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Edge Grip - Dynastar Speed Course Ti vs. Older Fischer SC

post #1 of 9
Thread Starter 

A question on edge grip...

 

The tuner - me, both skis 3/1, usually use stones, sometimes a file, both pairs pass the tuning stick and fingernail test

 

The pilot - me, same run, same day, back-to-back.  My first real day so I'm rusty but I was rusty on both skis.  155 lbs.

 

The trail - man-made snow on a modestly steep slope (think fairly typical NE groomed black run - Hellgate at Hunter) that had become scraped a couple of hours into the day but not to the extant where you could see your reflection.

 

The skis - 2011/12 Dynastar Speed Course Ti @ 171 cm 121/72/105 15m cheater GS type ski with under 10 days.  2005ish Fischer WC SC @ 160 cm 118/66/98 12m cheater SL type ski with max 50 days (probably 35ish), lots of bump skiing.

 

The grip of the Speed Course is tenacious.  Total confidence inspiring.  If it starts to lose grip, it's progressive with plenty of time for correction.  The grip of the WC SC was significantly less overall.  When it let go, it really let go.  It was fine skiing basically straight down but it couldn't hold a full "C" turn. 

 

So what's the deal?  Is the WC SC suffering from age?  It used to be my favorite front side ski.  But, I never remember it holding nearly as well as the Speed Course.  Something about a cheater GS vs. cheater SL?  A bit too short?  I really like the quickness of the WC SC and it's far better in the bumps but would really appreciate more grip for something with race graphics.

post #2 of 9

Just a guess, but I'm gessing if you were trying to make the same turn at the same speed with SC as you made with the Speed coursa, you would have to incline the ski less, perhaps less than the critical angle required for the ski not to slip up out of it's groove at that speed considering the centrifugla forces.   OR if you had that ski inclined enough to hold yourself in the turn considering the centrifugal force at that speed and radius, the ski would have been trying to dial up a tighter turn than it could hold. 

 

The ski may be worn out, but I think the SC would last more than 35-50 days.  To hold a clean carve there is a speed/radius range that you have to live in, in order to stay within the critical angle limitations of the ski.

post #3 of 9

Goldspar,

 

I had the same experience this season with a pair of new GS skis and new SL skis. The GS skis had great grip on scraped terrain and the slalom was slipping a lot. A friend was on the same slalom ski as me and he was having the same issue. I don't have an explanation for it, but I really feel something isn't right with the slalom ski. The GS skis wouldn't make small radius turns, but they had the best edge grip I have ever felt. They are 192 cm Blizzard race stock 27m GS skis. The slalom's are Rossi 9SL slant nose, 175 cm consumer race ski (not race stock or WC model). I am 6' 4" and 250 lbs. 

 

I had the rossi tuned, even though it is brand new, and both skies had really sharp edges. The rossi's felt funny when turning, the tips would start to grip, and then let go, and the rest of the edge would engage, but it didn't hold real well. I need to check the tune and see if the edges around the tip have been dulled or not beveled properly. That is my best guess, as the ski has a lot of side cut and maybe the grinding machine couldn't handle the side cut. The rossi's felt better when I skied them a lot faster, but something is not right with the skis. The GS were rock solid no matter what.

 

How did your slaloms edge feel in the turn? I have skied the Fischer SC' s and they impressed me with how solid they felt and I would have expect good ice grip

post #4 of 9

If you are trying to ski the same line on both skis you are missing the point.

When I ski my WCSC's I make about 50% more turns than on any pair of my GS boards.

Sl skis will drift a long radius turn but won't fully hook unless you ski them like you are in a slalom course.

With GS boards you can park and ride, with SL boards it's stab and grab.

post #5 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post

If you are trying to ski the same line on both skis you are missing the point.

When I ski my WCSC's I make about 50% more turns than on any pair of my GS boards.

Sl skis will drift a long radius turn but won't fully hook unless you ski them like you are in a slalom course.

With GS boards you can park and ride, with SL boards it's stab and grab.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bttocs View Post

Goldspar,

 

I had the same experience this season with a pair of new GS skis and new SL skis. The GS skis had great grip on scraped terrain and the slalom was slipping a lot. A friend was on the same slalom ski as me and he was having the same issue. I don't have an explanation for it, but I really feel something isn't right with the slalom ski. The GS skis wouldn't make small radius turns, but they had the best edge grip I have ever felt. They are 192 cm Blizzard race stock 27m GS skis. The slalom's are Rossi 9SL slant nose, 175 cm consumer race ski (not race stock or WC model). I am 6' 4" and 250 lbs. 

