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Do the end edges of my new skis need bluntening? - Page 2

post #31 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

Avic,

Cautionary note - this is the internet and everyone including me is guessing. Proceed with caution.

Yes and Yes to your questions. You might want to consider posting this in the "ask the boot guys" forum but I'll give you my thoughts on trouble shooting this down.

First the foot bed. Part of the reason for the foot bed is to get your ankle aligned. This is especially helpful for people with flat feet. My daughter has very flat feet and is in an A frame without foot beds and riding her inside edges. Mainly to prevent the pain at the ankle bone. Anything you do with the boot is wasted (my opinion) unless the ankle is aligned. Some people don't use/need foot beds and they are either blessed with great alignment of have found a way to compensate. Most fitters start with the foot bed and work their way up and out from there.

I'm a little confused about why you took the foot bed out. You said your one foot was smaller and you took the foot bed out so there would be more room. Did you mean that foot was slightly too big for the boot? If that is the case, a fitter can cure that while using the custom foot bed.

Once the boots are correct and aligned (cuff alignment checked and boot sole canting checked), go ski and bring duct tape. If your inside edges are still catching (might be less, might be one, could be none), first check your stance. Are your feet in or outside of your hips? If outside, move them closer together. Some folks use the jump up and down method to find out the correct width. Easy to do as your feet will come naturally under your hips unless you try to force it.

If the stance is correct and it is still happening, break out the duct tape. Put about 4 or 5 narrow strips stacked on the outside edge of your binding where the boot sole touches it. The strips should be 1/8 to 1/4 " wide and about 1/8" in from the edge. This will push the outside edge down. You can also try putting a folded trail map or something at the top of your boot cuff to push your leg in the direction you need the boot/ski to move. I've never done this method though so I'm not sure how it will work. I believe in your case you would put the shim on the inside cuff to push your leg and cuff to the outside to get the inside edge up and outside edge down.

Also, don't look at your feet to see what is happening, this causes your butt to move back and changes your stance. Stand tall and look down hill.

You should also have someone watch you ski and preferably someone that understand alignment and stance. This can be especially helpful if a fitter checks you out and you're good to go but you still have an issue. Could be a technique thing and you just need to narrow your stance. I'm guessing at some of this as I have seen you ski.

Have fun and happy hunting,

Ken

Hi Ken,

Thanks for the informative post. By the way yes my feet are very flat!

I took out the custom foot bed because within one run the arch of my foot would really hurt. Then my toes would get cold and numb, presumably because it was cutting of my blood supply. Taking the foot bed out and replacing it with the original, flat one has actually helped with the pain. It feels less tight. Maybe just the right hand side foot bed was done badly? Its worth mentioning, currently with the custom foot bed still in the other foot feels perfect but it is like half a size smaller. With the problem foot, when the second down buckle is on loosely my toes touch the end of the boot and get numb and cold quickly and when i do it tightly it reduces this but the pain intensifies! Can't win!

I generally ski with my feet inside my hips.

By the way the second part of today I skied on my original volkle tiger sharks and didn't really notice any catching. But I presume this could be due the the fact that my tiger sharks are a lot slimmer than my mosquitos and therefor the effect would be less pronounced?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

Yes, it could cause your foot without the custom foot bed to pronate (collapse to the inside at your heel), I'm not a boot fitting expert...but I know some:rolleyes . It is noteworthy that you're having problems with BOTH inside edges though. Did you get these boots new with the skis? Which brand and model are they? If you got them new, it could be a canting issue for sure. If you've had these boots with other skis, then I would suspect a tuning issue with the skis, in which case I would recommend having a shop do full tune on them (edges and wax).


hope this helps

zenny

The boots are 3 years old Solomon pro falcons 120 flex which I had reduced down to like a 95 flex as during the last season I did my shins got so bruised I couldn't ski. These boots really have caused me so many problems but they were expensive and if possible I want to make them work!

When they are on should skis that are within a shoulders width sit perfectly flat to a solid floor? Or should they sit in a slight v shape? Mine definitely have a v even when close together.

Thanks for everyone's input by the way, I'm taking it all in!
post #32 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

 

Thinking a bit simpler for the OP, if he always has the same skis on the same feet, it could be as simple as base bevels. Testing that by just switching the skis to the other feet is simple - if he starts having outside edge problems, it is the base bevel.

 

New skis, likely the base bevel is off the same on both edges. Many ski companies either just send out skis with 0 base bevel and 90 sides, or their QC dept is sleeping. Either way checking the skis for flatness and applying the correct tune on the edges is important. It also never hurts to have a good bootfitter around!. But since the OP didn't have this problem with his old skis and the fact the shop wanted to detune the tips, they just may not be tuned properly.

post #33 of 40

I have seen NO skis come from a factory (other than some and not all race stock skis) with a 0 base bevel.

