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Weight distribution in a turn - Page 2

post #31 of 53

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQfBYjsiFY8  For a different approach to pow, with modern freeride shapes.  Again, for the more shaped turns, outside ski dominant, plus a couple 0/100 turns thrown in.  A few shorter turns that are about 95/5 at the start, roughly 2/3d way thru Pollard's segment.  Stances pretty narrow.  It ain't just the racers, or the guided clients, and Pollard is pretty darn two-footed as these things go.

post #32 of 53
Thread Starter 

Lots of very good technical stuff here for me to chew on. I ski about 10-15 days/yr. (One goal is to at least break even on my Mammoth season pass) I love everything, but being able to make GS turns well is my constant aspiration. Actually I strive to move my COM outside my skis for excitement, being too poor to ski endless power fields and too old and chicken to hug cliffs smile.gif. The kind of skiing Ligety does in the video above is the model for me, and I am worrying that I am doing or not doing things that fundamentally prevent me from skiing like that even if I were as athletic, young and talented.

 

Here is a clip of my skiing a couple years ago. I ski better now but overall still the same way..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDk5Jf8UNF4&feature=plcp

 

The turns seem artificially energetic, i.e. inefficient, but not as powerful as I desire. The video shows I was more two-footed than my own impression, it seems. Is what to do with the inside leg or weight distribution the thing to start looking at in my ski adventure or am I limited by something more fundamental than that?

 

CTKooK: Assuming you are a strong intermediate, most of the work you will do to progress as a skier will have you developing a more-active inside ski, where needed, as a collateral benefit, anyway.

 

Cool! So far all I consciously do with the inside ski is to pull it back under me as told elsewhere. 


Edited by ChuckT - 12/13/12 at 2:06pm
post #33 of 53
Thread Starter 

Nice, detailed post, Jamt. I have some questions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Regarding the title of this thread I don't really like to put number on things. I might end a turn with 100% on my inside, e.g. OLR or ILE, or I might end the turn with 100% on the outside (dynamic SL turn with weighted release). They are both fine. Similarly I might initiate the turn with 100% on my inside because I needed to make a balance adjustment due to the previous release.

 

OLR with 100% on your inside means you already initiate the new turn at that point - same as the third option?

Is the weighted release just like OLR but with the old inside ski lifted?

 

The weight distribution is much more important to view in time IMO. Bear with me...

 

 

When an edge is engaged in the snow you can divide the force that the edge affects the snow with in two major components.

1. The force component that is tangent to the snow surface. This force is given by the instantaneous turn radius. If you are going straight (or free-fall "straight”) this component does not exist. If you are doing tight SL turns at WC speeds this force is huge. It is proportional to the square of the speed and inversely proportional to the turn radius. This can also be called the centripetal force.

2. The force component perpendicular to the slope. The time average of this component is given by the steepness of the slope and the weight of the skier. If the slope is flat the average is equal to the weight (multiplied with g to be strict - Eh, actually force is weight which is mass mulitplied with g to be geekily anal).

 

Very nice decomposition of the components for visualization

 

Now you may have noticed that I used the term "average". The interesting thing about the second component is how it is distributed in time throughout a turn. In a static "park and ride" turn the size of this force is quite constant and proportional to your weight x cosine(slope angle).

On the other side of the spectrum we have a highly dynamic turn, like a WC SL racer that flies through the transition with very little pressure on the skis and has a short by very intense engagement of the edges. Say for example and simplicity that he has no noticable pressure for 2/3 of the turn and that he has a high but constant pressure during 1/3 of the turn. This means that the second force component will be proportional to 3 x weight x cosine(slope angle) during this 1/3 of the turn.

 

Typically where in the turn does a racer use high and low pressure using the clock face as reference? I understand why you use time, but it is much easier for me while skiing to think spatially rather than temporally.

 

I am guessing from videos that to a large extent, the pressure at the top (12 o'clock) and bottom (6) are lowest on the skis and highest at the apex. Therefore weight distribution at these points doesn't affect the turn shape or dynamic much? But as pressure develops toward the apex, it becomes critical and racers by and large have their weight very predominantly on the outside ski as Skidude72 and CTKook indicated? WC SL racers appear to spend no time at 12 at 6 o'clock.

