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# Rotational Balance. Is it a axis or a plane of balance or both?

Just trying to get some ideas on how to explain Rotational Balance with a good definition and simple explanations?

Thanks,
Fs^^

Can you explain your intent for the term of "rotational balance"? Are you looking for a way to explain methods of rotating or ways to measure the amount of rotation applied?
Intent, yes, that would help! As would a definition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuntionalSkier

Just trying to get some ideas on how to explain Rotational Balance with a good definition and simple explanations?

Thanks,
Fs^^

Rotational balance is the method a top uses to stay on it's point spinning and i don't see the connection to skiing. Can you please explain further where you heard this as applied to skiing ?  My first thought is that it would incur balance over your feet  while doing stunts or when spinning during aerials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuntionalSkier

Just trying to get some ideas on how to explain Rotational Balance with a good definition and simple explanations?

Thanks,
Fs^^

Rotational Balance is just that, and its 1 of the primary planes of balance.  However its perhaps not as intuitive as the others.

I like to think of Rotational Balance as "Rotational Stability".  It is effectivley the ability to control the amount of rotation our upper body experciences vs. the amount of rotation our lower body experiences.

We should be able to rotate our legs left and right, while keeping our upper body stable...if we can achieve this, we are said to be in "rotational balance".  If on the other hand, turning our legs causes our upper body to rotate also (and we dont want it to), then we are said to be "out of rotational balance".

Here is a classic example of some skiers who are "out of rotational balance":  Note if you skip to about 1:20 or so, the guy in green almost comes out of the stop/turn backwards! But there are rotational balance issues throughout, very easy to see on "green jacket guy".  I am sure most of you will recognise this "look", upper intermediates often have this same issue in powder....getting "spun around" at the end of the turns is classic "out of rotational balance".

This is abit simplified, and there is abit more to it, but generally what I wrote above is the idea.

Ahhh, so the term is a Canadian thing, also known as upper/lower body separation.

You can begin introducing this with bootwork where you rotate the foot by rotating the femur without rotating the pelvis. You can amplify this in a wedge on shallow terrain if you place the hands at the tops of the femurs (fingers forward, thumbs back) where they connect with the pelvis and feel the femurs move in steered wedge turns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson

Ahhh, so the term is a Canadian thing, also known as upper/lower body separation.

Its actually a pretty global racer thing...but no...its not really the same as upper/lower body separation...they are related certainly....but one clearly sits within the skill set of "stance and balance" and the other sits within the skill set of "pivoting".

My description was focused on the "core" aspect which is a function of achieving proper upper/lower separation as you point out.  But as I mentioned the concept of rotation balance actually covers anything that induces a rotational force on the skier....generally if we are skiing well, its not an issue, but if we get things wrong a rather dramatic rotational moment can be exerted on the skier (typically from the BOS (for whatever reason) no longer redirecting the COM, but "rotating it") creating some rather dramatic consequences.  This video has lots of examples of were rotational balance was lost........you can see it as the skier literally goes "spinning" out of control.

What is amazing is in most of these the skiers are definatley trying to avoid the spin...yet the "rotational moment" wins out.

Some good examples in the below vid as well: 1:45 and 2:50-end in particular.

Edited by Skidude72 - 12/11/12 at 6:50am

Oh no, another skiing term?  Never heard of "Rotational Balance" in skiing before but that may not mean much.

Rather than perhaps trying to describe this "new" term, would it be possible to describe these actions with terms we already have that I believe describe these moves?

I am a strong advocate that we as an Instructor community, and skiers in general, should read and adopt the definitions as defined by "The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing".  It is the only thing I have seen out there, in print, available to everyone, that has some fairly descriptive definitions of skiing terminology.  You may not agree with them, nor understand them but they do provide a common reference point for everyone.  If something relevant does not exist or something in it is not well said, then the process is to have that discussion with the owner author / publisher for inclusion in the next edition.

I tend to agree with Kneale on it is upper/lower body seperation but see alot of what are considered Rotary Mechanisms in the Encyclopedia which can cause it.  A complex topic in itself for sure.

So to me, much of what is described seems like counter-rotation, rotation and ILS.  And maybe just plain out of control!

By the way, any news on the Fourth Edition of the Encyclopedia?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhawk

Oh no, another skiing term?  Never heard of "Rotational Balance" in skiing before but that may not mean much.

Rather than perhaps trying to describe this "new" term, would it be possible to describe these actions with terms we already have that I believe describe these moves?

I am a strong advocate that we as an Instructor community, and skiers in general, should read and adopt the definitions as defined by "The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing".  It is the only thing I have seen out there, in print, available to everyone, that has some fairly descriptive definitions of skiing terminology.  You may not agree with them, nor understand them but they do provide a common reference point for everyone.  If something relevant does not exist or something in it is not well said, then the process is to have that discussion with the owner author / publisher for inclusion in the next edition.

I tend to agree with Kneale on it is upper/lower body seperation but see alot of what are considered Rotary Mechanisms in the Encyclopedia which can cause it.  A complex topic in itself for sure.

So to me, much of what is described seems like counter-rotation, rotation and ILS.  And maybe just plain out of control!

By the way, any news on the Fourth Edition of the Encyclopedia?

Snowhawk,

Rotational Balance is hardly new....its at least 20 years old, and in fairly common use amongst race coaching circles.

Further - it is not a "move" - just a concept, like "yaw".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaw_%28rotation%29   its main benefit is pedagogy.

Lastly preferable to the Encyclopedia of Skiing is to use a dictionary to define terms. All CSIA uses of words conform to the dictionary.

Having said all that...I totally agree with your premise.  All these people making up their own words and definitions for things is BS.

Skidude,

To your point, I tried finding "Rotational Balance" in wikipedia to no avail.  Then Googled it and got a host of detailed engineering links.  I am not by any means or desire a racer so I am sure there are a bunch of terms and ideas I have never heard of before.

However, I can see where the concept could apply in skiing.

I haven't seen the term used a lot, but it is kind of obvious what it means IMO.

It's a plane of balance in the CSIA world, so all CSIA instructors know of it. Skidude's examples are great.

Pivot slips, when done correctly, would help with this (and other things) IMO...

I was taught "upper lower body seperation", though rotational balance works for me as well. There are a lot of different terms which describe the same, or similar concepts/movements, it can be confusing at times

zentune

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