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Stacked Skiing or Moving Upper Body Downhill? - Page 3

post #61 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzledVeteran View Post

How do you know he "produces exactly that result"? Being "stacked" is felt, not shown.**...
__________________
** I suppose there are cases where you can compare before &after of someone whose body is way out of whack when skiing in the Before, and is slightly better After, and say the stacking was shown. But focusing on what it looks like hides the real thing of how it feels. I can imagine someone watching Darren's vid and emulating the body posture and thinking "stacking" is happening even if it's not.

One problem with stacking as a concept is that it doesn't have a very precise definition.  The closest you get in practice in my view is when talking to intermediates on down about getting out of the backseat.  There, stacking is I think a helpful phrase, used in the context of stacking things vertically.

 

In terms of higher-level skiing, you can look at people who are more or less square to their skis who are equally good and equally "stacked" in terms of forces.  To be as politically correct as possible, Lemaster has some montages of people like Cuche versus Defago showing this.  What stacking at that level emphatically does not mean is keeping your hips vertically over your skis, or staying square ALL the time.  Not saying the video in question was advocating this, but I think many people do believe -- and do get taught -- that stacking is a static posture.

 

Of course, you could say the same about counter and angulation, etc. in that they should not be static.  For me, I just feel I know more what someone means when they use those phrases, whereas with stacked I need much more context to get some sense of what they are getting at.  The video has all the subtle points in it in terms of not overdoing, not being static, etc., but for me I would have heard those subtle qualifiers better if he had started with a lead-in or preface saying, "This lesson is for skiers with X or Y problems..."  Maybe even given a visual example of someone who could benefit from being a bit more square at points in a turn.  That may be asking an awful lot and maybe I should be willing to work more when looking at youtube clips.


Edited by CTKook - 12/28/12 at 9:45am
post #62 of 72

Hesus H on a popsicle stick... what a thread. No wonder everyone hates ski instructors. Splitting hares into puree while forgetting what the rabbit even looks like. Now that's hunting!!!  nonono2.gif

post #63 of 72
where ya been, marko? skiing the deep i supoose; )

zenny
post #64 of 72

Now, who would you smooth out with the type drill shown in the initial video?  One example:  let's say someone learned to ski while at a Swiss boarding school in the 1970s, and hasn't skied a lot since but remains a beautiful skier.  Such people do exist, and some oddly enough, or not, are not into shaped skis because they have trouble making them work for them.  Some actually leapfrog a few decades of ski design and can do well on freeride shapes that aren't hooky, though.  Yeah, for such a person you might basically take them through the initial video, more or less, assuming they wanted to commit to that change.  Admittedly, maybe one person a year might have this apply to them.

 

Another:  a racer who finishes too often while looking good but is slow.  Maybe something like that viddie plus the snow-touch drill for someone who is solid overall.

 

Finally, for many people using too much upper body rotation, trying to break them of it can almost end up looking like what is shown in the relevant video, too. 

post #65 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

the intent of the drill, is pretty clear. As I stated earlier and repeatedly always and never have little place in ski teaching. Darren suggest using less rotary and angulation , his demo clearly shows dynamic ski performance without much of either. Arguing that his style is boring, or not effective only because it is different does not change the fact that his skis are working well. Which is the bottom line here. Learning why he can do that without applying more of either skill is an opportunity to expand your understanding of the
sport. Does that mean it invalidates anything? No, all it confirms is there is more than one way to get skis to perform. Even the idea of getting more performance from the skis needs to be filtered through the lens of intent. He states his intent and produces exactly that intended result. That is why all the comments about doing something different are hardly relevant.

So my last comment on this will be that this is the problem we have. Too many people think anything goes and you can do things 15 different ways in 15 different situations and teach newbies that and overcomplicate everything to the point that there is no consistency, everyone is confused and doesn't understand what the heck is going on.

Good skiing is not hard to comprehend... it has only a few different components, which you mix in more or less, depending on the situation. Period. Everything not demonstrating these components is bad skiing, this stacking video included.
post #66 of 72

    This'll be short...gotta run. The stacked video to my eye is good advanced intermediate skiing. That being said, if a skier wants to advance further towards "expert-dom" , he/she is going to have to learn and apply "new" things (why not learn them in the first place?? th_dunno-1[1].gif), like angulation/countering (as in when and how to use them). It is possible to be quiet with your upper body while at the same time maintaining proper upper/lower separation, eg no flailing of arms.The video has it's place, as Jasp suggests, but CLEARLY is not the pinnacle of ski technique smile.gif

 

    zentune

post #67 of 72

Duped

post #68 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

 

The hips/pelvis are part of the upper body in skiing.  The lower body starts at the femural head.  That is where the "twisting" should happen....  In the ball & socket joint, not in the spine.

 

Thanks for your most excellent point.

 

I see three major pivot points the human skeleton has in driving those boards.

 

The femur/hip interface is the primary moment input to the ski.  A moment is an engineering term of a force applied on a radius.

 

My secondary pivot is the ball/just behind of the foot works swell even if it is a bit tied to the thighbone, (where it rotates the foot follows).

 

And the third major input of a moment is where the hips seperate from the spine.  

 

I tried and failed over and over for twenty years unable to drive the feet where the skis went while I could not fathom why.  I'd be struggling committing to a turn that never came while real skiers fluttered down the bumps looking effortless.

 

Finally in a session, my PT put his hands on my hips, and showed me how the spine does indeed twist a good 180 degrees or so over quiet hips in the PT shop, I immediately envisioned the reverse happening while skiing.

 

This seperation is a mystery to every advanced intermediate who hear the word, but cannot apply it to their movements.  But once a skier finds this movement of the upper body quet while the lower twists left and right in a constant coiling/uncoiling manner, the black diamonds suddenly become easy.

 

These are just tricks a skier has in their bag that may or may not be used on varying parts of the hill.

 

Early season, I avoid speed trouble and still entertain myself doing separation drills down the fall line on whatever WROD is available short radius turns with a quiet upper body in the zipperline.  It may look stupid but bump turns are bump turns.  If I can't manage it on the blues, how will I ever do them on the blacksth_dunno-1[1].gif

post #69 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

    This'll be short...gotta run. The stacked video to my eye is good advanced intermediate skiing. That being said, if a skier wants to advance further towards "expert-dom" , he/she is going to have to learn and apply "new" things (why not learn them in the first place?? th_dunno-1[1].gif), like angulation/countering (as in when and how to use them). It is possible to be quiet with your upper body while at the same time maintaining proper upper/lower separation, eg no flailing of arms.The video has it's place, as Jasp suggests, but CLEARLY is not the pinnacle of ski technique smile.gif

 

    zentune

 

 

Sure, why not hold the wedge demo as inferior to WC level carving and pressure control? Because we have to walk before we win the 100m gold.


Edited by markojp - 12/31/12 at 10:04am
post #70 of 72
true enough markojp!
post #71 of 72
It's kinda hard to win the 100m gold these days if you're not born with Usain Bolt's ridiculous genetic gifts.
post #72 of 72

The next hundred meter champ is taking his/her first steps as we type. smile.gif  I think even Mr. B had a little coaching along the way. Most Olympic champs do.


Edited by markojp - 12/31/12 at 12:04pm
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