified. Skiing the Fishers, I quickly found that I could drive the ski with my big toe and the inside of my foot, while during my entire life skiing to this point I have had to pressure the outside of my foot to get a flat ski- and my feet have always hurt and have commonly cramped in the arch and along the outside edge. I've never had a comfy boot because I've never been able to use the intended part of my foot to drive the ski, or so it seems.

 

Notable is that my alignment issue was corrected by the molding process with zero special attention- automatic to the process. For my wife, who our bootfitter stated was further off than most people (save for himself), he merely adjusted her stance when she got into the machine and made sure she held it there. No shims, no grinding, just making sure she stood right.

 

As for cold and squashed toes, No.

 

Totally amazing. In my eyes, my experience today was about as mind blowing as the first powder day where everything clicked. 

post #168 of 179

I am happy everything worked out fantastic for you guys. Thumbs Up

post #169 of 179

After two days, my wife is finding her big toe is up against the shell, so our bootfitter is going to punch a few MM out in the toe.

 

While doing the paperwork, I noticed this boot with a wild amount of cuff alignment correction. Turns out they are the bootfitter's personal boot and are exhibit A in why he's so sold on the Fishers. 

 

post #170 of 179

The lower shell is not exactly in stock configuration.  

post #171 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingGrump View Post
 

The lower shell is not exactly in stock configuration.  

 

Ya think?

 

post #172 of 179

I love mine. Best fit i've ever had. Yet they still don't fit snugly enough on my instep. I have an outlier foot with a very, very low instep and small ankle. I'm two sizes smaller than my street shoes and my toes have just enough room after vacuum forming. Just barely. I feel the pressure on all sides of my toes, but I can ski all day and not experience pain, numbness or discomfort. There is absolutely no chance of downsizing, even if I had all the money in the world.

 

In past, I've worn cabrio style boots and put neoprene on the inside of the tongue. That wouldn't work with an overlap, but perhaps it would work to put it in the same place, but on the liner? That way when I cinch down the straps the inside of the tongue overlaps would contact the neoprene and apply gentle pressure in the instep. If they didn't mangle the neoprene as they are torqued laterally into place. 

 

I am imagining baking them again and putting some kind of strap around the instep that could be tightened to draw the instep back. I haven't discussed with my bootfitter yet. Any thoughts on how to get the instep snugger?

post #173 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by afterburn View Post
 

I love mine. Best fit i've ever had. Yet they still don't fit snugly enough on my instep. I have an outlier foot with a very, very low instep and small ankle. I'm two sizes smaller than my street shoes and my toes have just enough room after vacuum forming. Just barely. I feel the pressure on all sides of my toes, but I can ski all day and not experience pain, numbness or discomfort. There is absolutely no chance of downsizing, even if I had all the money in the world.

 

In past, I've worn cabrio style boots and put neoprene on the inside of the tongue. That wouldn't work with an overlap, but perhaps it would work to put it in the same place, but on the liner? That way when I cinch down the straps the inside of the tongue overlaps would contact the neoprene and apply gentle pressure in the instep. If they didn't mangle the neoprene as they are torqued laterally into place. 

 

I am imagining baking them again and putting some kind of strap around the instep that could be tightened to draw the instep back. I haven't discussed with my bootfitter yet. Any thoughts on how to get the instep snugger?

 

I have the same issue with my right foot and only my right foot. After the initial molding the instep was way too loose, so we did a remold. First step is to lace up the liner really tight. During the molding process, a pad was placed between the ice pack & the shell at the instep. That seems to work pretty well.  

post #174 of 179

I went to see my bootfitter. He said he could do that (what KingGrump suggested), but he is worried that my ankle is so low volume that if he did it, two things might happen. One, the forward lean might be more than I want (might not be able to have both simultaneously) and two, it might effect the flex (make it softer). So, instead, he put a little bit of neoprene inside the tongue right at the instep. He has this really nice stuff that is slick on one side, so doesn't effect the ease of putting on. He put a thick piece (maybe 4mm?) right at the instep and then put a very thin piece over most of the tongue so that I don't catch the edge of it with my toes when putting it on. Very slick installation looks OEM other than the color (blue, whereas rest of liner is red/black). 

 

Wow! Honestly, even before this final tweak, putting these boots on made me a better skier. Part of that is that this is my first pair of 130 flex boots (no regrets there). But most of it is the fit. Especially the canting. The thermofit gave me the first natural base flat on the right side I've ever had. Ordinary boots' canting adjustments were never quite enough for my right leg. 

