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tree skiing in east, and (NH or Sugarloaf or Stowe for 4 day trip)

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 

Hello all,

I'm not sure what the fascination is with tree skiing.  I've been to breckenridge and vail and skiied some glades there, and the terrain was great, and I did love the glades.  However I haven't seen anything comparable in the east, although I'm not really going after tree skiing.  In the east the glades seem to have the trees to close together, or the snow is not in good condition, like it's deep and chunky, so I can't imagine why people want to ski the glades so bad.

 

Is jaypeak some kind of special area, where the tree skiing is different than what I've seen at most resorts?  Maybe there is some good days for this around here?  If there is, I don't think I will have much luck, at least I can't plan to go when there's fresh soft snow to a certian resort to ski glades?  Also I don't have special skis to ski powder, I'd use the volkl sixstar 183s, but I don't see how it'd be pleasurable to ski the glades no matter what skis. Well guess that is my gripe, because I don't get it; skiing trees in the east just hasn't seemed so good.  It would be cool to add some variety, and changing up the terrain is cool, but this doesn't seem the place to do it with tree skiing.  The above the tree line skiing at sugarloaf looks nice, and I always wanted to ski the slides at whiteface, but they're always closed.  Something like the slides is my favorite type of terrain, cool looking, manageble, but fairly difficult.

 

I'm an expert level skier, and started up again after a few years.  It seems to me shorter turns seemed more forced so I prefer skiing fast with longer turns anyways, but I guess that's just my own preference, unless there's something I'm missing with slalom turns. 

 

 

I'm planning a trip for some friends/family, so I will have to take that into consideration, but I'm looking at the following:

 

1) sugarloaf - looks to be the best mountain in the east, but I haven't skied it

2) somewhere in NH - are these resorts totally comparble to VT?  looking around Cannon looks good, but I just don't know enough about NH to make a decision

3) stowe - looks nice, and not as far away for me as sugarloaf, so I'm leaning towards it (I really want to try sugarloaf; mountain looks awesome), but this looks like a good compromise

4) sugarbush/mad river glen - never been to mad river glen, and i could check it out, and sugarloaf seems like it would keep everyone happy.  I did want to try something new though!

 

 

my opinions and favorites:

 

1) whiteface, gotta love the ice and steeper terrain, it's all icy anyways, why not go with longer runs and more ice??

2) sugarbush, pico, stratton (loved the nice wide groomed trails, best groomed trails imo), killington (just have to find the right spots, but some things I don't like - lack of vertical, can be crowded)

3) hunter (catskills are nice), gore (when stuff is open), okemo (lacks steepness), mount snow (seemed small), bromley (narrow) hickory, west ny mountains (KB)

post #2 of 21

Let me first say that everything below is strictly my opinion, so others are free to, and likely to, disagree.  I have skied pretty much all of these places so here is my take....

 

1. Sugarloaf is hardly the best mountain in the east.  It's a nice mountain with fun terrain, but off the top of my head I would much prefer places such as (in no particular order) Sugarbush, Stowe, Jay Peak, Smuggler's Notch, MRG, Saddleback.

 

2. I prefer VT mountains over NH mountains as I am sure you have figured out from my list above.  But there are some good choices depending on what you are looking for.  Cannon has some good, expert terrain and the prices can't be beat.  No frills at Cannon, but I don't care for such things anyway.  It can get rather windy and cold however.  Loon has some nice terrain especially if there are some kids or less experienced skiers coming along.  There is enough to keep experts happy too, and Cannon is 15 minutes down the road if you get bored at Loon.  Plus, the town of Lincoln has some good restaurants and plenty of lodging options.  It can be a zoo on weekends though, but the South Peak expansion has eased crowds a little bit in recent years.  Bretton Woods and Waterville Valley are nice too.

 

3.  Northern Vermont is where I do most of my skiing.  Burlington is my winter base camp and I ski the surrounding resorts.  Stowe has a good variety of terrain with a lot fun hike-to "sidecountry" stuff. The mountain gets better natural snow than a lot of other northeast resorts and the town of Stowe is quite nice, plus it is only about a 30 minute drive to Burlington.  Stowe can be a bit pricy however, which prevents me from skiing there often as I prefer other nearby alternatives.

