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Fixing Bad Habits - Inside Ski

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 

Last season I started riding my inside ski in turns as a reaction to a knee problem. I have had the knee fixed but I still have the bad habit. I have been trying to train myself out of it but I am not having much luck.


I have tried some exercises:

  • lifting inside ski
  • no poles
  • aeroplane turns
  • Spear turns!? (lifiting inside ski up and over the outside ski)


Are there any other drills or techniques that are good for this specific problem?


Are there any good techniques for breaking a habit that is done subconsiously (muscle memory).

post #2 of 31

If you are finding yourself on the inside ski, I bet you are leaning in on those turns.


One cure is to think of projecting the new inside hip (the hip over that pesky inside ski) up and forward at the start of the turn, early and high in the turn.  I've heard this move described as "hinging" the hip, as in a door opening on hinges, swinging forward.  That might help.


Another drill is the Schlopy drill.  You put one hand on your hip, pushing it down to the inside of the turn (outside hip) and you reach forward and up with the other hand.  Raising the inside arm and reaching forward with it raises the inside hip and projects it forward, if done decisively.  It's the second drill in this video by 4ster, one of Epci's regulars:



Best of luck!

post #3 of 31

Moved to Ski Instruction and Coaching for more visibility.

post #4 of 31

Greetings Emma and welcome to the instruction forum!


Are you weighting the inside ski for both left and right turns? 



For the lifting the inside ski exercise, have you tried just lifting the tail and also tipping the tip where it stays in contact with the snow. If you do that and hold the tail off the snow until after you turn through the fall line, you can't be over weighting the inside ski. If you can't do that drill, I'd recommend 1000 steps and 1000 shuffles drills where you either step from foot to foot or shuffle your feet back and forth constantly throughout every turn. For the stepping version of the drill, try stepping from foot to foot both as fast as you can and in slow motion (where you count 1001 [for one second] to go on one foot, then 1002 [for another second] to switch to the other foot).


When it is easy to do the lifting exercise above, try tracer turns. This is where you set your weight 99% on one foot and let the other foot just stay in contact with the snow (1% weight). This will cause you to make one turn with 99% weight on the outside ski and the next turn with 99% weight on the inside ski. It's possible to ski smoothly with your weight on the inside ski, but you can't do this drill easily if you lean to the inside to do it. Try this exercise first with your dominant leg as the 99% leg, then switch. This drill really reinforces the positive feeling from using weight on the outside foot. By always keeping your weight on one foot, there is no need to transfer weight to get the feedback.



There are lots of tricks for breaking muscle memory movements, but the basic piece is that replacement movements have to get muscle memory built through repetition. One common problem is that you often can't get rid of the old movement until you make it unnecessary (e.g. you can't just stop leaning to the inside - you have to do something new to make leaning to the inside unnecessary). Instructors spend a lot of effort trying to find the "root cause" of problems (e.g. why are you leaning to the inside, why are you doing the thing that causes you to lean inside, etc.). Many times we have to change one or more parameters (e.g. flatten the slope, change the speed, widen the turn). Many times we have to walk backwards in the chain of events of a turn and do something different there to achieve change later in the turn. Sometimes we have to borrow from strengths in one skill (e.g. edging) to make movements developing another skill (e.g. pressure) easier to do. Sometimes all we need to do is to isolate the movement that needs to be learned via a drill. In normal skiing, many movements need to be done in harmony. This makes it hard to sense one specific movement. Drills often intensify the feedback from a specific movement.

post #5 of 31

My question would be, what's wrong with weighting your inside ski?  With carving skis, it is nice to do this, as provides more edge.  What probelm is it actually causing you?  are you falling over, catching your inside edge or something...  I actually try to get most while teaching, to have a little pressure on the inside ski. 


if you feel it is a problem, try to focus on floating the inside ski -  by this i mean have a fairly wide stance in your turn and focus on trying to just keep even tip and tail, floating only pressure on the inside ski -  It may sound difficult, but focusing on keeping that inside ski flat on the snow while carving, almost groving that outside ski.  remember to keep your shoulders/hips open facing down the hill -  this will setup you body ove rhte down hill ski more, and like i said if you focus solely on floating the uphill ski, this may help position the body better to not ride your inside ski.


