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HELP! BEST 85-100 mm CARVER THAT IS STABLE AT SPEED, YET QUICK IN TREES? - Page 2

post #31 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post

 

I am not sure I get this; the bones have plenty of grip but Bones like to be skied center. You can always have a 1:3 put on them. 

I had a .7/2 on them now - actually the second tune - different shop.  I know I'm not some awesome skier, but maybe my technique just needs alot more work than I thought.  I was up at Alta and my edges just kept releasing on hardpack and I'd find myself trying to rescue myself from a wipeout.  Now I'm just puzzled regarding the bones.  

 

Regarding "quickness in trees" - On playful skis like a rossi S3 or sickle or cochise - they are very fast from turn to turn - and I do fine with that.  But on those bones, I've struggled in tight spots....hmmmm.

post #32 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttinski View Post

Kastle's MX line has perfected the old school conundrum, a ski that is floppy soft for the bumps/deep, yet damp and stable on the hard stuff.

 

At 5'11" 250# my MX98 184s are a bit underpowered for me at mach speeds, but they make a fine tight radius turn upon demand at almost any speed.

 

I'd think the Bones would hold on the firm stuff just fine, my Bodacious 186 work quite well on the slick hardpack.  They won't cut rails but the design is more of a surfy slarve style anyway.  

 

Last year I surrendered the idea of every turn making perfect rails, and found myself relaxing as my skis drift a bit on the boilerplate and having fun to boot.

 

If your heart is set on carving performance with tight capabilities the MX is a good bet but the Experience 98 looks very interesting(in a good way).

 

I cannot remember ever riding a pair of Rossis that I had fun on, but the new wave designs are a new ball game.  I hope to demo some this year.

 

I hear you on the "surfy, slarvy" style - I love the cochise for that as well.  Just looking to get some help from the skis on hardpack.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post

I own the MX88, the FX94, and the BMX98. (Yeah, I know...rolleyes.gif) IMO the BMX98 will be the best for trees, even at your size; fairly beefy ski even if all wood and early rise. The FX94 is a close second, not as fluid but lighter and a bit quicker, more fun. The MX88, no. The 178's tail is just decent in the trees, the 188 would be, uh, taxing. I personally like the Mantra better for that, assuming softer snow. And if you were on a 178, not sure the loss on the slope would justify the gain in the trees. Unless you are a fairly methodical, moderate speed skier, in which case the 178 might work.  

 

Now out on the slopes, different story. MX88 a clear winnah, especially for big guys, the FX94 also up there, very different feel, livelier and more up on the surface scalpel than through things knife. (Kastle doesn't make axes. wink.gif ) The BMX IMO is far better on firm than most people think, but that may reflect my lighter weight (165), and my criteria, which are as much about sensitivity and predictability of edges than absolute grip. Eg, how well a ski loses its grip may be more relevant than well how it holds it. YMMV. It also will handle heavy crud better than the FX, not as well as the MX. Bumps, a wash, although each has its own characteristic approach it likes.

 

These are three great skis, each among the best in its class. But they are more different than you'd think from the same brand.

 

Meanwhile, god help me, I cannot help but feel that the Bonafide is a better compromise for you than any of the Kastles. Just give the edges a 1/3 and get them up more. My .02...

 

I seriously wonder if my problem is simply being tentative on turns - It seems like when you slip, you hesitate to trust the ski and like you said, maybe if I "get them up more" on edge - it would help my grip.  Trust the ski.  That may not help me in tight spots but certainly with edge grip.  Maybe instead of a better ski, I just need a good lesson.  I'm not a slouch, but who couldn't use a good tune-up, right?

 

Sounds like my list is getting rounded out.  Thanks guys.  Much appreciated...

post #33 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeebum View Post

.  

 

Regarding "quickness in trees" - On playful skis like a rossi S3 or sickle or cochise - they are very fast from turn to turn - and I do fine with that.  But on those bones, I've struggled in tight spots....hmmmm.