 

I had the rossi tuned, even though it is brand new, and both skies had really sharp edges. The rossi's felt funny when turning, the tips would start to grip, and then let go, and the rest of the edge would engage, but it didn't hold real well. I need to check the tune and see if the edges around the tip have been dulled or not beveled properly. That is my best guess, as the ski has a lot of side cut and maybe the grinding machine couldn't handle the side cut. The rossi's felt better when I skied them a lot faster, but something is not right with the skis. The GS were rock solid no matter what.

 

How did your slaloms edge feel in the turn? I have skied the Fischer SC' s and they impressed me with how solid they felt and I would have expect good ice grip

ummm, yes.  Cant really compare a full on GS stock ski with a consumer slalom (in this case slalom is just a marketing term for short turn ski - the 9sl is not a race ski)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post

If you are trying to ski the same line on both skis you are missing the point.

When I ski my WCSC's I make about 50% more turns than on any pair of my GS boards.

Sl skis will drift a long radius turn but won't fully hook unless you ski them like you are in a slalom course.

With GS boards you can park and ride, with SL boards it's stab and grab.

exactly.  Plus the WCSC is also going to be losing some torsional stiffness at this stage 

post #6 of 9
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post

If you are trying to ski the same line on both skis you are missing the point.

When I ski my WCSC's I make about 50% more turns than on any pair of my GS boards.

Sl skis will drift a long radius turn but won't fully hook unless you ski them like you are in a slalom course.

With GS boards you can park and ride, with SL boards it's stab and grab.

Good point.  I was doing this as an experiment but essentially ended up skiing "stab and grab" as the "park and ride" wasn't working (love those terms!).  Still, really surprised by the difference and the suddeness of the grip loss when skied back-to-back.

post #7 of 9

I was doing all sorts of different turns on the Sl skis, trying to figure out what kind of turn they wanted to make. They were not really happy with any turn. The only thing that worked was going very fast (say 40 mph) then doing quick on/off the edges turns. I guess I would call them short radius turns. I was on  a pretty mild slope. When I roll a ski on its edge you can feel the edges engage and it lets you know how it wants to turn. I expected the SL ski to want to come around really quickly. It started to do that and then the tip would let go and give up. Then it couldn't figure out how it wanted to turn. Either these skis are the most limited and specialized ski I have ever been on, or there is something not right with the edges. I planned to go over them with my true bar and magnifying glass before posting about them, but I saw this post and could relate.

post #8 of 9

Ok, I took the true bar to the skis and figured why they had poor ice grip. On this ski, Rossi 9SL slant nose, the side cut is very extreme, 124 mm tip and 70mm waiste. The max width point on the tip and tail is almost right at the end of the ski, on the tip it is about 1" back from the end of the ski. The tips are very dull for about 2" back from the max width point. This may be confusing the way I am describing it, but the bottom line is the machine used to tune the skis did not go all the way out to the contact point of the ski, it stopped short a couple of inches from the tip and tails. The skis want to grip and turn, but can't get any hold until bent into a turn, and by that time they are already sliding out.

 

I need to sharpen and bevel the ski all the way to the contact point and that should make a big difference.

 

Goldsbar, have you checked the tune at and past the contact point of the ski?

post #9 of 9

I understand this thread is a bit old,but I will share my experiences. I have a set of Course Ti's in 177,16m.T.R. This ski is one of 4 sets of carving skis I use.The others I own are Head World Cup iSL 170 13m,Head iTitan 177 14.7m  and Rossi 9GS 180 19.0m.I also am a large person 6'4" and 260.I find the personality of the Course Ti's to be very different to the others to point of  making the others feel very lacking in grip. This happens when skiing the Course Ti's first and switching to one of the others. It takes  adjustments to "make friends" with the others and ski them like they need to be skied. The edge grip on the Course Ti's is unusually strong and instantaneous. I LOVE THIS SKI! The others in the quiver are great in different ways,they just need different inputs to make them sing.  John 

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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Edge Grip - Dynastar Speed Course Ti vs. Older Fischer SC