Personally i would ahve thought spear turns would have doe it for you, but maybe it is more boday positon to cause you to over ride the inside.



post #6 of 31
Thread Starter 

Hi Guys

It is mainly on my left turns when my outside ski is my right leg, this is the knee which i injured and ended up getting surgery on.  Part of the problem is it took so long (18 months) for the Dr's to work out what was wrong with my knee i started to use my left leg more to compensate and has lead me to not trust it/protecting it not just in skiing but all the sports i am involved in which is not good.


Suicide - i agree with using some inside ski especially with caving skis is fine and does help gain a better edge but i have been finding my then outside ski is disappearing off in a direction which i do not want.  Which suggest that i am over weighting my inside ski and not applying enough force to my out side ski to stop it disappearing.


One of my buddies has got some film of me and when we where reviewing it is shows me on my inside too much and is leading to banking/tipping so this is suggesting that my body position is off which could well be why i am struggling so much to get off being weighted to much on that ski.  Will post the film when i have got my hands on it and let you guys have a look.


Thanks for the advice it is much appreciated.


post #7 of 31



Yep, diverging outside ski is a classic symptom. Is the knee 100% fully healed? Are you skiing with a brace? Normally I don't recommend skiing with a brace if you are fully healed, but wearing a simple neoprene brace might bolster your confidence until you get that outside ski weighting back. If you're not 100% healed and/or wearing a (cough) real brace, I recommend the tracer turns, but only on your left/strong leg until the brace comes off. Perfect the movements before you test your strength.


Here's another drill for torture purposes:

Left traverse garlands - Traverse to the left making garlands (little turns along the traverse line). When you are turning uphill overweight your right foot and tip the knee into the hill to cause the ski to turn uphill only from edging (no steering). Step onto your left foot to come out of the uphill turn and pick up speed. Then step back onto the right foot and tip it to start the next garland. Think of this as a bunch of left turns over and over again. Feel the ski turning you with your weight on the ski.

post #8 of 31

Are you doing physical therapy and strength training off the slopes?  I think if you can work your way up to doing various balance, strength, or high intensity plyometric type exercises 1-legged within the safety of the gym, then you'll be able to trust the knee first off the slopes then on the slopes.

post #9 of 31
Thread Starter 

The knee is  three quarters to fully healed according to the physio i was seeing in the UK and i don't ware any braces just occasionally tape when it is having an "off day".  Until October i was doing physio, slack lining, wobble board and other things like that.  Having just moved out to North America I have to say things have slipped on that whole front as there have been many things to sort and organize since getting out here!  This is something i am planning to remedy but putting hours in at the gym when you have worked a 7h ski school day will be tough.  I know i do need to put more muscle on the knee as it has lost what was there and there was never that much there to begin with.


I have been doing some ski tip on snow rest of the ski in the air drill and the drill given to me by liquid feet plus the usual 1000 steps routine which i use as a normal warm up drill.  I had forgotten about the garlands drill have used it a long time ago will give it a crack in the week when my ski hill is quite and maybe without a ft and a half of pow on it! (not that i am complaining)



post #10 of 31
I would offer -

It sounds like you are using your inside leg as an "in rigger" (More under you and flat than outside next to the other ski and weighted). Often this is because the skier won't commit to the outside ski. Since you won't commit, you need the in rigger to hold you up. You have proven to yourself you can by lifting the inside ski, but sometimes the confidence isn't there for different reasons.

Along with the great drill you've been given above, consider just doing a few turns with your legs closer together through the entire turn than you would typically do. Maybe put a nerf ball between your knees or something like that.

Folks tend to protect the injured item and you might be subconsciously skiing more defensively than is typical; lower and possibly getting into the back seat too and that could be enabling you to keep using the in rigger. Do some drills to. Make sure you aren't in the back seat too.

In the video LF provide of 4ster, you can see him pressing on his inside knee with his hands to get the inside ski on edge. That drill would be helpful to you as it sounds like your inside ski is not being edged as much as the outside ski.

post #11 of 31

Although there is some good speculation going on above, without actually seeing you ski, it is only that. There are many reasons why you may find yourself on your inside ski at times--some indicative of a problem, some absolutely not. My suspicion is that it is very likely not something you will "cure" (if, indeed, that is what you need) through "drills"--particularly just random drills.