Interesting ,first time I've heard the Cochise described as 'playful' and in the same grouping as the S3 and Sickle. Given you found it very fast turn to turn  (I agree BTW) and that's what you want did you find the Cochise unstable at speed or is it just too wide to be the carver you're looking for. Being flat they certainly don't have that 'pop' from turn to turn on groomers

post #34 of 44
Thread Starter 

I was skiing the bonafides last week and just for kicks demoed a nordica hell and back - the grip difference was night and day.  And that was right after what I thought was a decent tune on the blizzards.  That is what really made me question the edge grip of the bonafides.  Now stability at speeds (around 35-45 mph) was the exact opposite...

post #35 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Castle Dave View Post

Interesting ,first time I've heard the Cochise described as 'playful' and in the same grouping as the S3 and Sickle. Given you found it very fast turn to turn  (I agree BTW) and that's what you want did you find the Cochise unstable at speed or is it just too wide to be the carver you're looking for. Being flat they certainly don't have that 'pop' from turn to turn on groomers

Yes (for my size - 6'1" 220 -  I found the 185 cochise very playful.  Love that ski in new snow.  The helldorado 193 - or Katana, etc I find "not playful" - but duh, right?    In new snow - love the cochise, and they are very stable at speed, but I found them to be the same as you noted on groomers - not that they are designed to be anything more than slarvy.  That's why I bought the bones - hoping for blizzard stability and quickness, but with better grip...

post #36 of 44
Probably today's incarnation of the Fischer Watea 9x. Softer longitudinally, stiff torsionally, lightweight. So, basically a lighter ski that uses carbon for torsional stiffness for edge grip but softer to easily bend into the turn you need. Might be too soft for your weight though.

A wailer 99/105 is a good suggestion. So are the Nordicas (think they have carbon?).
post #37 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeebum View Post

 

I hear you on the "surfy, slarvy" style - I love the cochise for that as well.  Just looking to get some help from the skis on hardpack.

 

 

I love the Cochise, but they are not surfy.  Maybe a little playful because you can pivot them and throw them sideways so easily, but not to the degree that I would call them that first, especially compared to an S7.  They were clearly built for charging.

post #38 of 44

OK, we're getting a rather strange mix of ski's referenced.

 

Sickle (did you mean Scimitar), S3, cochise, bones.  I am hearing two things. 1- not quick, 2 not enough grip; what do these two things have in common? I am guessing non-committing to the turn which can happen in the trees for sure.  but hey, I am not an instructor. I don't know if this is the case but I've been there myself.

post #39 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post

OK, we're getting a rather strange mix of ski's referenced.

Sickle (did you mean Scimitar), S3, cochise, bones.  I am hearing two things. 1- not quick, 2 not enough grip; what do these two things have in common? I am guessing non-committing to the turn which can happen in the trees for sure.  but hey, I am not an instructor. I don't know if this is the case but I've been there myself.

I'm certain I've got tons to learn in my skiing. I have no ego and am grateful for ANY advice regarding skis OR the skier. Skiing is like golf sometimes - always searching for the putter that sinks the most putts when it's technique that sucks. smile.gif I have gleaned what I can/need from this topic and I think I'll close it unless there are any parting thoughts. Thanks for the help and for keeping it on point and non-judgmental. Another foot fell at alta last night. Bases are getting deep. Enjoy the skiing folks.

Regards,

Skeebum
post #40 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeebum View Post

that is not the response I was hoping for...good grief, I was hoping some ski sage had the answer... oh well.

 

Am I alone in feeling like the bonafide lacked quite a bit in edge grip on hardpack??  I know the tune was good, too.  I was really hoping the bonafide was the answer, but compared to the volkls or nordica hell and back that I tested back to back to back, I felt like I couldn't go into a turn full board and trust the edges - cause they slipped all too often.  No problem on soft groomers, but if the piste hardened up, I was forced into some tentative skiing form.  

 

Pretty much. The grip on hardpack is very good for a ski this size and almost every review of the ski lauds it's excellent grip.  If you want something significantly grippier, you will want to go with a narrower ski (that still has a beefy build).

 

Basically you can't get a ski that grippier, more stable (or as stable) and quicker in trees. Quickness in soft snow has little to do with side cut and everything to do with flex, softer is quicker, and less stable. Because stability in a ski usually means: doesn't do anything quickly. 