 

Most wider skis come with way too much base bevel if anything and this would not cause what is happening to the OP.

 

Ya just don't skis with your skis both flat to the snow with this generation of shape skis. They are not designed for straight running. they are designed to be up on edge!

 

By the way normal alignment is slightly inside any way! Proper aligment is 1 degree inside of center of knee. So yes you should be a little tiny bit on your inside edges of botth skis.

 

I takes discipline and skill to ski on a shape skis straiaght running and keep the skis neutral. There maybe nothing worng at all with the OP's gear. Could just be techique and the idea of flat running on shape boards. Back to my original post.

 

Supple ankles, keep the inside edges off the snow if your are straight running. Other wise keep those pups slightly up on edge with the edge angles matched!

 

Also could be something a s simple as a proper cuff adjustment. Contrary to popular opinion, cuff adjustment is not canting (even though the boot companies blow that smoke up your kazoo, embossed on their boots and marketing jive!) No cuff aligment just centers your lower leg in the cuff. It is the 1st step before you perform true canting process anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bplatt03443 View Post

 

New skis, likely the base bevel is off the same on both edges. Many ski companies either just send out skis with 0 base bevel and 90 sides, or their QC dept is sleeping. Either way checking the skis for flatness and applying the correct tune on the edges is important. It also never hurts to have a good bootfitter around!. But since the OP didn't have this problem with his old skis and the fact the shop wanted to detune the tips, they just may not be tuned properly.

post #34 of 40

"Ya just don't skis with your skis both flat to the snow with this generation of shape skis. They are not designed for straight running. they are designed to be up on edge!"

 

I totally agree with this statement.  That was true when the first 'parabolics' came out, or at least that was my observation.  It's even more true now with wider lengths, especially in the tips, and the much more aggressive side cuts.  I hadn't really gotten that as being the issue when first reading the OP's posts but if that's what the complaint is, then what you wrote is likely the cause.  And yes, ride a slight edge back and forth; problem solved.

post #35 of 40

A few things:

 

You can't generalize that all "modern" skis do not need de-tuning as there are more types of skis now than at any time in history (race, carving, powder, big mountain, park, all-mountain, etc).  With all the different shapes available, it is possible that a skier will find the engagement points on a given ski to be too far out at the tip and tail based on their skiing style, snow conditions, mounting position on the ski, stance, etc.  I have had several pairs of skis that skied better with de-tuned contact points (Scott Punisher, ON3P Wrenegade and Billy Goat, Armada TST, Dynastar Mythic Riders) because they became much easier to release out of turns in funky Pacific Northwest snow and the tips were easier to manage in bumps and on choppy groomers.  There is nothing wrong with de-tuning a ski little by little until the desired result is achieved; if the skier is happy with the end result then nothing is "wrong."  I will concede that adjusting the base bevel at tip and tail will achieve a similar result and will maintain more effective edge, but it can be costly and you need a good tech or proper tools and tuning skills.

 

The OP should probably:

 

1. check boot canting as many have mentioned

2. check base flatness (explain to the shop that they need to use a metal bar to check)

3. try skiing them more and move from edge to edge on the flats.  Mosquitos have a rather extreme shape and it is not surprising that they may be a little catchy on flats.  Skis with less sidecut will be less likely to catch like you have been experiencing with your other skis.

4. consider de-tuning or beveling edges at tip and tail as a last resort.  It is more difficult to undo de-tuning or bevels so start with a little at tip and tail and see if that works.

post #36 of 40

Well, yes.  devil.gif

 

With all the different shovels available today, we can't make a general statement like leave a grain shovel the size it was designed.  It's quite possible someone will find that it picks up too much snow and is too heavy.  It's quite all right for them to take the shovel to the machine shop and grind off half of it.  That would make it easier for them to use.

 

With all the different bikes available today, it's quite possible someone might find their Suzuki 750 GSXR too responsive and powerful.  It's quite all right for them to increase the rake and trail of the steering, throw on some high mount handle bars along with some highway pegs and retard the ignition timing.

 

With all the different cars availale today, somebody might find their Mazda Miata turns in too quickly and provides too much feedback.  It' fine for them to swap front end hardware and power steering with a '69 Satelite.

 

With all the different snow tires available today omeone might find their studded Hakapelita7 tires too grippy.  It's quite all right for them to pull the studs out and shave off the tread.

