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irregularities in wax after brushing - Page 2

post #31 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by tch View Post

Thank you so much for so much info.  So finally....can I just ski this stuff off?   Or do I have to re-scrape and brush?  I'm not a racer; I just like fast(er) skis.

 

No one would ever know the difference, not even a world cup racer. That little bit of excess wax will never be a problem for you.

post #32 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post

 

On free-heel gear no one would ever know the difference, not even a world cup racer. That little bit of excess wax will never be a problem for you.

 

Fixed.    So to speak.    duck.gif

post #33 of 55

Don't blame your bindings.

post #34 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post


I sometimes scrape and brush 1/2 hour or an hour after waxing. Why do you think that further penetration into the ptex would happen after initial cooling and hardening of the wax?

   Wax hardens from the "outside" in...the pores in a sintered base still contain wax that isn't fully hardened (several hours, depending on the wax type, tuning room tamp,how much the ski was heated, etc...)...

 

  To use a tenuous analogy, think of a candle which has been burning long enough to form a pool of wax underneath the wick, in the "bowl' (not sure what the correct term is, I'm not a candlesmith roflmao.gif), once you blow out the flame, the wax begins to cool on the surface and yet will remain "molten" below. Push on it with your finger an hour later, and it's still soft (I burned myself a lot as a kid!!). 

 

  Scraping and brushing right away can strip wax out of these pores, leaving your skis "gas tank" not quite full...additionally, letting the skis cool too fast, ie putting them outside when it's cold, will actually cause these pores to contract rather quickly (when the wax is still soft) , in effect squeezing out some of the wax...

 

  Instead of penetration, think of retention...

 

   zenny


Edited by zentune - 12/17/12 at 6:18pm
post #35 of 55

I just read a piece on this from Thanos K from Dominator Wax. It said that when wax is first put on, and first hardens, it has a disorganized structure and high internal friction. When it cools slowly and with time, it becomes better organized and its internal friction reaches its minimum. If it cools too fast, its disorganized/high internal friction becomes "frozen" and the wax does not perform as well as it should.
 

post #36 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

I just read a piece on this from Thanos K from Dominator Wax. It said that when wax is first put on, and first hardens, it has a disorganized structure and high internal friction. When it cools slowly and with time, it becomes better organized and its internal friction reaches its minimum. If it cools too fast, its disorganized/high internal friction becomes "frozen" and the wax does not perform as well as it should.
 

 

Am I the only one reading this and expecting a flurry of "What's the best cooling profile for my hot box?" posts?

post #37 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post

 

Am I the only one reading this and expecting a flurry of "What's the best cooling profile for my hot box?" posts?

 No...you're not the only one rolleyes.gif...

post #38 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post

 

Am I the only one reading this and expecting a flurry of "What's the best cooling profile for my hot box?" posts?

If they have that question, I'd say see Dominator Tom (the new guy on Epic from Dominator Wax) because what I read is the limit of my knowledge on the molecular behavior of waxes. My take away was to do what I was doing - leave the wax harden for the recommended time period,

post #39 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

If they have that question, I'd say see Dominator Tom (the new guy on Epic from Dominator Wax) because what I read is the limit of my knowledge on the molecular behavior of waxes. My take away was to do what I was doing - leave the wax harden for the recommended time period,

   Yeah...I have to say, I know little to nothing about wax hardening at the molecular level....do you have a link for us vsirin? I, for one, would be interested....

 

 

     zenny

post #40 of 55
There is a thread from last season discussing the "cure" times. Two seasons ago I changed over to Dominator and wasn't happy with the performance. I posted here and called Dominator. Ended up talking to Tom for quite some time. He graciously explained the errors of my way and got me on the right path. My issues were using the wrong wax for the temperature AND not letting the wax sit long enough so it could finish curing. At Dominators site they list the recommended times. I thought once the skis were back to room temp that was enough. That is not the case, especially with the softer waxes (I.e. Zoom), some are 1.5 hours and I had been only waiting 30 minutes.

I don't really understand why you have to let the skis set but that is Tom's and Dr. K's rice bowl. I'm much happier just knowing that I need to and follow the recommendations (already have way too much crammed into my puny human brain).

End result is I have skis faster than I should have and to keep things simple, I usually let the skis sit overnight after hot waxing no matter the wax I'm using.

Ken
post #41 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

There is a thread from last season discussing the "cure" times. Two seasons ago I changed over to Dominator and wasn't happy with the performance. I posted here and called Dominator. Ended up talking to Tom for quite some time. He graciously explained the errors of my way and got me on the right path. My issues were using the wrong wax for the temperature AND not letting the wax sit long enough so it could finish curing. At Dominators site they list the recommended times. I thought once the skis were back to room temp that was enough. That is not the case, especially with the softer waxes (I.e. Zoom), some are 1.5 hours and I had been only waiting 30 minutes.
I don't really understand why you have to let the skis set but that is Tom's and Dr. K's rice bowl. I'm much happier just knowing that I need to and follow the recommendations (already have way too much crammed into my puny human brain).
End result is I have skis faster than I should have and to keep things simple, I usually let the skis sit overnight after hot waxing no matter the wax I'm using.
Ken

  Yep...it's pretty much a waxing fundamental which I (and many others here I'm sure) learned a long time ago--though we may not fully understand the science behind it (the analogy I used above was something I was told--probably to help me understand it easier, I supposerolleyes.gif....

post #42 of 55

Here is the link you asked for, Zentune:
http://dominatorwax.com/technical-education
See wax "science demystified", pages 13 and 14.

