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If upright boots are all the rage, why can't I buy a turn?

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 

Recently switched from Kryptons to Rossi Experience Sensor 130LV boots with a Booster strap.  A couple of trips to my bootfitter and they tight, but comfortable. They have been canted 1deg/1.5deg and have had the cuffs aligned to my screwed up legs.  I'm on Instaprint footbeds and have less than a 15mm shell fit. (trying to cover all the initial questions). Down sized from 28.5 to 27.5.

 

So why do I have such a hard time engaging the edges in this new upright boot? Feels like my edges want to wander rather than bite in. Both days were manmade stellar conditions at Hunter Mtn.

 

Not a lot of adjustments to play with on these boots, but they felt best with a slight heel lift with the rear spoiler in place. Not sure if it's a fore/aft alignment thing or I just need to get used to these. When I tried skiing without the spoiler and lift, my quads burned.

 

If it matters, Day one was on my goto EC ski. MX78's with Dynastar PX12 bindings. Yesterday I also tried a pair of LX92's with Solly STH 12 bindings.

post #2 of 13

Which forward lean wedge did you have in your Kryptons?

post #3 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot View Post

Which forward lean wedge did you have in your Kryptons?

 

The smaller one.

post #4 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by RatherPlayThanWork View Post

Recently switched from Kryptons to Rossi Experience Sensor 130LV boots with a Booster strap.  A couple of trips to my bootfitter and they tight, but comfortable. They have been canted 1deg/1.5deg and have had the cuffs aligned to my screwed up legs.  I'm on Instaprint footbeds and have less than a 15mm shell fit. (trying to cover all the initial questions). Down sized from 28.5 to 27.5.

 

So why do I have such a hard time engaging the edges in this new upright boot? Feels like my edges want to wander rather than bite in. Both days were manmade stellar conditions at Hunter Mtn.

 

Not a lot of adjustments to play with on these boots, but they felt best with a slight heel lift with the rear spoiler in place. Not sure if it's a fore/aft alignment thing or I just need to get used to these. When I tried skiing without the spoiler and lift, my quads burned.

 

If it matters, Day one was on my goto EC ski. MX78's with Dynastar PX12 bindings. Yesterday I also tried a pair of LX92's with Solly STH 12 bindings.


Did you get set up by a pro bootfitter who got you completely neutral in the boot? That is always key for me on a new boot: that and taking a couple of days to get used to it.  I skied my Head Raptor 130 without being neutralized in the boot: it wasn't way off, but felt like it.  I was probably about 5mm forward (hanging on the cuff) and also just hanging on the inside cuff as well.  45 minutes of alignment work to get me neutral fore/aft and side to side, and a new footbed, and I feel as dialed as I ever have in a boot.

 

If you have had the alignment work done, then I don't know: maybe the forward lean/ramp angle is a poor combo for your anatomy.  I know with my long tib/fib and average femur length (for someone 5 foot 9), the more upright Head and Lange boots work well for me.

post #5 of 13

The small wedge is supposed to be 15 degrees. I don't know what your Rossi's are rated, but the forward lean numbers are about at useless as flex numbers when compared between brands.  Many of the new boots are claiming sub 15-degree lean.  After years of skiing my Krypts with the big wedges (17 degrees) I decided to "modernize" my skiing and switched to the small one reducing my forward lean by 2 degrees.  This felt like a huge change and required about 15 hours of skiing to really get comfortable with it, and a modification of the way I had been skiing for most of my life.   It took a lot of time to make them work in the bumps.  Even though I finally made them work at an "acceptable level," and I felt like I was using less leg muscle to ski, I eventually abandoned it because I did not like the loose connection to the front of my boots with the upright stance.  A more upright stance allows you to use more skeleton and less muscle, but may not be the best position for skiing variable conditions and terrain.