 

With all the different champagne available today, someone might find their Don Perignon not quite sweet enough.  It's quite all right for them to add a teaspoon of sugar to their glass.

 

With all the different hot sauces available today, it's quite possible that someone might find the Scotch Bonnet sauce a little too spicy.  It's quite all right for them to dilute it 1000 to 1 with water.

 

If you don't want a turny ski, don't buy a turny ski; it's not that hard to find out what the turn radius the ski has.  If you buy a turny ski, lean that sucker over and turn.

 

duck.gif

post #37 of 40

Ghost,

That brings up a good point.  I'm not an old school skier so I have ask "Why did everyone detune their skis?"  I've always believed it was to make turning easier and to reduce the risk of hooking an edge on a ski that was 200+ cm long.  I'm guessing that what this did was take a 200cm ski that had approximately 190-195 cm (th_dunno-1[1].gif) running surface and reduce that to something like 170-175cm.  Guessing on the running surface.

 

Fast forward to a couple of years ago and our shorter shapelier skis, that have as much if not more surface area on the snow when flat, are starting to have early rise.  So a 175ish contemporary ski with a running surface of about 160cm with added early rise is down to about 150 cm at slower speeds.  The running surface is somewhat variable; short slalom type ski at slower speeds and turn initiation then a more gs like at higher speeds.

 

The ski the OP is talking about is an full twin tip with an early rise ski, so though it is an 180, the actual running surface at low speed and flat is probably close to <155 cm and the turn radius is only 14M.  I don't understand how detuning this ski will prevent the tip from catching an edge when flat since the tip is early rise and at least in theory, shouldn't be touching the snow.  If it is, it is because it is being pressured.

 

Or of course I'm wrong and everything above is only true in my head.

 

Ken

post #38 of 40

Avic, put your custom footbed back in your tight fitting boot. Then go to an ultra thin ski sock or to gain even more room, go with an ultra thin sock liner.

post #39 of 40

Ken- to answer your question, I've found that the edge along the rocker in the tip and tails of some skis will engage during a hard turn and this sometimes leads to erratic ski behavior if the ski doesn't have a sidecut that is designed to work with the rockered tip.  It seems ironic that rocker could lead to a catchy ski, but it depends on whether the ski pas properly designed and tested.  Detuning can be particularly helpful on rocker skis with early taper (ie. fattest part of ski occurs prior to the tip, near the end of the running edge (ie. Armada TST and JJ, Rossi S7).  Non-early rise rockered skis tend not to have as much of an issue with catchy tips at extreme angulation (ie. hellbent, Cochise, Patron, etc).

 

If a ski is detuned above the effective running edge, than the length of the running edge is not diminished, but catchyness can be reduced as the tips will be less likely to hook at extreme angles or in chunky snow.  Assuming that no modern skis need to be de-tuned is also assuming that manufacturers have correctly designed sidecuts to go with tip profile and all possible types of snow conditions.  Again, it all comes down to personal preference and skiing style.

 

Ghost- you have quite an imagination.  Props to you for your creativity and analogies, I had a good laugh.  I think you prove my point that people may modify their skis (and shovel/cars/hot sauce, etc) to suit their liking.  

post #40 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by ten80 View Post

Ken- to answer your question, I've found that the edge along the rocker in the tip and tails of some skis will engage during a hard turn and this sometimes leads to erratic ski behavior if the ski doesn't have a sidecut that is designed to work with the rockered tip.  It seems ironic that rocker could lead to a catchy ski, but it depends on whether the ski pas properly designed and tested.  Detuning can be particularly helpful on rocker skis with early taper (ie. fattest part of ski occurs prior to the tip, near the end of the running edge (ie. Armada TST and JJ, Rossi S7).  Non-early rise rockered skis tend not to have as much of an issue with catchy tips at extreme angulation (ie. hellbent, Cochise, Patron, etc).

If a ski is detuned above the effective running edge, than the length of the running edge is not diminished, but catchyness can be reduced as the tips will be less likely to hook at extreme angles or in chunky snow.  Assuming that no modern skis need to be de-tuned is also assuming that manufacturers have correctly designed sidecuts to go with tip profile and all possible types of snow conditions.  Again, it all comes down to personal preference and skiing style.

Ghost- you have quite an imagination.  Props to you for your creativity and analogies, I had a good laugh.  I think you prove my point that people may modify their skis (and shovel/cars/hot sauce, etc) to suit their liking.  

ten80,

Which question of mine were you answering?

You're talking about edges catching on hard turns and in chunky snow. That isn't what the OP or I am talking about. I'm talking about edges catching when running flat for no apparent reason.

Ken,
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