 

4.  MRG is awesome, but if you aren't into skiing trees and if your group has a mix of abilities/small children, it may not be the best place for a family ski trip. Sugarbush certainly does have something to keep everyone happy.  Big mountain, lots of trails and lifts, good terrain for all abilities, bumps, trees, groomers.  Some good lodging options.  Plus its close enough to MRG for the experts in your group to make a little side trip.

post #3 of 21
Thread Starter 

thanks.  I guess everyone's opinions will be different.  I was looking at some information on sugarloaf, and to me it looked like the closest mountain to whiteface, but with more and wider trails.  Since I think whiteface is the best mountain I've been to so far in the east (by a fair margin), I figure sugarloaf may be the best mountain for skiing.

 

I'm not against tree skiing, I just think it's sucked where I've been to in the east.  I did see some videos and pictures of mad river glen tree skiing, and it did look like awesome terrain.  Maybe they do have much better glades.

 

I'd like to try something new so stowe sounds like a good mix, a nice town and good skiing, never been there, and not 6 hours away. 

post #4 of 21

My ski club has run a trip to Sugarloaf for 17 years straight. We always go Sunday to Friday for a great deal.

There is a lot of ski in ski out terrain all over the mountain, mostly condos. Once there, they have a second to none

free shuttle service to bring you to restaurants, shoppes, nightclubs, grocery store, indoor pool and sports complex, etc.

It is a big mountain and easy to get around as all trails basically come down to one base area. The above tree

line skiing while interesting and fairly easy to access is not regularly open and a bit of a let down if you are really

looking forward to it. The tree skiing mainly consists of Brackett Basin which is good but on the upper skill level.

There are others but many are not labeled at all. You either have to keep you eyes peeled for tracks leading into the

woods or be active in meeting and talking to locals/regulars.

Sugarloaf also has an excellent ski instructor program which makes it a great family vacation resort.

I like Sugarloaf as a ski area very much, and Saddleback is only 1 hour and a few minutes away to try something else.

Saddleback has tree skiing which rivals Jay Peak, but not a lot of amenities at this time.

Not sure I have answered your question. Seems like you are leaning to Stowe which is also a good choice but as

someone already mentioned, more expensive.   

In closing I will say that Sugarloaf is the closest example of a western mountain out east.


Edited by JSLincks - 12/15/12 at 1:37pm
post #5 of 21

I'm not sure what sort of terrain you're looking for here?

 

Stowe gets a lot of natural snow during a typical year.  They have some really nice cruisers, and a fair number of bump runs.  There is a lot of side-country terrain available, but it's all tree skiing.  They have terrain from easy to really steep.

 

Sugarloaf is a fun mountain as well.  I feel that their fall line isn't as consistent as it is at Stowe.  i.e., at Stowe, I feel like I'm skiing the entire way down, at Sugarloaf, I feel like I'm just "cruising" for the lower part of the mountain.  The snowfields at Sugarloaf aren't open all that often; I've been to Sugarloaf a fair number of times, and the snowfields haven't usually been open.

 

NH areas don't get as much snow as the VT areas do.  If you're looking for challenge in NH, the short list is Wildcat and Cannon, but I don't think either one is that difficult.  Both have issues with the wind, so conditions at both can be very hit or miss.

 

Tree skiing in Vermont is known for its tight trees.  Using Volkl 6*'s isn't making your life any easier; most people who ski the trees are on something wide to float over the stuff that lurks underneath.  The appeal of tree skiing is that the snow stays fresher in there, but you sound like the ice doesn't bother you, so...  If you don't like it, you don't like it.

post #6 of 21

As someone who grew up in Maine, I have skied all major areas in Maine and New Hampshire as well as Mt Snow, Sugarbush, Stowe and Jay Peak in VT and Hunter In New York. I like Saddleback best in Maine, Wildcat In NH and Stowe and Jay best in Vt.

Over all of all the Northeast areas I've been to I like Jay the best and yes the glade skiing is great there.

Worst is Bretton Woods in NH because it is so flat and Hunter in NY, horrible vibe.

Just my opinions.