 

A big shout out to Brent at Blue Zone Sports in Truckee. He is a super nice guy and a great bootfitter. My wife has a pair of Trinity Vacuums. He ground the back of the shell down to the booster strap so that she wasn't burning out her quads when standing around or walking in them, and built up the arch to support her very high arches. She may eventually go with custom footbeds, but this was a great interim step to make her comfortable.

post #175 of 179

Another positive experience with the Vacuum.... I have short feet with a narrowish heal.... wide forefoot .... and average instep... the boot was the most comfortable ski boot ever.  My forefoot sits perfectly flat and my toes are not squashed at all.  Despite the comfort (not supposed to be there it's a ski boot)... I've never had so much sensitivity at the foot level before.  Pressure control and edging just got that much easier for me.  I should also add that I put my zipfit liners in the boot.  My bootfitter also skis this setup and loves it.

post #176 of 179
Are these the 2014 model? If so, the liners are really tight and will not stretch out if the shell is not stretched out and vice versa. To remedy this, re-bake the liner and make sure that you have ample pads and toe caps on your feet under your socks. Next, put the liner in the shell and really crank the buckles down for at least 20 minutes (this will be very uncomfortable, but wort it in the end. Next, it will need to be remolded. If you have a high arch and wide feet, I would recommend using hardly any pressure in the front zone (I had the front zone set to zero on my second mould and now the fit great and my feet are warm). Good luck!
post #177 of 179

To resurface this thread - I also think the new stock partly Ultralon liner is rubbish in the toebox (my liner is 14/15 model - not sure if they changed something for the later Ultralon liners but I don't think so). I've got pretty wide toes - and with my feet in the liners alone they would get a bit squashed. Even just putting the lines/boots on in house - my toes would go cold within 10-15min.

I'm not really downsized using a 26.5 with a 26.3-26.6mm long  and wider left foot (about 98mm wide - at small toe/little behind) - and 26.7-27.1mm 96mm wide right foot.

 

There are several problems for me - my heel already does not go to the very back of the liner with the heel (but about 3cm above the heel) - and I have a small instep so tend to slide a bit forward in any non plug boot. Vacuum molding cannot fully remedy this (even though I had 2 of the Fischer toecaps fitted and liner heated before as well - and already broken in. Vaccum molding with 400mbar at the back, and 150 at the front.

 

I ended up cutting the liner open in the front from big toe to small toe - and cutting out the inner layer of it alongside the full frontline (into a tiny bit that is above the toe). I then still needed a tiny bit of punch out for my right toe for length - but the boot fits quite well now (would not need that with the lace up Fischer liner).

 

I also have a non vacuum RC4 Pro 130 for days to charge - and that took like 7-8 hours of shell fitting (and still is not very comfortable for a full day of skiing - main problem is that my ankle is pretty wide and even ground down as far as possible plus stretched out a bit there my inner ankle starts to hurt). The vacuum 130 (actually Ranger but that is identical shell to the RC4 130 non Pro) is clearly warmer as it's higher volume. BTW - the RC4 Pro got a really good lace up liner - however that does not fit well in the heel area into the non Pro Vaccum. I did use it a couple of times though too. As ironic fact - using the 26.5 lace up race liner I could probabely even downfit to 25.5 RC4 Vacuum shell with some punching for the toes. The lace up liner does manage to suck my heel right to the back and of course no cutting of the liner needed or whatsoever.

 

(cutting away some material of the liner in the front makes my toes warm all day - if there is no air flowing in/out the insulation of the shell is plenty enough even for cold days. On the RC4 Pro however I need to use neoprene boot covers to make it through cold (-15° C. or colder) full days without my feet freezing. And yes - the old non vaccum RC4 Pro feels like 100 points stiffer than the vacuum non Pro RC4.

 

 

They really should have made the liner full ultralon everywhere except a thin neoprene only toearea front (ultralon does compress great - but not really stretch that well). Another solution would be to vacuum mold the boot with stock liner - then afterwards use a good old foam injection liner. In general I really like how the Fischer boots ski - but the non race models are simply really let down by their liners. (the RC4 Pro Vaccuum is for me just too hard and cold for leisure all day skiing (guessing they behave like the old non Vacuum Pros except a bit softer). I like the softness of the 130 non Pros).

post #178 of 179
Fischer keeps working on its non-race Vacuum liners and they have improved. I have both the first season and last season's RC4 130 98mm shells. (each are set with different degrees of foward lean.) That said, early on I replaced both liners with Intuition liners which for me are more roomy in the toe box and warmer to boot.tongue.gif I know others who are quite happy with last season's stock liners.

I suspect that the Fischer Vacuum boot line tends to attract a number of skiers with some special fitting challenges much the way Daleboot and Strolz do. With a competent bootfitter The Fischer Vacuum shell has proven a winner for many.
Corty Lawrence at Footloose Sports in Mammoth did mine.

Fischer may yet have a ways to go with its Vacuum liners to appeal to a broader boot buying segment. Then again, what major ski brand doesn't boast either improved liners, buckles or both each season in the " latest and greatest" gear guides.
post #179 of 179

Yep - and especially with liners - there is usualy no improvement at all. Ultralon or handsewn leather lines with foam injection are still clearly the best and more or less the same as 15 years ago. Actually foam injection liners got worse due to the FCKW prohibition. Before some racers I know used their foam injection liners 1000 days - or more or less 5-6 years if they did not switch the model of the shell. Now also foam injection liners don't make it much more than 300-400 days till the foam breaks down.

 

But yes - the vacuum shell is really nice. Much less work for custom fitting needed. With non Vacuum RC4 shells - it would mean 3-4 hours work on the shell alone if I don't want to upsize. Now shell just needs some toeroom punching and that's it. No more tedious work around my ankles and midfoot. And actually no brand got good quality liners (except Intuition models) on their non laceup liners. Fischer used to sell the RC4 non Pro also as a 140 with a special laced liner. Since last year I think it just got the rubbish non laced liner - so no more reason to buy the 140 anymore (I think the shell is identical to the 130 anyhow).

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