 

Now if we consider the following facts:

-The steeper it becomes the less is the average of the second force component (due to the cosine(slope angle), if you don't know your trigonometrics you just have to trust me on this one)

-The steeper it becomes the faster we go if we carve

-The faster we go the higher the first force component will be due to higher speed and tighter radius

-The resultant force vector of the combination of the two force components compared to the edge angle is what determines if the edges hold or not.

 

Now this means that to hold an edge in the steeps you either have to increase the edge angle OR increase the second force component (off course the best is to do both).

Up to moderate speeds and steeps and on grippy surfaces it works pretty good to just increase the the edge angles, but pretty soon you will reach a limit, for example:

-in soft snow the resultant force is too much along the snow surface and the ski will break loose because of "shaving"

-On ice the ski can very easily break out and skid.

-If you are going very fast the edge angle is larger than what you can handle (read hip to the snow angles)

 

Yes, nice and clear

 

Now, it easy to realize that if the second force is larger the edge hold will be better. If we take the example with the WC racer above it is like making the force pushing the skis down into the snow three times larger.

 

I understand the first part but the only way I can think of to increase this second force component, and only possible for a brief moment, is to push or stomp on the ski. But doing so will likely upset balance or launch me somewhere I don't want to be by the same but opposite impulse from the snow surface to the ski which would defeat the purpose of increasing edge hold. If you consider the skier as a point object then all the dynamic of the turn parallel to the slope only affect the first force component. Changing the second would require dynamic perpendicular to the slope like pushing the COM up, dropping down, or retracting the legs - all of which are possible but only the first option increases ski pressure. Do racers push their COM up? Or is it indeed a NO NO as some people very strongly say?

 

So, the core of this is simply, that if you want your edges to hold under tricky circumstances you need to have more dynamics in your skiing, i.e. a short but intense edge engagement followed by a longer "float" with very little pressure.

 

Where and how? This is of much practical interest to me because I flail badly when the combo is steep, smooth and icy

 

How you get the dynamics is a whole new subject, but some examples are:

-Old school push edge set where you push down on you edges short and abruptly with muscular effort to get a float into the next turn

-Modern SL turns where you float through transition, delay the edge set by angulation instead of pushing, set the edges by "landing" with more or less extended legs. Continue increased edge angles and counter until the vaulting effect starts to throw you upwards and into the next turn. Retract at exactly the right moment to get a float into the next turn.

-A longer GS turn where the float is longer so that the body is almost upright in the middle of the transition, but there is still a float similarly to the SL turn.

 

A related subject is how the distribution of the second force component affects your speed, applicable both in mogul skiing and gate racing, but that is also another subject. It is relatively easy to learn how to hold an edge, but to do that and not loose you speed in the gates is what is really difficult.

 

I will be very happy for now just to hold an edge and not skid

I look forward to your answers and comments. Thanks.

post #34 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckT View Post

Nice, detailed post, Jamt. I have some questions...

I look forward to your answers and comments. Thanks.

  Watched your video...do you receive coaching/instruction at all? Just curious...

 

  zenny

post #35 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

  Watched your video...do you receive coaching/instruction at all? Just curious...

 

  zenny

I learn entirely from books, videos, and internet discussions. I posted videos and some people were kind enough to critique and made suggestions. But other than my very first day on skis years ago, I never had any in-person interaction with any instructors or coaches. Not that I don't think personal instruction is useful, it just that I think I learn better by reading, thinking, and doing experiments, a process that would require much more time than a ski lesson here and there. Skiing has turned out to be an intellectual exercise for me almost as much as the physical exercise it really is.