 

The progressive flex of the Krypts facilitates a weight forward more hang on the front of the boot neutral position that I love, and I believe can only be achieved with a 3-piece shell boot.  Regular 2-piece shell boots do not have a progressive flex so they have an on/off feel that is hard to get used to when coming from Kryptons, and I believe this is exaggerated by a more upright stance.  I suggest experimenting with loosening the top buckle and tightening the Booster Strap to allow you to hang a little more into the boot with your stance and soften the hair trigger effect of leaning into the boots.  I cannot over emphasize the difference in feel between the Kryptons and regular 2-piece shell boots, and it takes time to transition.  You actually ski them differently with the Krypts using more knee action going forward as opposed to the Rossis skiing like most boots and initiating by hinging more with your ankles.

 

Ramp angle and several other factors can effect the situation, but after years of messing with differenct boots and forward lean I have come to the conclusion that your body type and natural style dictates a certain optimum forward lean.  You can learn to ski any boot, but buying one without adjustable forward lean may trap you into needing to adopt a new style.

 

I am not a boot fitting expert and have probably not provided any answers for you, but hopefully it is some usable food for thought that will help you dial in your new boots. The heel lifts actually make you sit back more, which would make it more difficult to engage the front of your boots, and the spoilers help support you back there, so without them your quads would burn, but those do not sound like "healthy" adjustments.  You probably need to see a good boot fitter, or just keep skiing the new boots until it becomes more natural.

post #6 of 13

Disclaimer - this idea is probably way off base but I thought I throw it out anyway.  Maybe it's not a 'fore/aft forward lean angle' thing. Your new boots are now perfectly flat, neutral after canting and cuff alignment. Are you pronated? Were your old Kryptons also canted as well as cuff aligned?  If not and if you are pronated it might mean you were slightly angulating your inside edge in the old boots making the skis very quick to engage but now your skis are perfectly flat and that takes more movement to roll onto the edge.

post #7 of 13

You also need to take into account your ski/plate/binding combo in the fore/aft quotient.

 

Did the boot guy do your fore/aft analysis with you clicked into your bindings?  How much ramp in the ski/plate/binding combo?

 

Keep in mind, canting is more art than science. 

 

Did you experiment with different amounts of cant by tape canting before going full tilt permanent?

 

Last time I had canting work done, we made it reversible. And fortunately so. I could not get an edge on my right ski once the canting was done. this is becuse i am twisted (my right foot) & canting cannot fix a twisted discrepancy.

post #8 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Castle Dave View Post

Disclaimer - this idea is probably way off base but I thought I throw it out anyway.  Maybe it's not a 'fore/aft forward lean angle' thing. Your new boots are now perfectly flat, neutral after canting and cuff alignment. Are you pronated? Were your old Kryptons also canted as well as cuff aligned?  If not and if you are pronated it might mean you were slightly angulating your inside edge in the old boots making the skis very quick to engage but now your skis are perfectly flat and that takes more movement to roll onto the edge.

This was my first thought as well; downhill foot pronating so the ski is too flat to the hill. The smoking gun would be a downhill ski that edges poorly while the uphill ski edges too hard.

post #9 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by tech_joshua View Post

This was my first thought as well; downhill foot pronating so the ski is too flat to the hill. The smoking gun would be a downhill ski that edges poorly while the uphill ski edges too hard.

 

Actually I believe it works the other way. Pronated = knockkneed so downhill knee/foot is edged into the hill and consequently edging the ski into the hill while the uphill ski does not edge.

You are describing what happens when supinated = bowlegged. Which cant correction did you receive? For knockkneed or bowlegged? My bet would be your pronation was corrected on the new boots but not entirely corrected on your old boots so the downhill ski edge was slightly engaged all the time on your old boots. Easy edge engagement but not the most stable.

post #10 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgcatching View Post


Did you get set up by a pro bootfitter who got you completely neutral in the boot? That is always key for me on a new boot: that and taking a couple of days to get used to it.  I skied my

I was set up by a pro bootfitter, but no work on being "neutral" in the boot. Curious what was done for this.  If as mentioned below, bindings can affect this, how can you be neutral on every ski you use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot View Post

The small wedge is supposed to be 15 degrees. I don't know what your Rossi's are rated, but the forward lean numbers are about at useless as flex numbers when compared between brands.  Many of the new boots are claiming sub 15-degree lean.  After years of skiing my Krypts with the big wedges (17 degrees) I decided to "modernize" my skiing and switched to the small one reducing my forward lean by 2 degrees.  This felt like a huge change and required about 15 hours of skiing to really get comfortable with it, and a modification of the way I had been skiing for most of my life.   It took a lot of time to make them work in the bumps.  Even though I finally made them work at an "acceptable level," and I felt like I was using less leg muscle to ski, I eventually abandoned it because I did not like the loose connection to the front of my boots with the upright stance.  A more upright stance allows you to use more skeleton and less muscle, but may not be the best position for skiing variable conditions and terrain.