While you are at the technical education link, take a look at the waxroom safety (your posts make me think you are some sort of ski tech so this is very relevant) and read responsible and evidence-supported views by medical researchers.
 
I will post some interesting hot box information after the holidays, things are jamming right now at the office. Hot boxing is not used much while during WC travel, but it is used extensively by some experienced technicians when preparing world cup skis for the tour.
 


Edited by Dominator Tom - 12/18/12 at 8:53am
post #43 of 55
nice...i'll read it tonite (i am a tech...tho not as involved as i used to be wink.gif)
thanks tom,

zenny
post #44 of 55

  Ok, so I read all of Dom Tom's link...interesting read smile.gif  If anyone else is curious--check it out!  Re-affirms allowing sufficient hardening time and discusses (in mostly layman's terms) what happens as wax cools at the molecular level. I use swix, personally, as I get a racer discount at my local shop--but the principles are very universal in regards to brandswink.gif

 

  Thanks again Tom!

 

  zenny

post #45 of 55

What I found most interesting in the article was knowing why and how some of the things we do in waxing work. In addition to some interesting science, there is a lot of practical information in the Wax Science article that can help a skier with an inquiring mind make better decisions on wax selection both in terms of type (fluoro, graphite and other additives, etc.) and hardness. And the information is not about how to use Dominator waxes, as Zenny said the principles are applicable to any brand. I also thought the safety article is worth reading for anyone who either uses fluoro waxes or who does more than a couple of pairs of skis a week.

post #46 of 55

All science aside, when you allow the wax to harden, you end up with a much better finish after scraping and brushing.

When brushing wax that has not had time to set, you will notice the wax smears, rather than getting that nice crisp

feel under the brush.

post #47 of 55

One natural question that isn't covered in the article:

 

" Does mechanical polishing (by cork or by polishing pad, for instance) affect or improve long-distance ordering of wax molecules?"

 

If "Yes" then the next questions become:

 

"Does brushing affect (either improve or disrupt) long-distance ordering of wax molecules?     Does the effect of a brush on wax molecules depend on the type of brush? For example, does a sharp-tipped bristle brush generally disrupt ordering (so we want to have the ordered wax at maximal hardness before we brush)?   For example, does a soft brush with rounded bristle tips generally have a polishing effect (so we can improve ordering and actually polish the wax -inside- the microgrooves of ski structure)?  "

post #48 of 55

Easy way to keep this from happening is by using Fiberlene sheets as your last pass when you wax(before scraping)

 

 

1 sheet does a pair of skis.  Cuts down on scraping and brushing time by absorbing excess wax. . Promotes very even coating of wax and helps protect base from excess heat.

 

I never wax without them

 

http://www.artechski.com/swix-fiberlene-pro-cleaning-paper-6712.aspx

 

By the way Tom, we are CMAC' ers and have and do use Dominator exclusively!

 

I'll give Al a heads up for ya!

 

CW

post #49 of 55

@ cantunamunch

This is a Thanos question, give me a day or two and I will get back to you on this. My feeling based on years of experience is that brushing without generating heat is better, but the science is beyond me. I know we have done a bunch of experiments in the lab brushing with different brushes hand and roto and at different temps but I have not tried to decode the results. Stay tuned, I know we will have an answer for you.

 

@ atomicman
 

Yes, there are many advantages to using the Fiberlene sheets.

 

One, like you said, is that it is cleaner, more uniform and cuts down on scraping. Another very important one is that it protects the base from direct contact with the heat of the iron, ie. when you iron the very hard waxes that need a (that's right) a hot iron. I have also seen xc techs use it when they iron fluoro powders because it stops the powder from sublimating.
 
Good to find a CMAC man here! 

 

Alan is a good friend of mine and his team has been with us since the beginning (like 17 years or so); many thanks for your support and please, say hi to Lauba and tell him about the updated website.
 

 

post #50 of 55

Will do! Both my boys raced for Al for about 10 years and my older son help coach the J3's for 2 seasons recently. Al and I currently play a lot of tennis and Tamara are very goodd friends!

 

Here is my older boy free skiing on a pair of Monster 88's and Dominator Wax of course!

 

 

 

Skiing Crystal Iceberg001.jpg

 

 

And Here!  Fastest Run of the day and Yep; Dominator!!!


 

1000

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominator Tom View Post

@ cantunamunch

This is a Thanos question, give me a day or two and I will get back to you on this. My feeling based on years of experience is that brushing without generating heat is better, but the science is beyond me. I know we have done a bunch of experiments in the lab brushing with different brushes hand and roto and at different temps but I have not tried to decode the results. Stay tuned, I know we will have an answer for you.