 

Actually, I can go back and find evidence of my skiing evolution here on Epic. I started a thread asking questions and got slammed by a few who suspected I was doing e-marketing for a particular school or something along that line. (Some of that sentiment apparently still persists) I just liked their skiing style and their structured, substantive and specific explanation of skiing. Their rigid attitude and internet personality make me feel uncomfortable, but I am grateful to them for helping me go from getting bruises falling off the chair lifts to being able to roam around the mountain with a big grin.

post #36 of 53
chuck t...i've been skiing for 36 yrs., and racing for almost half that...one thing i know is that its beneficial being open to different schools of thought;) i also know, however, that it's even more important to have someone knowledgeable observing/providing feedback to you...on the hill. is there a masters program available near you? ski instruction? i just fear that your trying to be a little too cerebral aboit skiing. after all, skiing is ulti
atley an activity (as in physical)...you can learn the mental aspects along the way, imho:))
post #37 of 53
Thread Starter 

zenny, I appreciate your thoughts. My home mountain, Mammoth, is five hours away from home. The local SoCal resorts are just too crowded these days. I don't get to ski very much, 10-15 days a year now, but like most people here I am passionate about skiing. With luck, I will be able to ski for many years to come and continue to make progress. It's the journey as much as the destination that is fun.

post #38 of 53

Response in blue

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckT View Post

 

Regarding the title of this thread I don't really like to put number on things. I might end a turn with 100% on my inside, e.g. OLR or ILE, or I might end the turn with 100% on the outside (dynamic SL turn with weighted release). They are both fine. Similarly I might initiate the turn with 100% on my inside because I needed to make a balance adjustment due to the previous release.

 

OLR with 100% on your inside means you already initiate the new turn at that point - same as the third option?

Is the weighted release just like OLR but with the old inside ski lifted?

Only if the CoM does not go up. If you unweight by "vaulting" the CoM will go up and you will we weightless for a while, when the weight comes back it doesn't need to be the same leg.

 

The weight distribution is much more important to view in time IMO. Bear with me...

 

 

When an edge is engaged in the snow you can divide the force that the edge affects the snow with in two major components.

1. The force component that is tangent to the snow surface. This force is given by the instantaneous turn radius. If you are going straight (or free-fall "straight”) this component does not exist. If you are doing tight SL turns at WC speeds this force is huge. It is proportional to the square of the speed and inversely proportional to the turn radius. This can also be called the centripetal force.

2. The force component perpendicular to the slope. The time average of this component is given by the steepness of the slope and the weight of the skier. If the slope is flat the average is equal to the weight (multiplied with g to be strict - Eh, actually force is weight which is mass mulitplied with g to be geekily anal, yes sorry, english is not my language).

 

Very nice decomposition of the components for visualization

 

Now you may have noticed that I used the term "average". The interesting thing about the second component is how it is distributed in time throughout a turn. In a static "park and ride" turn the size of this force is quite constant and proportional to your weight x cosine(slope angle).

On the other side of the spectrum we have a highly dynamic turn, like a WC SL racer that flies through the transition with very little pressure on the skis and has a short by very intense engagement of the edges. Say for example and simplicity that he has no noticable pressure for 2/3 of the turn and that he has a high but constant pressure during 1/3 of the turn. This means that the second force component will be proportional to 3 x weight x cosine(slope angle) during this 1/3 of the turn.

 

Typically where in the turn does a racer use high and low pressure using the clock face as reference? I understand why you use time, but it is much easier for me while skiing to think spatially rather than temporally.

 

I am guessing from videos that to a large extent, the pressure at the top (12 o'clock) and bottom (6) are lowest on the skis and highest at the apex. Therefore weight distribution at these points doesn't affect the turn shape or dynamic much? But as pressure develops toward the apex, it becomes critical and racers by and large have their weight very predominantly on the outside ski as Skidude72 and CTKook indicated? WC SL racers appear to spend no time at 12 at 6 o'clock.

Usually the max force will be somewhere close to the fall line. You want it as early as possible to be fast, but that is very difficult.

 

Now if we consider the following facts:

-The steeper it becomes the less is the average of the second force component (due to the cosine(slope angle), if you don't know your trigonometrics you just have to trust me on this one)

-The steeper it becomes the faster we go if we carve

-The faster we go the higher the first force component will be due to higher speed and tighter radius

-The resultant force vector of the combination of the two force components compared to the edge angle is what determines if the edges hold or not.

 

Now this means that to hold an edge in the steeps you either have to increase the edge angle OR increase the second force component (off course the best is to do both).