That's not to say that any of the exercises and focuses that have been suggested won't help your skiing. Anything that challenges your balance will improve it., and can be good if you practice it in the right context and with the right purpose. (But every exercise has something "wrong" with it too--otherwise it would be skiing!)

EpicSki can be a fantastic resource for you, but you'll get much more focused and relevant advice if we can actually see you ski a little. Even a few still shots would be better than nothing, but if you can get a friend to shoot a little video and post it to YouTube, it will help a lot.

Welcome to EpicSki!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #12 of 31

I`ve been through 2 ACLs and I think it takes time to get full strength (and confidence) back...I rehabed very well after both of them, but think that you really have to be 12+ months post-op before you go from 70-85% to 90-95+% back.  I got cleared to ski in Feb after the 2nd one, but feel so much better this season that I did last spring.


Mix in time with the drills and suggestions above and you should be fine.

post #13 of 31
Thread Starter 


Sorry it has taken me a while to get the video, life is a little crazy with ski camps and all the fun and games associated with Holiday skiing.  This was shot tonight after a full day of teaching we have the advantages of night skiing.

So from looking at the video, i can spot that my knees are "A" framing (have been having real issues with boots for many reasons, the boot cuffs have been "canted") and on my left turns i am not angulating very well.


Will try and get some film from the front tomorrow afternoon/evening.




post #14 of 31

Yeah there's definitely a lot of "A-framing".  That's something you should try to fix (I know you said you had gone to a bootfitter to fix it, but it doesn't appear to be fixed, so I would go to a reputable bootfitter and get that figured out).


I noticed that you are sometimes starting your turns with your skis rather far apart and then correcting yourself as you begin turning.  You do this by sliding your inside ski horizontally to almost match your outside one.  Simultaneous leg movements are probably better here, instead of moving your inside ski after you have begun turning.


Also, work on moving your center of mass into your turns more.  From my POV (and I could be wrong), it looks like your COM is kind of staying static throughout your skiing.  Utilizing a better pole plant would help this.  Instead of just pole planting like you are now, think of your pole plant as the start of your next turn, and use it to "reach out" and move your COM into your next turn.  Your pole plant should be indicative of where you want to go next, or where you want to turn.  You don't want to plant horizontal to your body, nor vertical, but rather in between, maybe at a 45 degree angle diagonal and out in front of you.  When skiing, try visualizing getting your COM through a door that's diagonal and in front of you, or "forwagonal" to you.  You have to move through that door to turn efficiently.  


These are just my first thoughts.  There are many people on this site that have way more credibility and knowledge than me, so I hope others chime in as well.  Best of luck with your knee and your skiing.

post #15 of 31
So my speculation was completely off; no in rigging, but your inside leg is going along for the ride. Eastskier44's comments with regards is what I'm seeing too. As a drill for this, try initiating your turn with the new inside leg. Put that leg in control. You can do some static drills where you keep edging the inside ski until it is fully on edge and your knee is pressing to the outside. If you can have someone let you press you knee laterally against their hand until you move it would be good.

You might want to move from lifting the inside ski tail to the outside ski tail too. This forces you to weight the inside ski and use it to control the turn.

Do some drills for long leg/short leg. You aren't extending your outside leg. It is staying flexed and is keeping (along with folding at the waist) you from getting forward.

It does look like you need some boot work. I don't know whether it is canting the boot soles or aligning the boot cuffs that is needed. I wouldn't do anything until you do some drills to get the inside leg right because what I'm seeing might just be a symptom of that. I did notice that right from the start when you lift your right ski in the air, you still A frame. This could be an illusion from you not extending your outside leg.

I'm not sure I would worry too much on what is happening on your upper half until you straighten out the lower half. You might end up fixing a symptom of the lower half that would have gone away anyway. You do seem to be folding at the waist slightly though; that isn't helping matters.

Keep at it. Once you sort this out everything else is easier,

post #16 of 31
Thread Starter 

Well having skied a few evening after work in the past week "forwagonal" seems to be helping.  I am off to session after work run by a Level 3 buddy of mine tomorrow night which is ski improvement with video analysis so we shall see what get brought up there!

post #17 of 31

Wow - there's a lot to sort through here! (nice eye eastskier!)