 

Once you get 1cm or so less width for more grip, and keep the race inspired build for grip and stability, you are on something that is not going to be quick or liively in the soft snow. Basically you are back where you started with a fat carver like the RTM84. 

 

If you still want something quick in trees, then keep it narrow and go with a more laid back flexing ski, Blizzy 8.5 TI, Head Rev 85, ipeak 84, etc... 

post #41 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeebum View Post

I was skiing the bonafides last week and just for kicks demoed a nordica hell and back - the grip difference was night and day.  And that was right after what I thought was a decent tune on the blizzards.  That is what really made me question the edge grip of the bonafides.  Now stability at speeds (around 35-45 mph) was the exact opposite...

 

Most likely, you are not ballance dove the middle of the ski not "skiing them centered". Rockered skis must to be skied centered on hardpack. If you don't then you end up with a the wheelie effect.  The Bone has a very large very rockered tip and a rockered tail. The helln'back has a rockered tip but flat tail. You are probabbly either too far forward, or more likely, in the back seat,. the bones' tail will not let you ride on the tail as well as the hell'nback if you are in the back seat. 

post #42 of 44

My vote would be the Elan Amphibio 88xti.  One of the most versatile skis I have ever been on. Great grip on hard snow (2 sheets of metal), plenty of energy, very good off-piste flex (soft in the tip and tail) and super stable.  Just a fun ski.

 

Here is me skiing it a couple of days ago: about 4 inches of crud over top of rain-infused boilerplate and some rock-hard bumps.  Overall, good conditions where it wasn't scrubbed out (you can see me being pretty tentative in that groomer clip).  Plus, only been on the snow for a few hours this season! 

 

post #43 of 44

If you want something that is a close to a true carver in an all-mountain ski, here are some that come to mind:

 

Elan Amphibio 88xti (described in my last post)

Kastle MX88 (a little stiff as a carver for lighter guy like me)

Kastle FX94 (actually a little softer, I can get more out of it than the MX88

Nordica Steadfast (very powerful, even though it lacks metal)

Rossignol E88 (really snappy)

Blizzard 8.5ti (gotta work this ski more)

 

I wouldn't recommend stuff like the Hell n' Back, BMX98, Mantra, and Bonafide to people looking for carving performance.  For me, they don't pass the carver test.  Yes, they have plenty of edge grip and are stable at speed, but a carver needs more than that.  It isn't about how fast you can ski, or if you are holding vs. sliding on ice.   A true carver needs powerful turn entry, a strong tip that really pulls the skier in with early engagement, muscular grip mid-turn, and plenty of power in the tail for release.  You can see on that 88xti vid that I get released off the snow a couple of times, even though I am skiing tentatively due to the conditions and low light.  Carvers do that with minimal effort, and you can really amplify it if you are skiing them aggressively and getting down the fall line with early edge angles.  Basically, a real carver should mimic a race ski when on edge: surely not as aggressive, but similar feel.  Think of a consumer race ski as a BMW M-series coupe: a super high performance car that is a somewhat OK daily driver. The all-mountain frontside skis are basically more like a BMW 328i X-drive: not as much raw horsepower, but still a ton of fun to drive, with a real sports car pedigree.  Get into the high 90's/low 100's, and for me, they feel more akin to a BMW 5-series: sporty for an SUV, but an SUV nonetheless.  Nobody is going to claim it handles as well as a 328i on a twisty canyon road. I think the X5 out-sells the 328i though in many markets, lots of people would rather own one over a 3-series, but it won't make many "best driver's car" lists.  

post #44 of 44
Thread Starter 
Dawg - I know this is an old thread but thanks for the recommendation of the 88xti. I own it now. Ski blew me away. I skied many others it this category that are perhaps more "hyped" but for me I was floored by this ski. I font think i would have considered it without your bringing it up. Felt "light" but skied so powerful. Blasted crud. Super damp. Very stable. No speed limit. Great grip. Wonderful ski. And for what it's worth I sold an mx88 178 and bought the 88xti 186. No regrets at all. Thanks man.
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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › HELP! BEST 85-100 mm CARVER THAT IS STABLE AT SPEED, YET QUICK IN TREES?