Eric

post #7 of 21

Ok, you don't really say when you want to schedule this ski trip, so that will matter if you really want to ski trees. You also sound very conflicted about skiing trees, so I'll address that part of your post mostly.

 

First, no insult intended, but you say you're an expert, yet you admit you have no short turn; soooo, I'd say you might want to reevaluate your level in relation to tree skiing.

For skiing trees you absolutely need short turns; you need to be dead on with where you can put your body and skis and able to stop on a dime. To practice, get good in bumps. It's not necessary to be an expert zipper line bumper. You just need to be able to fluidly navigate bumps and be able to stop on a dime anywhere on a bump or trough, no matter how steep, no matter how icy. Once you have short turns and bumps down, venture into easy trees and go slow. The key is to look at the spaces between the trees in order to ski the spaces between, if you look at the trees, you'll head right into the tree, so again look at the spaces only. Look ahead, be dynamic, as soon as you pass the tree be ready to turn around the next tree into the next space. when you are first starting go slow and stop after each successful turn around a tree, collect yourself and proceed. As you get more proficient, you can link turns and pick up speed. Remove your pole straps, wear a helmet and goggles. Skiing trees in the east can be immensely rewarding, I love it more than any other aspect of skiing. It's a skill that needs developing.

 

MRG has some nice learner trees off the double, actually between the double and single char.  Stowe has some learner trees off lower National and Chin clip. Sugarbush, over of the Mt Ellen side has some easy trees. 

post #8 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRUFFY View Post

Ok, you don't really say when you want to schedule this ski trip, so that will matter if you really want to ski trees. You also sound very conflicted about skiing trees, so I'll address that part of your post mostly.

 

First, no insult intended, but you say you're an expert, yet you admit you have no short turn; soooo, I'd say you might want to reevaluate your level in relation to tree skiing.

For skiing trees you absolutely need short turns; you need to be dead on with where you can put your body and skis and able to stop on a dime. To practice, get good in bumps. It's not necessary to be an expert zipper line bumper. You just need to be able to fluidly navigate bumps and be able to stop on a dime anywhere on a bump or trough, no matter how steep, no matter how icy. Once you have short turns and bumps down, venture into easy trees and go slow. The key is to look at the spaces between the trees in order to ski the spaces between, if you look at the trees, you'll head right into the tree, so again look at the spaces only. Look ahead, be dynamic, as soon as you pass the tree be ready to turn around the next tree into the next space. when you are first starting go slow and stop after each successful turn around a tree, collect yourself and proceed. As you get more proficient, you can link turns and pick up speed. Remove your pole straps, wear a helmet and goggles. Skiing trees in the east can be immensely rewarding, I love it more than any other aspect of skiing. It's a skill that needs developing.

 

MRG has some nice learner trees off the double, actually between the double and single char.  Stowe has some learner trees off lower National and Chin clip. Sugarbush, over of the Mt Ellen side has some easy trees. 

I totally agree! I love the runs I do on the groomed and the steep in the morning...but I live for the runs I do afterwards in the bumps and the treesyahoo.gif

post #9 of 21
Thread Starter 

I can make short turns.  I don't like short turns as much because they feel forced, and if I ski raced I'd prefer downhill races.  It doesn't seem natural to me to make short turns when you could be making wider smoother turns.  Although I do practice short turns, hop turns, and I could ski real expert terrain fine if I wanted to, but it's not worth the risk to me.  I'm getting older, so i just take it easy.   There isn't really anything crazy in the east for the most part anyways (as far as I can tell), not to say the skiing isn't awesome.  I like the mountains around here just as much as I did when I went out west.

 

Maybe mad river glen and jay peak will have better tree skiing than I've seen around here.  Everyone likes different things, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks the glades aren't good in the mountains I listed.  I could see if there was some better conditions, and certain glades at certain areas might have good sections, where the trees aren't super close together, but in the mountains I've listed, I don't see how skiing in the woods would be someone's cup of tea.

 

edit: gonna try to setup something at Stowe, looks like it's good all around. 

 

got to try jay peak, mad river glen, sugarloaf, and saddleback it looks like!  hopefully one of them will knock whiteface off my best mountain in the east list : P


Edited by like2ski123 - 12/15/12 at 8:55pm
post #10 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRUFFY View Post

Ok, you don't really say when you want to schedule this ski trip, so that will matter if you really want to ski trees. You also sound very conflicted about skiing trees, so I'll address that part of your post mostly.