First and foremost is the boot fit. Can you get 3 indoor pics of you standing in your boots in shorts with your feet hip width, inside hip width and then outside hip width apart? As you shift your stance width, feel your knees move as you try to reestablish a flat foot to floor contact (make sure the pressure is in the center of the foot laterally). This is the kind of movement that has to occur as you change edges (I call this knee "wiggle" below). I suspect this why you are having so much trouble with your inside ski.


It's hard to correlate the ski edge angles to the leg/boot angles due to the quality/lighting of the video, but it looks to me like you need more than cuff canting. I'm seeing a lot of sequential edge changing and wild response of the inside ski when you try to weight the outside ski. It looks like it's just not engaging for you because of a need for canting. I can imagine why you would want to change stance width and lean to the inside and overweight the inside ski (i.e. just to get the darn thing to engage).


It looks like you have an old initiation habit of launching the upper body into the turns. Your doing a good job of fighting that habit with an up move and foot steering into the new turn, but this is a dead end for performance improvement. If boot fitting was not an issue, I'd recommend working on incorporating lower body tipping into your turn initiation movements. The first step would be to finish the previous turn by steering into a more countered position. Your current turns have a bit of park and ride where your hips and shoulders stay square to the skis through the end of the turn. Let the skis turn more than your upper body so that your upper body faces more to the inside of the next turn before you start it. This body position will enable a movement of the core across the skis for initiation instead of the up move you currently have. That kind of core movement is going to enable lower body tipping that will start early new edge engagement of the inside ski  ....  IF you have proper alignment. If not, you're still going to need to steer the feet to get the skis to turn.


Just for giggles, I'd like to see you try to do cowboy railroad track turns on a flat beginner run. Cowboy turns are where you purposely keep your feet greater than shoulder width apart. If you don't move your core to enable lower body tipping, you will be forced to pivot your feet for turns and it will feel ugly. Keep your turns very very narrow (just try to change edges vs make real turns). A flat run will keep you from picking up too much speed. Experiment with different timings of making edge change happen by:

1) moving your hips laterally from over one foot to over the other foot and

2) adding knee wiggle like the movement from the indoor pic recommended above using more wiggle on the inside leg (this should enhance tipping) (legs needs to be bent to enable wiggle).

Remember that no foot steering is allowed and no up movements! This drill should either be impossible or give you a big aha moment.


You've got some great positions through the belly of the turn where you are riding the edge of the ski. We want to get this sensation to happen throughout more of the turn, but it's not going to happen until you can get that inside ski to behave properly and predictably. Eventually, we want to see the entire leg turning underneath the upper body (femur rotation) vs just the feet turning underneath the legs. This will open up a whole new world for you.

post #18 of 31

For visibility, this is the boot problem (before even looking at canting) http://www.epicski.com/t/116521/trouble-fitting-liners-skinny-ankles-and-heels


will post some more pictures when we are home later

post #19 of 31

Thanks set,


It's worse than I thought. Get boot issues resolved first Emma. Whine, complain, cry, beg, borrow, steal - whatever it takes and then do more. Just make sure you get your lateral alignment checked as well as getting the sizing issues addressed. If I was in your liners, I'd be scouting for a pair of used and packed out boots in a size smaller/race model for a plan B.

post #20 of 31

Emma, I have ridiculously skinny feet, ankles, heels, low instep, you name it, along with a hypermobile ankle and foot. I got Zipfit liners last year that have locked the heels in place, and this year added custom Superfeet Korks to the mix. It has made my changes from edge-to-edge so much faster/better. It also has helped my knees a lot (I have mistracking patellas.) We ladies tend to A frame a lot anyway. I'm no instructor but I have a feeling your boots are your biggest challenge right now!!

post #21 of 31
Thread Starter 

Here are some rather fetching pictures of me rocking ski boots, long socks and short shorts!!!  (no private requests)


Hip width apart




wider than hips



narrower than hips


post #22 of 31

Caveat emptor: I am by no means an alignment expert. This is more of a test of my understanding than a pronouncement. Let's see what the real boot experts say.


What I see is a significantly stronger right leg and a left leg that needs more canting than the right. Your left boot cuff is canted more?