Up to moderate speeds and steeps and on grippy surfaces it works pretty good to just increase the the edge angles, but pretty soon you will reach a limit, for example:

-in soft snow the resultant force is too much along the snow surface and the ski will break loose because of "shaving"

-On ice the ski can very easily break out and skid.

-If you are going very fast the edge angle is larger than what you can handle (read hip to the snow angles)

 

Yes, nice and clear

 

Now, it easy to realize that if the second force is larger the edge hold will be better. If we take the example with the WC racer above it is like making the force pushing the skis down into the snow three times larger.

 

I understand the first part but the only way I can think of to increase this second force component, and only possible for a brief moment, is to push or stomp on the ski. But doing so will likely upset balance or launch me somewhere I don't want to be by the same but opposite impulse from the snow surface to the ski which would defeat the purpose of increasing edge hold. If you consider the skier as a point object then all the dynamic of the turn parallel to the slope only affect the first force component. Changing the second would require dynamic perpendicular to the slope like pushing the COM up, dropping down, or retracting the legs - all of which are possible but only the first option increases ski pressure. Do racers push their COM up? Or is it indeed a NO NO as some people very strongly say?

Pushing is a big NO NO, although sometimes you cannot avoid it. 

What you is missing is dynamics. As an example, imagine that you are going fast and you are highly inclinated, with you hip close to the ground i.e. the COM is far inside the turn. You are in a more or less balanced state. If you now angulate more, e.g. with feet/knee and hip, the radius will go down and you have disturbed the balance. The centripetal force from the edge will go below the CoM, and this will start a rotation which brings the CoM upwards. The only thing that can push the CoM upwards is a force acting on the ski, because there are no other upward external forces. The force much be larger than your weight otherwise it cannot push upwards. So, the ski is pushed down into the snow because of the upwards acceleration of the CoM.

The CoM will accelerate upwards also if you push into the turn, but then you have wasted the CoM acceleration early in the turn, and you will skid at the end of the turn if the conditions are tricky. 

Another example, imagine that you are riding a bicycle at speed and someone puts a pump in your front. You will fly up and forward. What force caused the upward movement?

 

 

So, the core of this is simply, that if you want your edges to hold under tricky circumstances you need to have more dynamics in your skiing,i.e. a short but intense edge engagement followed by a longer "float" with very little pressure.

 

Where and how? This is of much practical interest to me because I flail badly when the combo is steep, smooth and icy

See above. In practice some mental ques that are e.g. Flex intensely in transition. Delay edge engagement as long as possible by angulating.

 

There is a bit of strange thing here, delaying edge engagement gives you pressure in the high-C!

The difference here is whether you consider things spatially or temporally.

In the time domain, if you delay engagement, it means that the CoM is going "straighter" (ignoring free-fall) for a longer time. You are going in the same direction, and since you have delayed the engagement the edge angles will be higher which means that the forces will build higher and faster, and thus spatially you have more engagement in the high-C.

In racing this is exactly what you want, a straighter line with tighter turns and better grip.

If you instead maintain a constant level CoM you will engage early in the time domain, but you will not get any big forces in the spatial domain until much later.

When you see a racer that gets passive, this is often what has happened. You need the dynamics to be strong in order to be fast.

 

Below is a video of Marcel who is probably the best in the world at carved dynamic short turns. Notice how much his CoM goes up and down and how much unweighting he is between the turns.

 

How you get the dynamics is a whole new subject, but some examples are:

-Old school push edge set where you push down on you edges short and abruptly with muscular effort to get a float into the next turn

-Modern SL turns where you float through transition, delay the edge set by angulation instead of pushing, set the edges by "landing" with more or less extended legs. Continue increased edge angles and counter until the vaulting effect starts to throw you upwards and into the next turn. Retract at exactly the right moment to get a float into the next turn.

-A longer GS turn where the float is longer so that the body is almost upright in the middle of the transition, but there is still a float similarly to the SL turn.

 

A related subject is how the distribution of the second force component affects your speed, applicable both in mogul skiing and gate racing, but that is also another subject. It is relatively easy to learn how to hold an edge, but to do that and not loose you speed in the gates is what is really difficult.