 

First, no insult intended, but you say you're an expert, yet you admit you have no short turn; soooo, I'd say you might want to reevaluate your level in relation to tree skiing.

For skiing trees you absolutely need short turns; you need to be dead on with where you can put your body and skis and able to stop on a dime. To practice, get good in bumps. It's not necessary to be an expert zipper line bumper. You just need to be able to fluidly navigate bumps and be able to stop on a dime anywhere on a bump or trough, no matter how steep, no matter how icy. Once you have short turns and bumps down, venture into easy trees and go slow. The key is to look at the spaces between the trees in order to ski the spaces between, if you look at the trees, you'll head right into the tree, so again look at the spaces only. Look ahead, be dynamic, as soon as you pass the tree be ready to turn around the next tree into the next space. when you are first starting go slow and stop after each successful turn around a tree, collect yourself and proceed. As you get more proficient, you can link turns and pick up speed. Remove your pole straps, wear a helmet and goggles. Skiing trees in the east can be immensely rewarding, I love it more than any other aspect of skiing. It's a skill that needs developing.

 

MRG has some nice learner trees off the double, actually between the double and single char.  Stowe has some learner trees off lower National and Chin clip. Sugarbush, over of the Mt Ellen side has some easy trees. 

I'm going to respectfully disagree to a point. Skiing moguls and bumps in the trees, which are always there, are sooo much easier than on an open expert slope. Moguls in the trees can not form in quite the same way. The troughs are not AS DEFINED and the backside of the bumps ARE STEEP since there is a tree in the way. You can use this to your advantage. When legs are tiring, just COMPLETE YOUR TURN. You will turn up a steep backside of a mogul and slow to a stop to catch your breath. Scruffy is right on the point, do not look at tree. Look at openings between tree.

post #11 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSLincks View Post

I'm going to respectfully disagree to a point. Skiing moguls and bumps in the trees, which are always there, are sooo much easier than on an open expert slope. Moguls in the trees can not form in quite the same way. The troughs are not AS DEFINED and the backside of the bumps ARE STEEP since there is a tree in the way. You can use this to your advantage. When legs are tiring, just COMPLETE YOUR TURN. You will turn up a steep backside of a mogul and slow to a stop to catch your breath. Scruffy is right on the point, do not look at tree. Look at openings between tree.


I agree with you 100%. My point about moguls is a training ground.

post #12 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by like2ski123 View Post

I can make short turns.  I don't like short turns as much because they feel forced, and if I ski raced I'd prefer downhill races.  It doesn't seem natural to me to make short turns when you could be making wider smoother turns.  Although I do practice short turns, hop turns, and I could ski real expert terrain fine if I wanted to, but it's not worth the risk to me.  I'm getting older, so i just take it easy.   There isn't really anything crazy in the east for the most part anyways (as far as I can tell), not to say the skiing isn't awesome.  I like the mountains around here just as much as I did when I went out west.

 

Maybe mad river glen and jay peak will have better tree skiing than I've seen around here.  Everyone likes different things, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks the glades aren't good in the mountains I listed.  I could see if there was some better conditions, and certain glades at certain areas might have good sections, where the trees aren't super close together, but in the mountains I've listed, I don't see how skiing in the woods would be someone's cup of tea.

 

edit: gonna try to setup something at Stowe, looks like it's good all around. 

 

got to try jay peak, mad river glen, sugarloaf, and saddleback it looks like!  hopefully one of them will knock whiteface off my best mountain in the east list : P


If your short turns feel forced then there is something to work on there, work on your weaknesses to become a better skier. Your six stars are not helping you with short turns BTW.  A true expert moves fluidly between any turn shape, any snow condition on any slope and makes it look like they are not even trying. 

 

If you only want to do GS turns, that's your prerogative, it's your dance with the mountains, make it your own. However, you seem to be intrigued, at least, about tree skiing in the east, otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up. When you say things like :

" I could see if there was some better conditions, and certain glades at certain areas might have good sections, where the trees aren't super close together, but in the mountains I've listed, I don't see how skiing in the woods would be someone's cup of tea."

it's through your own filter from your own experiences, or lack of, and your own fears ( fears of getting hurt, too old ( as you said), etc ) .