This is closer to what we want to see with a neutral stance (knees over the center of the toes/foot). Note the left leg line is slightly more to the inside of over the center of the toe.




The difference between the legs here is small, but both are well inside the center of the toes. I may be imagining things, but I'm thinking I'm seeing a bit of a duck footed stance here. If so, this may be a natural reaction to knock kneed'ness.




The knees should still be over the center of the toes in a wide stance to maintain centered pressure under the foot. A naturally aligned person with their knees in this position would feel more pressure on the inside of their feet, even though the boots are flat on the floor. I suspect most of your problem here is alignment, but that you also still had some weight to the insides of the feet here. Try playing with wiggling your knees to find the full range of lateral motion possible/required to bring the boot edges off the floor. It would be interesting if this helped you find a different "center" for this wider stance.


If you compare this stance above with your knees forced wider (to be centered over the toes), you'll feel a tension in your legs required to get there. Compare sliding your hips laterally to cause your boots to tip on edge a) with your knees positioned as above) and b) with your knees centered over your toes. You will probably sense unequal edge change in one (a or b) more than the other and moving laterally in one direction (right or left) more than the other. My guess is that you'll recognize the same kind of tension and "sense of unequal edge" sensation in your left turns on the slopes.

post #23 of 31



I going to make a recommendation that you practice different side slip exercises, to understand what a neutral stance feels like.  Do 5 to 10 feet every run each side and as you progress, add in a 360 in each direction once a day.


What this does is gets you in feel with your skis and how they react to your input and balance.  (I had an old ski instructor force me to do this for a week).


Just to clarify I broke my shin many years back and there is a definite misalignment between the knee and ankle joint.   Do I have special orthopedics or special cants? No!, I just know what balanced feels like and automatically correct.


This does take a bit of time, but you will be surprised on how quickly things improve and on how much more in tune to your balance you will be.  The outcome is you will be a better skier.


My take is the less you do to the equipment and the more your self correct the better you will be.   Remember its about muscle training and muscle memory that is the fix in most cases.

Edited by oldschoolskier - 1/7/13 at 1:58pm
post #24 of 31

 I think suicide is on to something regarding weighting the inside ski.


One of the biggest reasons I think skiers fall apart in the bumps or powder is because they dont weight the inside ski. They step from their big toe edge to thier other big toe edge into the wedge coming out of parrellel & taking the body out of the stacked position. If weight is on the uphill ski it is kinda hard to step on it.



 If I had to choose to between only being able to ski with weight on the outside ski or weight on both skis. I would choose both skis because a short turn 2 footed release brush carve allows one to ski everthing on the mountain.

post #25 of 31

Great comments above and many more detailed than I'm about to comment on, but I would work on training the body and muscles as some above have eluded to.  The boots and canting and everything, yeah, get it fixed and aligned if you can.  Bottom line is you need to be comfortable in them.  So after seeing the video of you skiing - Nice skiing, much better than an average skier.  What I noticed immediately was lack of up and down movement, as another commentor mentioned.  My ssuggestion is to go back to basics and retrain your body to get to carving - start with stance and balance with snow plows - simple red light/green light straightline down a gental slope ensuring equal weighting when plowing to a stop.  This should provide you with feedback on equal weighting.  Once you know you can straightline add a slow yellow to the mix.  Once you feel comfortable, start adding turing still in plow.  Then progress to simple parallel turns, sliding the inside ski across the snow - No Carving or edging -  I suspect you will get the feeling back regarding the weighting and once comfortable progress back to carving.  You may feel akward and embarrassed to start, but back to basics works for most recovering from injury.


One more point - as a static exercise place yourself parallel to a wall, with arm straight out palm on the wall - now lean in toward the wall varying the weighting on both feet - practise both sides and compare - train yourself to try and matach good side to bad, and you will have a quicker time getting back to those carved turns we all crave.




post #26 of 31
Thread Starter 

You guys are awesome and there is so much help coming for you lot its fantastic and very much appreciated.


I have finally managed to get a day off or two, after the manic rush that occurs over Winter Holidays.  Right, I went to whistler yesterday as i had been having real issues with my boots just not fitting and feeling right and its has since transpired i have been fitted into the wrong size boot so am going to start from scratch on them and put my current ones up for sale as soon as i have some replacement ones.  The place i am getting my new ones from also do full alignment etc as well as part of the package so will get that done too.  So that's boots being taken care of.