 

I will be very happy for now just to hold an edge and not skid

post #39 of 53
Thread Starter 

Jamt,

 

You are of course 100% correct about the force pushing the skis down. I made the elementary mistake of oversimplifying the skier into a point body where all the forces would, by definition, go through the COM. Must have got my mind fogged up with the "political/philosophical" banter on the other thread.

 

Thanks,

Chuck

post #40 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckT View Post

....

 

Here is a clip of my skiing a couple years ago. I ski better now but overall still the same way..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDk5Jf8UNF4&feature=plcp

 

... The video shows I was more two-footed than my own impression, it seems. Is what to do with the inside leg or weight distribution the thing to start looking at in my ski adventure or am I limited by something more fundamental than that?...

Re inside leg and weight distribution, this is sort of an example of what I was referring to in another thread when I said that, if someone showed up with this movement pattern, it wouldn't be something I'd try to change.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R5YutN0pnI  Not too different, and pretty good skiers I think, and even with the politics on here this link should be ok.

 

But, look at what your upper body is doing from seconds 3-4 of the youtube clip of you.  Your head is turned to the left, and tilted slightly downhill, and your right shoulder, arm and pole advanced even as you are beginning to lift your LEFT, new inside, ski off the snow.  Your right, outside ski is not fully engaged at all here.  With all this going on, the effect of lifting the inside ski adds to all the "core" juju there to help you, uh, steer out of the turn and kill your carve.  If you had all the other stuff arrayed in more of a "strong inside half" setup, the lifted inside ski, even if it is maybe lifted a bit much, would in fact help lock in the carve instead. 

 

Check what your shoulder and hips in particular are doing relative to those of the two skiers in the linked video.  There, I think you'll find more difference between you and them.  Also, check their heads versus your head.

 

Limitations of video:  this is two years ago, a bit of a double fall line to my eye, a slow internet connection here, etc. 

 

Carving gs-y type turns on mellow groomers is certainly obtainable at 10-15 days/year.  I'd take you down to some steep, sustained greens and work on truly learning to ride an edge.  But, the skate to ski and MTB crosstraining threads on here and elsewhere would be very good for someone in your situation.  In SoCal you can inline skate and MTB roughly 340 days/year, but access to quality skiing is for sure more difficult.  If you are super-focused, you might even consider some specialized crosstraining skate setups.  For GS turn shapes as a focus, I'd also get on as many berms as possible on a MTB for psychological reasons (technique-wise this is actually very different, but can be a similar feeling).

post #41 of 53
i agree with ct in that, lower angle groomed slopes would be much better for working on gs style turns...also, to add further, in your vid, your turns are ended too abrubtly, i'd like to see more angulation before your transfer...this will give you a greater range of lateral movement thru your turn ( on a phone here) allowing a more effective un weight which would enable you to fully use the radius which i think is impt. when learnin carves...imho
post #42 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

 

But, look at what your upper body is doing from seconds 3-4 of the youtube clip of you.  Your head is turned to the left, and tilted slightly downhill, and your right shoulder, arm and pole advanced even as you are beginning to lift your LEFT, new inside, ski off the snow.  Your right, outside ski is not fully engaged at all here.  With all this going on, the effect of lifting the inside ski adds to all the "core" juju there to help you, uh, steer out of the turn and kill your carve.  If you had all the other stuff arrayed in more of a "strong inside half" setup, the lifted inside ski, even if it is maybe lifted a bit much, would in fact help lock in the carve instead. 

 

Check what your shoulder and hips in particular are doing relative to those of the two skiers in the linked video.  There, I think you'll find more difference between you and them.  Also, check their heads versus your head.

 

Got it! Thanks, CT! By the way, saying those two are pretty good skiers is quite an understatement.