 

The progressive flex of the Krypts facilitates a weight forward more hang on the front of the boot neutral position that I love, and I believe can only be achieved with a 3-piece shell boot.  Regular 2-piece shell boots do not have a progressive flex so they have an on/off feel that is hard to get used to when coming from Kryptons, and I believe this is exaggerated by a more upright stance.  I suggest experimenting with loosening the top buckle and tightening the Booster Strap to allow you to hang a little more into the boot with your stance and soften the hair trigger effect of leaning into the boots.  I cannot over emphasize the difference in feel between the Kryptons and regular 2-piece shell boots, and it takes time to transition.  You actually ski them differently with the Krypts using more knee action going forward as opposed to the Rossis skiing like most boots and initiating by hinging more with your ankles.

 

Ramp angle and several other factors can effect the situation, but after years of messing with differenct boots and forward lean I have come to the conclusion that your body type and natural style dictates a certain optimum forward lean.  You can learn to ski any boot, but buying one without adjustable forward lean may trap you into needing to adopt a new style.

 

Based on my (probably inaccurate) neasurements, these are 5 degrees more upright than the Kryptons were.

 

My boots prior to the Kryptons were Langes. When I first skied the Kryptons, while different, I was used to it in a matter of a few runs.  Not working in reverse. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castle Dave View Post

Disclaimer - this idea is probably way off base but I thought I throw it out anyway.  Maybe it's not a 'fore/aft forward lean angle' thing. Your new boots are now perfectly flat, neutral after canting and cuff alignment. Are you pronated? Were your old Kryptons also canted as well as cuff aligned?  If not and if you are pronated it might mean you were slightly angulating your inside edge in the old boots making the skis very quick to engage but now your skis are perfectly flat and that takes more movement to roll onto the edge.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

You also need to take into account your ski/plate/binding combo in the fore/aft quotient.

 

Did the boot guy do your fore/aft analysis with you clicked into your bindings?  How much ramp in the ski/plate/binding combo?

 

Keep in mind, canting is more art than science. 

 

Did you experiment with different amounts of cant by tape canting before going full tilt permanent?

 

Last time I had canting work done, we made it reversible. And fortunately so. I could not get an edge on my right ski once the canting was done. this is becuse i am twisted (my right foot) & canting cannot fix a twisted discrepancy.

I do pronate. However, my previous boots were also canted and adjusted by the same bootfitter who did my Kryptons.  He also started from scratch this time, just to check, but ended up with the same cant adjustments.

 

Haven't played with bindings fore/aft. 

post #11 of 13

How did you guys decide on the canting? Have you asked your bootfitter these questions?

post #12 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Castle Dave View Post

 

Actually I believe it works the other way. Pronated = knockkneed so downhill knee/foot is edged into the hill and consequently edging the ski into the hill while the uphill ski does not edge.

You are describing what happens when supinated = bowlegged. Which cant correction did you receive? For knockkneed or bowlegged? My bet would be your pronation was corrected on the new boots but not entirely corrected on your old boots so the downhill ski edge was slightly engaged all the time on your old boots. Easy edge engagement but not the most stable.

I always get those mixed up.

post #13 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

How did you guys decide on the canting? Have you asked your bootfitter these questions?

He has a bunch of equipment he uses for canting. But mostly based on inserting various angled strips under the boots as he analyzes what happens as you rock side to side mimicking skiing motions.  So nothing is really addressing fore/aft.  He did suggest trying the boots both with and without the heel lifts and spoiler.

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