Now skiing - yes its not all about equipment its is also down to the skier and how your body behaves and remembers things, mine has got a bit out of shape and i have been trying to remedy this even when i am teaching etc.  Trying to initiate the start of turns with pivoting my feet and not just forcing them.  I have been trying to take it back to basics when teaching and do a couple of runs at the end of the day with more advanced drills such as javelin turns down what is our step up from the bunny hill so a nice long green.  I also agree that it isn't all about weight on just one ski but i have to say from what i know and please correct me if i am wrong the CSIA like you to be weighted on your outside ski when you are teaching.  I know that teaching and what happens in real life is not exactly the same but sometimes you have to show people what they what to see and except that its not always that way.


I actually do a fair few 360's though out the day as it is a good way to see what your class is up to behind you and if they are doing as you have asked.  I know i favor one side more over the other but for the life of me i cant not think of which side it is while sat here.  I will work on doing an even number of left and right ones now however.




post #27 of 31

Here's one that will throw you for a loop.  I was shown this one at Sunshine in the mid '90's.


Ideal slope black diamond, smooth, wide, groomed and empty!  Inside ski turns arms and legs outstretched like a star fish.  Slow speeds its OK, cruising at 60 to 70km you really learn about proper inside ski edging and commitment (pun intended).  Yes, you will think twice when you are about to try this.


If you don't bite it in both directions you are doing really well (BTW I ate snow the first time I tried the left leg (I wasn't committed eek.gif), right leg was easy!).  That run is forever etched in my mind as I learned sequencing, commitment, balance and technique (plus when things go wrong at that speed in that position you'll know very quickly biggrin.gif).



post #28 of 31
Thread Starter 

Sound fun.  I am not convinced there is a run in my resort suitable but will have a chat with my buddy's and see if we can come up with some where, we are very little with blacks i would class more as purple!  But that said it is a fun hill to work at with lovely people.  As for eating snow that doesn't bother me, i did a monumental amount of that in early December up in whistler having not skied power in any form for 18 months plus.  My friend had a very good laugh that day as i became the perpetual abominable snowman.


The post has arrived since i last posted today and my last Christmas present with it a Sweetspot ski trainer!  Am a little bit scared of it as i feel like i may well end up eating carpet.  This has come from my very supportive boyfriend who i think plans to spend most of the evening laughing at me as i try it out.  He found out about it from a forum on here so now off to investigate.

post #29 of 31
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

Here's one that will throw you for a loop.  I was shown this one at Sunshine in the mid '90's.


Ideal slope black diamond, smooth, wide, groomed and empty!  Inside ski turns arms and legs outstretched like a star fish.  Slow speeds its OK, cruising at 60 to 70km you really learn about proper inside ski edging and commitment (pun intended).  Yes, you will think twice when you are about to try this.


If you don't bite it in both directions you are doing really well (BTW I ate snow the first time I tried the left leg (I wasn't committed eek.gif), right leg was easy!).  That run is forever etched in my mind as I learned sequencing, commitment, balance and technique (plus when things go wrong at that speed in that position you'll know very quickly biggrin.gif).




Yes, there is something to stretching that lifted leg out there like a starfish, rather than holding it near the other leg and flexing at the knee to get the ski off the snow.  Does anyone know the mechanics that explain the differences you'll feel when you do it both ways?

post #30 of 31

oldschoolskier -  found this gem on a google search...


I love doing these in all sorts of terrain...  I think I saw Glen Plake doing something like this in a mogal field in one of the Warren Miller movies - License to thrill I think...  It is a great exercise at high speeds as you say.  Love it! 


EmmaSki - You are right, I do not think CSIA promotes inside weighting (as yet perhaps) in teaching, but the racing groups sure do, and besides, we are not looking at teaching this, we are looking at helping you regain YOUR proper form.  What I understand we are discussing here is trying to get your left and right turns to match or be balanced since that is what seems more of the issue than the weighting of the inside ski, and if that involves "over correction" to get the proper feel, so be it.  The more comfortable you become at balancing or syncronizing your left and right turns, you can work your way back to teaching to the CSIA method...




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