 

zenny, thanks for the comment. This is why I stick to my web learning where I can get real experts all over the world to give practical tips as well as solid physics based explanation with video references. One just has to learn to ask the right questions and filter out the smoke and mirror from the good stuff. I can't imagine my chances of getting better training will be higher by walking up to a ski school desk asking for a lesson.

post #43 of 53
gonna add one more thing here...sorta ties in with cts shoulders comment (correct me if i misunderstood ct) proper alignment on the hill leads to good turn shape, early pressure to initiate. in the first few seconds i think you could have more hip angulation, which would produce a stronger stance on the outside and result in less leaning in. but also it would help foster a more countered position. try not to stand on the new outside fully while its still on its uphill edge. i think your slight rotation at the end of your turns is what is "forcing" you to make such a big step with you old outside ski...wink.gif);
post #44 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckT View Post

...This is why I stick to my web learning where I can get real experts all over the world to give practical tips...

The web is a very useful tool, but in real time virtually everyone learns best in a social environment.  We do a pretty good job adjusting up, or down, to the level of our peers.  For mtb, for instance, having a circle to ride with with good technical skills can be really valuable, and is itself a good reason to do things like helping out with private pumptracks, etc.

 

For skiing, one or two weeks of race camp, say, could be invaluable even for someone who typically gets 15 days/year in.

 

Along with the web, one other good source of info is simply learning to look at tracks.  Watch good racers freeski and you will see they seldom leave two evenly matched, equally weighted railroad tracks.  Instead you will see increasing and decreasing cuts. 

 

You can be mindful of this on your own. For instance, if you have a goal of being able to make highly inclinated, GS-y carves, you can find a green with room to roam and do a drill that involves lifting your new inside ski, placing the shovel of this ski on the snow at least as far back as the new outside ski, and with the inside ski shovel slightly tipped to its outside edge.  Then, patiently allow the new outside ski to engage, while keeping the new inside shoulder and hip forward and up.  By the time the middle of your inside ski hits the snow, you will already have decent edge angles in place. 

 

To start, you can do a single turn at a time, and check your tracks upslope to see if you used the ski, or jerked the turn around.  This can both be a way to develop high edge angle carves, and later a good way to make bigger, stable turns in powder.  You will see by your tracks with this drill that the pressure on the inside ski will also naturally vary, from 0 above the fall line to close to 50% before the next transition if you are doing this on mellow terrain.  The drill has been around a long time and has lots of names. 

 

Be aware that in terms of hazards, it is a good way to blow your knee as well if you get back on the tail of either ski -- skiiing is dangerous, you can die, and no one should try any drills just because they read about them on the web.

post #45 of 53
Thread Starter 

^^^ good observation, advice and warning. Though no substitute for good on snow instruction/coaching, web learning with video feedback, questions and answers is not devoid of human interaction. To me it is a compromise. There are at least three very different multi-day programs I want to attend when life permits.

 

One nice thing about the web is that if I don't understand the "instruction" or get anything good out, there is no bad feeling. I imagine I would be unhappy with the costs in both money and time if things don't work out. Considering what I have read, that may be a real possibility for someone with my quirks and interests. Our ski outting is typically a one or two-day weekend trip. I haven't had a 3-day one I can remember. If my wife would agree to a 3-day trip I will take the chance and sign up for a 1/2 day lesson.

 

I don't have any personal experience with ski instructions. My guess from observation, and advice for total newbies who ask me, is that the quickest way to start enjoying skiing is to take lessons from any ski school. They will quickly be able to cruise blue groomers and have great fun. What to do from there, I don't know. I guess it depends on many things. For those who are not that into skiing, they may not want to do anything more but just have fun when they go skiing.

 

A younger, athletic colleague of mine decided to take his family skiing for the first time last year. Knowing my enthusiasm for the sport, he asked me for advice and was skeptical when I told him they should all spend at least the first whole day taking lessons. He said he had been watching youtube and "felt pretty good". As a good scientist, the guy decided to experiment. His wife and two kids were put in school while he put his youtube-acquired knowledge to practice. They had a better time and did better than he. 

post #46 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckT View Post

... There are at least three very different multi-day programs I want to attend when life permits....