 

 Yet you know there are many who can ski those tight trees and relish the experience. You also have to know, there are secret tree runs that locals guard like gold. The only way for you to really understand is to become one of those experts tree skiers yourself. Or not, if that's what you choose. But understand if you choose not em"bark" on that journey,  that there is nirvana that only the well initiated are obtaining.    

post #13 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRUFFY View Post


The only way for you to really understand is to become one of those experts _________ (insert your favorite type) skiers yourself. Or not, if that's what you choose. But understand if you choose not em"bark" on that journey,  that there is nirvana that only the well initiated are obtaining.    

One of the things I have liked most about skiing is that it has plenty of nirvanas available - pure carving, trees, moguls, steeps, powder, SL racing, park, etc. etc. and I enjoy the journey of trying to add more of them to my portfolio. But I try to be non judgmental about the interests of others. If we all liked exactly the same things, my favorite runs would all be jammed all the time.

post #14 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

One of the things I have liked most about skiing is that it has plenty of nirvanas available - pure carving, trees, moguls, steeps, powder, SL racing, park, etc. etc. and I enjoy the journey of trying to add more of them to my portfolio. But I try to be non judgmental about the interests of others. If we all liked exactly the same things, my favorite runs would all be jammed all the time.


Agreed, and I hope I wasn't coming across as judgmental. My wish is, everyone dance with the mountain on their own terms. Like2ski123 couldn't see the point of tight tree skiing, I was trying simply to help him see the point.

post #15 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

 But I try to be non judgmental about the interests of others. If we all liked exactly the same things, my favorite runs would all be jammed all the time.

vsirin ,  some truth rings in your comment, and got me to chuckle at the same time.

post #16 of 21

A couple of thoughts are running through my head, one, Like2ski123 not understanding the fascination of tree skiing and two, skiers having different interests on the hill brought up by vsirin.

 

My thought for at least the last 15 years or so has been that people formulate a bond or interest in something that they are proficient at. Realizing that I was not a good skier in the 60's or 70's, tells me that my continued interest during those "poor years," was generated by a desire to improve, by seeing others I wanted to emulate on the hill.

 

My personal fascination with tree skiing has to do with an innate sense of adventure. From the mid 80's at Mad River Glen when Paradise was not on the map and there was an allure and a bit of danger (was it legal? / will my lift ticket be revoked?) to today: There are less skiers in the woods, I feel further removed from a ski area almost as if I am on a journey. Once an area has a base, conditions in the woods almost always seem to be better. There is less sun and wind, less of a thaw and freeze cycle and if you are in the middle of a storm ... the woods offer the best visibility and protection, almost like it is not snowing.

I don't know how much longer I'm going to be able to ski the tight trees, I'm getting a bit old, but I do love it. I enjoy the challenge of working my way down through tight spots with all the skills I have developed over the years such as side slips, stutter hops, smears, pillow drops in new snow etc. Narrowly escaping obstacles is exhilarating to me.

I really hope am not convincing groomed slope lovers to venture into the woods, they can be dangerouswink.gif

post #17 of 21

Good thread with lots of good info on trees in the east. Timbuktu at Jay is a phenomenal gladed area. There are some real tight spots as well as some very open areas so you can take not so seasoned woods skiers in there without worrying about having to call in the sled for them. Smugglers Notch has real really good stuff too if you can deal with antiquated lifts. Someone mentioned the time of your trip. I do a week long trip the 2nd week of March which to me is the best time in the Northeast. Prime season prices start to drop and many of the crowds think ski season ends after Feb vacation week. Plus March can be a very snowy month for many of the resorts. Good luck and post about your trip once you get back.

post #18 of 21

kevcinma has got that right. March (unknown to some) is the #1 snowiest month of the year in New England.