 

@ atomicman
 

Yes, there are many advantages to using the Fiberlene sheets.

 

One, like you said, is that it is cleaner, more uniform and cuts down on scraping. Another very important one is that it protects the base from direct contact with the heat of the iron, ie. when you iron the very hard waxes that need a (that's right) a hot iron. I have also seen xc techs use it when they iron fluoro powders because it stops the powder from sublimating.
 
Good to find a CMAC man here! 

 

Alan is a good friend of mine and his team has been with us since the beginning (like 17 years or so); many thanks for your support and please, say hi to Lauba and tell him about the updated website.
 

 


Edited by Atomicman - 12/19/12 at 2:44pm
post #51 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post

One natural question that isn't covered in the article:

" Does mechanical polishing (by cork or by polishing pad, for instance) affect or improve long-distance ordering of wax molecules?"

If "Yes" then the next questions become:

"Does brushing affect (either improve or disrupt) long-distance ordering of wax molecules?     Does the effect of a brush on wax molecules depend on the type of brush? For example, does a sharp-tipped bristle brush generally disrupt ordering (so we want to have the ordered wax at maximal hardness before we brush)?   For example, does a soft brush with rounded bristle tips generally have a polishing effect (so we can improve ordering and actually polish the wax -inside- the microgrooves of ski structure)?  "
what a great question cantunamunch...one you've made me think about all day at work;) I'm just going to throw something out there while we wait for a more learned response. what really struck me about dominator's link was how wax in a ski, activated by friction, will behave like a " deck of cards", shuffling off one at a time.

also important to consider of course are the varying levels of friction the ski/wax encounters as a result of speed, humidities, hardness of snow, etc...

then i thought about your question regarding brushing, and of course i realized that brushing a ski also produces friction ( albeit less than skiing on snow...)
harder waxes require different brushes than softer ones. i would theorize that a soft steel brush with sharp tips and light pressure of course, when combined with a harder wax, would have a similar "deck of cards" effect on the wax, but on a smaller scale...in effect making the top "card" smoother, alowing for a smooth
post #52 of 55
sorry, got cut off on that last post. on a crappy phone for the night:(
zenny
post #53 of 55
Atomicman, thanks for posting the picture of your son, looks like Alan Lauba has him skiing strong and solid.
 
@ cantunamunch
 
I called the chemist, this is what I got. (They are the same answers I would have given but it’s always good to double-check with the source)
 
Mechanical polishing is generally used to apply rub on waxes or powders and the objective is to change an uneven rub into an even coating. Mechanical polishing can (and usually does) heat up the rub-on waxes, and “tangle” the deck of cards, but the applied layer is very thin so the cards give off the heat and reorient quickly. They are just a surface treatment so they do not interact much with the wax molecules in the core of the polyethylene.
 
Scraping and hand brushing does not generate enough heat to change the structure of the wax. Rotobrushing can heat up the softer waxes, this is ok if the wax has enough time to reorient, but will give slow skis if it is done right before the start. The problem can be avoided by spraying water on the base to keep it cool, but this is not always possible.
 

Don’t try to “split the atom” with brushes questions, they don’t apply as it would take an atomic clock to measure the difference. The role of the brush is far more important as it regards the ability to remove wax from the structure, generation of static electricity during brushing, and the texture of the wax layer it leaves behind (rough or polished).


Edited by Dominator Tom - 12/20/12 at 1:06pm
post #54 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominator Tom View Post

@ atomicman
 
I called the chemist, this is what I got. (They are the same answers I would have given but it’s always good to double-check with the source)
 
Mechanical polishing is generally used to apply rub on waxes or powders and the objective is to change an uneven rub into an even coating. Mechanical polishing can (and usually does) heat up the rub-on waxes, and “tangle” the deck of cards, but the applied layer is very thin so the cards give off the heat and reorient quickly. They are just a surface treatment so they do not interact much with the wax molecules in the core of the polyethylene.
 
Scraping and hand brushing does not generate enough heat to change the structure of the wax. Rotobrushing can heat up the softer waxes, this is ok if the wax has enough time to reorient, but will give slow skis if it is done right before the start. The problem can be avoided by spraying water on the base to keep it cool, but this is not always possible.
 

Don’t try to “split the atom” with brushes questions, they don’t apply as it would take an atomic clock to measure the difference. The role of the brush is far more important as it regards the ability to remove wax from the structure, generation of static electricity during brushing, and the texture of the wax layer it leaves behind (rough or polished).

   Makes perfect sense, of course. Maybe we (I) were trying to get a little too "geeky" with itrolleyes.gif...

 

 

 zenny

post #55 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by tch View Post
 

Here are a few pics.  After reading, I'm fairly sure it's b/c I'm not scraping enough.  But you tell me. 

Is this a problem?

 

1000

 


 

1000

 

 

Here is what you need to do.

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