For strong intermediates or better, a freeride or steep and deep type camp can be a very good add-on to, say, a race camp.  You'll find as regards weight distribution and stance width, say, that there's not a big difference, although the terrain and focus is very different.  Interestingly, at say a steeps camp, generally some of the skiers who are initially most challenged are those stuck in a wide stance who try to be two-footed everywhere. 

post #47 of 53

Hi Chuck, as a frequent Mammoth goer, I am trying to figure what slope that was in your video. Nice smooth skiing BTW. I want to guess the wall off chair 1 broadway express. thanks

Agreen

post #48 of 53
Thread Starter 

Hi agreen, fellow Mammoth skier. It's been more than two years, but if I remember correctly, that was off Chair 5 which is not as steep and narrow as the Gravy Chute off Chair 1.

 

We were up there on the 8th and 9th and it was fabulous. This season is shaping up to be great (knock on wood). Thanks for the kind words. Chuck

post #49 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

... regards weight distribution and stance width, say, that there's not a big difference, although the terrain and focus is very different.  Interestingly, at say a steeps camp, generally some of the skiers who are initially most challenged are those stuck in a wide stance who try to be two-footed everywhere. 

I am glad to hear that. I had a surprising (to me) experience a week ago that may be related to this.

 

I brought two pairs with the intention of skiing on the fatter skis (Legend 94) on whatever was left of the snow off piste in the morning and the Nordica Speedmachice 14 in the PM on groomers. We didn't arrive early enough and had to park a bit too far from the lift. I was too lazy to walk and decided to slide on mellow groomers with the wife and kids on the 94 in the PM. I was surprised that I actually had to be conscious about not putting weight on the inside ski for it not to veer off and get myself off balance when I skied faster, much more so than with narrower skis. I confirmed the impression the next day with the Nordica. I thought fat skis would make it easier to slide two-footed which explains the strong admonition not to use them for learning. My experience seems to indicate that they are very good for learning because they are less tolerant when tipped on edge on mellow groomers. They seem to tolerate my sloppiness more in deeper, albeit heavy, snow. I will probably get slammed for this heresy, but that's how I felt.

post #50 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckT View Post

Hi agreen, fellow Mammoth skier. It's been more than two years, but if I remember correctly, that was off Chair 5 which is not as steep and narrow as the Gravy Chute off Chair 1.

 

We were up there on the 8th and 9th and it was fabulous. This season is shaping up to be great (knock on wood). Thanks for the kind words. Chuck

Thanks Chuck. Cant wait to get up there. I was actually thinking of the run "the Wall". Its that short section with medium pitch on the way to the mid chalet when you get off of chair one to skiers right.

More on topic... I did take an advanced group lesson there for around $100. It was midweek so no one was there even with fresh snow. I ended up with a half day private lesson cause no one else wanted to go to the top. They were all signed up for the intermediate lesson. Sweet deal and i learned a ton and the price was right. Keep up the good work.

Agreen

post #51 of 53

Chuck, I don't know if you wanted feedback on you skiing or not, but if you do here is one thing to consider. Just because you lift and flex the old outside leg does not mean you are flexing to release. If you extend the inside leg, you are still extending. Difficult to see from behind, but I think that happens in at least a few of your turns.

post #52 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Chuck, I don't know if you wanted feedback on you skiing or not, but if you do here is one thing to consider. Just because you lift and flex the old outside leg does not mean you are flexing to release. If you extend the inside leg, you are still extending. Difficult to see from behind, but I think that happens in at least a few of your turns.

I sure want and appreciate feedback, Jamt. Thanks for taking the time. I will pay attention to my release by flexing, head, shoulder, and pole movements next time

post #53 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckT View Post

 fatter skis (Legend 94).... I thought fat skis would make it easier to slide two-footed which explains the strong admonition not to use them for learning. My experience seems to indicate that they are very good for learning because they are less tolerant when tipped on edge on mellow groomers. ...

Fat skis are sort of like the phrase "reef fish" these days -- you need more design info to tell you what you're dealing with.  But, yeah, assuming you are willing to ski a little faster to power the ski up (a big if for some people) some fat skis with titanal carve real well.  Our kids generally start racing on skis that, relative to our kids' size, are proportionately fatter than what we as adults often ski pow on. 

 

Transition:  I kind of left this out of some of my earlier posts, and punted by suggesting that you start even one turn at a time and look at tracks.  Key word on transition if you have a carving emphasis is patience. 

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