February is #2. So March offers some of the best tree skiing. Thumbs up for Timbuktu @ Jay. In fact, I would

say that Jay Peaks mantra is tree skiing for all. Down at lower parts of the mountain you will find tree runs

designed specifically for kids, barely a pitch and wide open. You can also find intermediate woods or single

diamond runs like Timbuktu. They even have some sick narrow and steep tree runs like Staircase Glade or

Deliverance which includes some launch pads made out of 18" cut & stacked logs.

post #19 of 21

Here is another. My opinion, best kept secret in the East. Saddleback Maine.

 

My understanding is the area changed ownership back 4-5 years ago. The previous owner had illusions of granduer wanting to expand the area over the top of Saddleback and down the other side. He ran into strong opposition as the Appalachian Trail runs over the summit on its way to Mount Katahdin.

Not only does the Appalachian Trail Conservancy fight tooth and nail to protect its corridor, there is a rare ecosystem atop Saddleback (a high altitude bog) with plants that only grow there or in a few places in the world. The previous owner finally gave up and sold to an owner who I understand is a  negotiator who works in good faith with state and national agencies.

As a result, there have been many upgrades to the area. A GORGEOUS base lodge, a new lift and MANY tree runs which did not exist before.

I believe all trails at Saddleback are named after fish flies (a popular summer activity in the area) which serve the tree runs well. They have Nightmare Glade, Intimidator Glade, Thrombosis, Dark Wizard Glade to name a few. The crown glory glade of the area has to be Casa Blanca Glade off the summit which is a 44 acre glade. It is so large that as you pole along the top of its entrance, every 100 feet or so the trees have a large piece of plywood nailed to them with a 1, 2, 3 or 4 designating different entrances. As you drop through, the plywood signs repeat 3-4 times so you have a reference to where you are in the glade.

If you pick up a trail map (or download online) you will see plans for 4 more proposed lifts. With that the hope is for restaurants and shoppes to go along with the current condos which would help this area draw more skier visits. For now I am happy to visit this area 2-3 days a year.

post #20 of 21

Easy decision...Go to Sugarloaf, then spend a day (or 2) at Saddleback .  They have gotten 3+ feet of snow this week and its still dumping (they are one of the few places getting all snow).  With Brackett Basin at the loaf and recent glade expansions at Saddleback, it is easily the best 1-2 combo in the NE.  Yes, Stowe and Killington have great trees, but nether offers the vast openness of Brackett, or the close proximity of another AWESOME mountain like Saddleback. 

 

follow the snow...

 

I have worked part time at a ski shop in Philly for 8 years.  I have driven to Sugarloaf 6 of those years.  its 10 hours.  That should say enough.  Sugarloaf is by far my favorite mountain in the NE.  Stowe comes in at 2 and Saddleback at 3.  It is really in peoples best interests to hit the Sugarloaf/Saddleback combo.  they are 40 mins apart and offer Fantastic Skiing and great snow..

 

Also, the SL snowfields are almost always open...in MARCH :)  it all depends when you go.  It takes time for them to fill in

post #21 of 21
Thread Starter 

Thanks for all the replies.  We went up to lake placid on Friday night and skied Saturday and Sunday.  It was 50+ degrees but still good.  I would of loved to have gone to Stowe but it's hard to get people together, and they're expensive.   I'll probably go to Stowe once this winter, and not likely often again due to the price.  My friends getting a group of 8 on March 1st, or so and we're planning going for the weekend at whiteface, since some people rarely ski or haven't and there's stuff to do there, and it's not super expensive.

 

The idea of staying in Burlington is a very good one I think, since it's close to so many nice ski areas.  I was going to go to mad river glen for last weekend, but of course it has to rain nonstop.  I'll probably plan better for staying up there, and ski smugglers notch, sugarbush or madriver glen for the weekends.  It seems like up north the skiing is a bit better, at least that's what I gather (i've only been to sugarbush, and it's my favorite so far in VT).  Back at it after a few years, and probably will make it 15 times or so, next year all time off will be dedicated to skiing : ).

 

So on my todo list is:

 

smugglers notch (really looks nice)

stowe

madriver glen

magic mountain 

sugarloaf

saddleback

 

It sucks that it's rained a lot twice so far, because I'm guessing some of the smaller places just can't get it together without snow.  Hickory in NY would be nice to hit up if we had snow to (which probably has the actual claim to steepest trails in the east).

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